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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

I think I am being completely head ducked

178 replies

Thingsneedtochange000 · 28/08/2022 22:34

Please tell me what you think of this kind of behaviour.

Last day of holiday with boyfriend. He is 50 I am 40. We are having a great time, out for lunch, by the beach, we have two separate flights to catch in the evening. We’ve spent four days together no problems.

we finish a bottle of wine at lunch, feeling a bit tipsy, I ask him to kiss me. Just a kiss on the lips not a snog. He says no. Okay. We go to the beach, hang out, laugh some more, swim in the sea. Literally leaning against each other, holding hands, making jokes. I ask him again to give me a kiss on the lips. Just a peck. He says no again. It becomes a bit of a joke. Me begging and him refusing, although I really did want to just be able to kiss him on the lips.

As we are waiting for the taxi and getting into the taxi to go to the airport the joke continues. I said please now we are about to go our separate ways I just want you to kiss me. He was very assertive, the tone completely changed and said “no sorry I really don’t want to.” I asked why. He said I just don’t want to and I have a right to not do something i don’t want to do.”

I am ashamed to say I cried because it was the last time I would see him for a while and he was talking to me as if I was forcing myself on him and he was some kind of victim of my sexual advances (bear in mind this is a three year long, emotional and sexual relationship we are in.)

as soon as I started crying (I was also a bit pissed) he sat back and said “my god, you are so pathetic.” This made me feel 100x worse I said why, why won’t you kiss me? Why is that pathetic we have done it thousands of times before? He said it’s completely pathetic I shouldn’t have to explain why.

I then got out of the taxi and stormed off with my bag and caught another taxi to the airport. He sent a series of texts saying again how my reaction is pathetic then told me he was turning off his phone and would not be checking messages. I got on the plane crying. And the same thing happens every time (the same thing but different has happened before,) I start to panic that I have done something stupid, that actually i am an awful, chaotic crazy person, who cannot respect other people’s boundaries and that I have fallen I to the trap of his stereotype of me. As this crazy, unhinged person who loses it and storms off over something small. So I send a view texts apologising for over reacting and saying how sorry I am and how I will respect his boundaries in the future. This is so confusing to me because I don’t feel I crossed his boundaries, just wanted something we normally do in the course of our relationship.

this is increasingly happening in our relationship. He will take a stand over something or over a principle. Something we usually do as matter or course or have done for several years already: like kissing, holding hands, talking about a certain topic. He will suddenly act like I am crossing a boundary and become formal with me , almost like he wants to see my reaction. The jarring nature of jovial and loving to formal, cold and spontaneous boundaries catches me off guard and I find it very upsetting and will often cry or beg him to tell me why he has suddenly become like that. He then has carte Blanche to say I am over emotional, over sensitive, getting upset over nothing. It’s just a boundary why can’t I respect that? Have I ever heard of #meetoo? He is a person who wants to respect his own principles and live by them. Why can’t I respect that?

why does he do this?

I am walking on eggshells, waiting for the next surprise or boundary, starting to fear getting it wrong. It has also created a physiological sense of heightened anxiety in me where I feel like I could lose him any second and I feel desperate to keep him. The time before when this happened, he blocked me on his phone for four days. It was hell and it was because I had caught him Out in a small white lie about his work. I wanted to understand why he did not tell the truth and was asking him gently. He accused me of being abusive and systematically abusing him over years.

please help what is going on?

OP posts:
SettingsO · 30/08/2022 01:20

why does he do this

My first reaction when I read this was that you’re both doing it. The normal reaction once he has played this trick a couple of times would be to end the relationship.

At the moment it reads like you think you can’t end the relationship because he will bad mouth you. So what’s the alternative - you stay with him forever with him progressively treating you worse?

SkiingIsHeaven · 30/08/2022 02:23

Alphavilla · 28/08/2022 22:48

He's playing with you like a cat plays with a mouse. It amuses him to distress you and watch you suffer. Almost sadistical. He's enjoying moving the goalposts to keep you confused and dependent on his whim. My advice? Get out now he's a bad one.

