First cousin marriage

[Danceswithwhippets]

I don’t think I know (family or wider) anyone in a first cousin marriage.
I listened to this interesting podcast.
There is quite an ick factor about it -the podcaster (a “data journalist” -I didn’t know there was such a thing but I think we need them!) refers to it as a taboo. I suppose that maybe correct, if you do regard it as a part of the incest taboo.
She suggests the ick factor may be a reflection of racism, as first cousin marriage is now unusual in western societies.
What I find interesting is that although in western societies it’s largely frowned upon, few western countries legally prohibit it or restrict it.
Listen to what she says is the genetic evidence about risk -she seems to consider, for first cousin marriages, a doubling of risk of a major genetic problem from 3 to 4% (ie to 6 to 8%) is not great. I wouldn’t agree with that.
Any geneticists, or for that matter any first cousin marriages out there?

It's on BBC Sounds
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0ch1vn3#xtor=CS8-1000-%5BPromo_Box%5D-%5BNews_Promo%5D-%5BNews_Promo%5D-%5BPS_SOUNDS~N~p0ch1vn3~P_AmINormalCousinMarriage_SEG_PNC%5D

2 of my exh cousins got married - they were 1st cousins

That’s like saying you know an 80 year-old smoker who’s as fit as a fiddle. Consanguinity increases the probability of congenital abnormalities, it doesn’t make them inevitable.

I wouldn't disagree with either of you @Hoppinggreen @Hearthnhome

But when talking about taking the step of turning things we deem morally dubious into something which is actually illegal - how do we decide and who gets to decide, where to draw the line?

I've seen posts on MN where it's been said that people who know there is a high risk of DC having genetic defects or disabilities shouldn't have children. The poster gets absolutely shot down and torn to shreds for daring to play god and tell people they can or can't have children.

I don't want to stifle debate, I would rather encourage it, but there are a lot of double standards around this issue and we should be asking ourselves why that is?

I agree @ChiefWiggumsBoy it's the language that makes it so emotive isn't it?

We associate the word incest with negative connotations so immediately that becomes a scenario that makes people uncomfortable!

One of my best friends works in a genetics related role at Birmingham Women's Hospital. The cousin issue is substantial and getting more frequent.

It definitely is a problem that needs addressing. We don’t do anyone any favours by pretending it isn’t an issue in certain communities and cultures - we know it is, and unfortunately it’s the children and their families who end up suffering as a result. Not all cultural practices are good and safe for women and children, and this is one that should have died out with the Dark Ages. It needs to be talked about and communities made aware of the risks to their children.

We should be saying “consanguinity” rather than “inbreeding” or “incest”, which have really negative connotations.

Because people feel the need to be seen to insist that ALL people have the right to have children and to cast any judgment on that is an infringement of someone’s human rights. The right to procreate to be taken away from some disabled or with genetic condition would be seen (by some) as to be treating someone as less than human.

You aren’t allowed to say certain people should not have kids. It’s seen as taking a persons human rights from them.

Marrying your cousin to have children, is not viewed as a human right. The choice isn’t marry your cousin or be banned from having kids.

also as someone mention above the genetics and the genetic possible genetic outcomes aren’t always the same.

I am from one these communities where cousin marriages are more common and quite frankly the whole ‘it’s racist to disagree with a minorities cultural practice’ (as a blanket statement) is bullshit. It’s an attempt to shut down discussion and make people look the other way. My mums family is from Ireland and CF is a real concern for them. 2 cousins have it. Hence why my brother and his wife were tested.

Cousin marriages were common in many cultures. Culture should never stay exactly the same. The world changes and what was acceptable 100 years ago isn’t acceptable now. And that’s can be a good thing. Sometimes science shows us that a cultural practice isn’t the right thing. Sometimes it’s driven by changes in society, like the view of FGM. People always thought it was wrong, but no one would challenge it and you weren’t allowed to critique it ‘cause culture’.