This 100%

wafflesandeggs · 30/08/2022 03:01

Doesn’t actually matter who the people reading this thread think is the abuser. It’s clear the relationship has run it’s course. Block and delete.

forgotoldusername · 30/08/2022 05:20

I'm so angry on your behalf!. Please send a short message "sorry, this is not working for me anymore". Then block and delete and never look back. I don't know whether it's gaslighting or what it is but it's terribly terribly cruel. Good luck OP, please find someone who loves you.

Hiphophippityskip1 · 30/08/2022 05:38

Ffs wise up and open your eyes. He is an abusive twat and you deserve better. Just end it. There is no acceptable reason for you to stay in this relationship. It will get worse. Do you want to be on this out of control emotional roller coaster for the rest of your life? Do you want marriage. A career and children? I would bet money you wont get all that with him. And just saying but how certain are you that he is exclusive to you? Just ditch the twat and don’t settle for crap

Ladybug14 · 30/08/2022 05:56

Get rid of him.

But most importantly get some therapy and learn self respect. And learn to care about yourself. You're 40 not 17

notnowkids · 30/08/2022 06:10

I was a similar relationship until a few months ago. After our split, it's only now - a few months later - that I can see properly what he was doing.

After the initial real upset of our break up, I now feel OK again. Much happier than i have been over the past few years. Massive weight off my shoulders.

I promise you will feel like this too after a few months.

Get rid of him. You are worth so much more x

EmEllGee · 30/08/2022 06:41

I don’t like being kissed. And if someone kept asking for one, it would annoy me. Surely if this was a man who kept asking a woman for a kiss, the reaction here would be totally different??

girlmom21 · 30/08/2022 06:51

@Sandra1984 a kiss isn't a basic human need ffs.

CheekyHobson · 30/08/2022 07:59

I don’t like being kissed. And if someone kept asking for one, it would annoy me. Surely if this was a man who kept asking a woman for a kiss, the reaction here would be totally different??

Of course, you’re allowed to like or dislike whatever you want. If you’re in a relationship with someone, presumably they know you don’t like being kissed and that doesn’t bother them.

However the OP’s partner has previously been perfectly fine with kissing and it’s something important to her in a relationship (as it is to many people, perhaps most). So if he has gone off kissing, it’s his responsibility to explain that respectfully. Not avoid it repeatedly, refuse to explain why and then mock his partner as pathetic when she is confused and upset.

Sandra1984 · 30/08/2022 08:47

girlmom21 · 30/08/2022 06:51

@Sandra1984 a kiss isn't a basic human need ffs.

Affection is a human need and is shown to your partner in the form of kisses and hugs ffs.

Campervangirl · 30/08/2022 09:19

He's head ducking you.
He's enjoying manipulating you and seeing your distress, he knows you're going to coming running back, it's all about him having power over you.
Take the power back, bin him, I agree to send a text "this relationship is no longer working for me" then block.
So what if he meets someone else (pity her and be glad you had a lucky escape)
So what if he tries to make you out to be crazy to other people, your reply "Oh dear, nothing as exciting as me being crazy I'm afraid, I just felt the relationship had run its course (tinkly laugh)
Relationships shouldn't be this hard, you shouldn't be walking on eggshells.
If I want my oh to kiss me I tilt my face up and he kisses me, vice versa.
We don't have discussions around boundaries 🙄
You need a mantra along the lines:
I'm important, I'm worthy, I'm loveable, no man defines me etc
Keep telling yourself this because you are important and worthy and loveable.
Please bin him off ❤️

EmEllGee · 30/08/2022 13:33

@CheekyHobson

I still think he should be allowed/or it’s acceptable to say no - for whatever reason. And to not have to give a reason. It is his body/his space. Similarly - for a woman to say no to a kiss without giving a reason, even if she’s been perfectly fine with it in the past.

Cashewlight · 30/08/2022 17:39

EmEllGee · 30/08/2022 13:33

@CheekyHobson

I still think he should be allowed/or it’s acceptable to say no - for whatever reason. And to not have to give a reason. It is his body/his space. Similarly - for a woman to say no to a kiss without giving a reason, even if she’s been perfectly fine with it in the past.

If it were in isolation maybe but based on what the op has said it isn't in isolation and is in reference to other mind games. There is also a way of delivering that message ...but his way of doing it is to demean her. If she is in tears, childish in his eyes or not, it's hardly a threat to him so at the very least he could have diplomatically handled it better, instead he continued to emotionally beat her when she was down.

CheekyHobson · 30/08/2022 18:28

@EmEllGee

I still think he should be allowed/or it’s acceptable to say no - for whatever reason. And to not have to give a reason. It is his body/his space. Similarly - for a woman to say no to a kiss without giving a reason, even if she’s been perfectly fine with it in the past.

As Cashewlight says, yes, in isolation. But when you are in a relationship, it cannot be all or even primarily about one person's 'rights', because the by the very nature of being in an ongoing relationship, both sides have rights. One person has a right to decline physical contact, and the other person has the right to have their desire for physical contact treated with respect.

If a random person comes up and asks for a kiss, of course you have a right to say no and there is no obligation to explain yourself to a person you don't know at all. Even someone who you are in a distant relationship (like an uncle you rarely see) isn't owed much if any explanation. However it's quite different in a long-term intimate relationship. There is a much higher duty of care towards the other person in all ways. You cannot hold a sense of entitlement to remain in an intimate relationship with someone while disregarding their feelings in response to your choices.

Aside from all that, I don't think there is any place in any relationship, ever, for describing another person as "completely pathetic". It is abusive and devaluing and indicates a total lack of care and respect for the other person. On this basis alone it is clear that the relationship is unhealthy.

PastMidnight · 30/08/2022 19:10

CheekyHobson · 30/08/2022 18:28

@EmEllGee

I still think he should be allowed/or it’s acceptable to say no - for whatever reason. And to not have to give a reason. It is his body/his space. Similarly - for a woman to say no to a kiss without giving a reason, even if she’s been perfectly fine with it in the past.

As Cashewlight says, yes, in isolation. But when you are in a relationship, it cannot be all or even primarily about one person's 'rights', because the by the very nature of being in an ongoing relationship, both sides have rights. One person has a right to decline physical contact, and the other person has the right to have their desire for physical contact treated with respect.

If a random person comes up and asks for a kiss, of course you have a right to say no and there is no obligation to explain yourself to a person you don't know at all. Even someone who you are in a distant relationship (like an uncle you rarely see) isn't owed much if any explanation. However it's quite different in a long-term intimate relationship. There is a much higher duty of care towards the other person in all ways. You cannot hold a sense of entitlement to remain in an intimate relationship with someone while disregarding their feelings in response to your choices.

Aside from all that, I don't think there is any place in any relationship, ever, for describing another person as "completely pathetic". It is abusive and devaluing and indicates a total lack of care and respect for the other person. On this basis alone it is clear that the relationship is unhealthy.

Brilliant post.

EmEllGee · 30/08/2022 20:22

@CheekyHobson

Agree that completely pathetic is wrong.

But if situation reversed:

Boyfriend was tipsy/possibly drunk and asks for a kiss. GF says no.

BF keeps asking. GF says no.

BF gets really upset and wants an explanation….

Would Mumsnetters feel that the GF needs to give an explanation/that no is sufficient and to respect the boundary of no? Or - that because it’s an intimate relationship - she needs to give an explanation?

Personally I don’t think she should, and so therefore the same applies to the BF in this case.

PastMidnight · 30/08/2022 20:36

EmEllGee · 30/08/2022 20:22

@CheekyHobson

Agree that completely pathetic is wrong.

But if situation reversed:

Boyfriend was tipsy/possibly drunk and asks for a kiss. GF says no.

BF keeps asking. GF says no.

BF gets really upset and wants an explanation….