I don’t think FGM is being dealt with well now. But I think people actually openly condemning it is a first step.

Unfortunately very common in the traveller community in ireland. Lot of birth defects

I think we need to stop equating tradition and culture with always being a good thing, because some times it absolutely isn’t.To call out something that is clearly bad is not racist, it’s standing up for people who directly suffer because of said practices- this usually means women and children.

Child brides, honour based violence, FGM and many, many more of such awful “traditions”, need to be seen for the awful things they are. These issues need to be addressed and ultimately working towards eliminating these terrible practices. Humanity over tradition, every time.

Re; Irish cousin marriage, in the Irish language cousin is “col~”, which means something like “forbidden”, which suggests that in times past the Irish had figured out that cousin marriage was a bad idea.
The word for first cousin is “col ceathar”, which I’m guessing means something like 4th (category?) forbidden, the first three categories presumably being child, parent and sibling.
Its also interesting that in many cultures, certainly in South Asia, cousin marriage between the children of two brothers is allowed, but between the children of a brother and a sister is taboo. Which suggests social reasons rather than genetic but who knows?

Interesting thread. My great uncle married a cousin and two out of their three children had disabilities as a result. He always felt guilty about this.

One of my best friends married her first cousin, who she hadn't seen growing up. They have 2 healthy children. Maybe they were very lucky?

My Aunt and Uncle were first cousins that married. They had two children who are both healthy. They subsequently divorced when my Uncle had an affair. The fall out has been immense in terms of family members falling out and divided loyalties.

Well that’s contradictory 🙄

I'm loving that story about Desert Orchid. I hadn't heard of him.

The Queen Mother asked for him to lead her centenary parade - he did, he was a bit of a show off tbh.

I wonder is there any footage of him taking pride of place lol.

Sorry, I read your post yesterday but got caught up in the other replies so forgot to ask you.

It's difficult to ban as a lot of people are married to cousins. Often these are certain ethnic groups who would feel discriminated against if it was banned.

And yes it gets worse when the couple are 'double cousins' or even 'triple cousins' or cousin marriage is present in multiple generations.

Some faiths believe that God chooses if their child is disabled and that it would have happened either way. They use other consanguineous families with healthy children as proof of arguing this.

I don’t think is particularly lucky. Problems most commonly occur when it multiple generations that have had first cousins marriages.

That’s the difficult with legalising to try and minimise the risk. No law will ever say ‘one cousin marriage per X amount of generations is fine’.

Charles Darwin married his first cousin. They had a large number of children, a few died in infancy as was usual in those days. Most of his children went on to be very successful. Every time one of them was unwell he was worried their illness could be a result of consanguinity.

Unusual in white western society but the marriage of first / second cousins is very, very common, even in the U.K, amongst certain communities (not just Bradford Asians).
If it's causing a spike in birth defects, perhaps the law should be changed?

Actually a one off cousin marriage is as likely to cause as much problems as someone marrying someone from their local area. (There are genetic conditions that are thought to be initially environmental mutations e.g. CF, thalassemia .)

However if there are lots in your family that's when you start seeing problems. e.g. Royal Families of Europe, issues in Bradford.

In short if there are any cousin marriages in your family, don't have children with any of your own relations and discourage your own children from doing so as well.

If cousins keep marrying cousins then the parents ended up being very closely genetically related.

Simplest example to think off is identical twins. So for example if a father is an identical twin, then his brother's child son and his daughter are genetically half-siblings even though they are cousins. The children can legally have children together.

There are islands, and even groups of islands, where due to the small population and lack of incomers everyone is related to each other.

Guess all these people are gross.

In the US, first cousin marriage legality is divided roughly in half.

As has been said this is extremely common in some cultures including my family which is from a very minority ethnic background in relation to the country they lived in. My grandparents were cousins and this continued right up to my generation. I feel fortunate we haven't experienced any of the health issues referred to in this thread.