Would Mumsnetters feel that the GF needs to give an explanation/that no is sufficient and to respect the boundary of no? Or - that because it’s an intimate relationship - she needs to give an explanation?

Personally I don’t think she should, and so therefore the same applies to the BF in this case.

Look at the context of what happened in the OP's case. CheekyHobson explained that perfectly.

Mumsnetters would rightly be upset if a man tried to force himself onto a woman. That's not what happened here. Asking for an explanation is absolutely fine from either gender. You're supposed to communicate and discuss things in a relationship. If the b/f in this case wasn't being controlling, he could have just provided a simple explanation, like "I'm tired, can we talk about this later", or "you're annoying me, I don't feel like kissing you at the moment, let's talk tomorrow". That's what a normal person would do. The only reason the OP pursued it is because he refused a kiss with no explanation and no suggestion of talking about it. It was just point blank 'no'. In the context of all of his other behaviour, of course this upset her and left her feeling confused and bewildered.

Don't pick on one small part of what the OP said and use that against her. Look at the whole post.

mellicauli · 30/08/2022 21:36

What kind of relationship is it when you sleep together but you don't kiss?
Not the one you want, I suspect.
Leave. Tell him you don't want the same things.

EmEllGee · 30/08/2022 22:16

@PastMidnight

I think more than 50% of the post is about the kissing incident. So not a ‘small part’.

Based on that incident - where initially OP said she was tipsy, through to ‘pissed’ when it blew up - I think continually asking for a kiss, having been told “no, I don’t want to’ IS a bit much.

However - I don’t think it was right to call her pathetic, and I agree the last part of the post does give it more context.

CheekyHobson · 30/08/2022 22:51

Would Mumsnetters feel that the GF needs to give an explanation/that no is sufficient and to respect the boundary of no? Or - that because it’s an intimate relationship - she needs to give an explanation?
**
Personally I don’t think she should, and so therefore the same applies to the BF in this case.

Yes, I do think some level of communication/explanation is needed. That’s a basic element of respect towards any person you are in a relationship of mutual care with. It doesn’t need to be a complicated explanation, but when you are denying someone something they have reasonably come to expect as a part of your relationship, then you do owe them the respect of saying why.

Good relationships are founded on both partners having an ongoing sense of mutual understanding and emotional safety. Denying someone you love reasonable access to your thoughts and feelings is a form of control, and control is not compatible with a healthy and safe relationship.

There may well be valid reasons that someone wants to control their partner’s access to their true thoughts and feelings in a relationship. For example, if your partner is in the habit of arguing with, invalidating, demeaning or dismissing your thoughts and feelings when you express them, or acting punitively towards you for not doing what they want, you might be reluctant to express yourself honestly. Or if you have abuse in your background, you may find it very hard to trust that anyone will accept your thoughts and feelings fairly even if they have given you no genuine reason to believe they will behave badly in response to honesty.

If you are in a relationship where you feel afraid to express your true thoughts and feelings, this is probably a sign to you that your partner is behaving unhealthily (the first example above), or that you have unresolved issues from your past to deal with before you will really be ready to be in a relationship (the second example).

Username3008 · 30/08/2022 23:10

He's gaslighting you and he's controlling you because he can. I mean, making a stand in regards to giving you a kiss?? He's the crazy one here.

This is emotional abuse. He was an absolutely awful person towards you, and somehow you're the one who ended up apologising. I hope you can see that.

Leave him. Sure, it will be hard seeing him around but just don't engage in conversation with him. You're better off having him drag your name through the mud, than drag YOU through the mud.

PastMidnight · 31/08/2022 20:47

CheekyHobson · 30/08/2022 22:51

Would Mumsnetters feel that the GF needs to give an explanation/that no is sufficient and to respect the boundary of no? Or - that because it’s an intimate relationship - she needs to give an explanation?
**
Personally I don’t think she should, and so therefore the same applies to the BF in this case.

Yes, I do think some level of communication/explanation is needed. That’s a basic element of respect towards any person you are in a relationship of mutual care with. It doesn’t need to be a complicated explanation, but when you are denying someone something they have reasonably come to expect as a part of your relationship, then you do owe them the respect of saying why.

Good relationships are founded on both partners having an ongoing sense of mutual understanding and emotional safety. Denying someone you love reasonable access to your thoughts and feelings is a form of control, and control is not compatible with a healthy and safe relationship.

There may well be valid reasons that someone wants to control their partner’s access to their true thoughts and feelings in a relationship. For example, if your partner is in the habit of arguing with, invalidating, demeaning or dismissing your thoughts and feelings when you express them, or acting punitively towards you for not doing what they want, you might be reluctant to express yourself honestly. Or if you have abuse in your background, you may find it very hard to trust that anyone will accept your thoughts and feelings fairly even if they have given you no genuine reason to believe they will behave badly in response to honesty.

If you are in a relationship where you feel afraid to express your true thoughts and feelings, this is probably a sign to you that your partner is behaving unhealthily (the first example above), or that you have unresolved issues from your past to deal with before you will really be ready to be in a relationship (the second example).

@CheekyHobson your posts are great. If you’re not a relationship counsellor, you ought to be. Thank you, I’m sure many people reading your posts apart from the OP are being helped.

PastMidnight · 31/08/2022 21:08

EmEllGee · 30/08/2022 22:16

@PastMidnight

I think more than 50% of the post is about the kissing incident. So not a ‘small part’.

Based on that incident - where initially OP said she was tipsy, through to ‘pissed’ when it blew up - I think continually asking for a kiss, having been told “no, I don’t want to’ IS a bit much.

However - I don’t think it was right to call her pathetic, and I agree the last part of the post does give it more context.

Ok, I'll have one last attempt at explaining this to you. I can't help thinking that you're deliberately missing the point because you think you'll look stupid if you concede that you were wrong. You won't look stupid. You'll look magnanimous.

The kiss is a red herring. This is not about a kiss. The OP knew on some level that things were not right with this man. So she tested the water by asking for a kiss. He didn't want a kiss, thereby confirming what she already thought, i.e. something is wrong. Seriously, nobody ever just wants a kiss for a kiss's sake. It's not as if it provides nutrients for your lips or something. A kiss is a way of expressing reassurance to a partner. If you don't like kissing, that's fine too. In that case, you find other ways of reassuring someone. OP's partner didn't do that either. He did the opposite, confirming OP's thoughts. If something hadn't felt wrong, she wouldn't have asked for the kiss in the first place because she wouldn't have ended the reassurance.

Having realised that her worst thoughts were indeed correct, the OP got out of the taxi and took her own taxi home. That's a very brave step and I'd rather focus on that as being the start of a way forward and something better than banging on about some irrelevant kiss, for goodness' sake.

PastMidnight · 31/08/2022 21:11

PastMidnight · 31/08/2022 21:08

Ok, I'll have one last attempt at explaining this to you. I can't help thinking that you're deliberately missing the point because you think you'll look stupid if you concede that you were wrong. You won't look stupid. You'll look magnanimous.

The kiss is a red herring. This is not about a kiss. The OP knew on some level that things were not right with this man. So she tested the water by asking for a kiss. He didn't want a kiss, thereby confirming what she already thought, i.e. something is wrong. Seriously, nobody ever just wants a kiss for a kiss's sake. It's not as if it provides nutrients for your lips or something. A kiss is a way of expressing reassurance to a partner. If you don't like kissing, that's fine too. In that case, you find other ways of reassuring someone. OP's partner didn't do that either. He did the opposite, confirming OP's thoughts. If something hadn't felt wrong, she wouldn't have asked for the kiss in the first place because she wouldn't have ended the reassurance.

Having realised that her worst thoughts were indeed correct, the OP got out of the taxi and took her own taxi home. That's a very brave step and I'd rather focus on that as being the start of a way forward and something better than banging on about some irrelevant kiss, for goodness' sake.

Show quote history

•should have read because she wouldn't have needed the reassurance, not ended