Page 9 | is University education really overrated?

5128gap · 20/08/2022 08:46

AchatAVendre · 20/08/2022 01:33

a relative came over just to brag how good her son did and the uni he's got and he's going to become some high flying medical engineer or something

i simply said "my OH is a master carpenter skills he picked up from his family members and helping mates out and we still live comfortably and he did a NVQ at trade colleague"

my OH is in so much in demand as a carpenter/joiner that some people have to wait 3-4 months before they are seen to. lot of the house he's done himself.
surely people who go to University and college are just getting a crappy deal and fools?

Maybe if you'd gone to university, you wouldn't need to boast about how much money your husband earns and would be able to talk about how much you earn instead? Or at least about what you had done in your life, even if not university, but the other skills you mention?

One of the big benefits of university for women is that it opened up well paying jobs in the vocational professions to them. Its extremely difficult for women to compete in the male dominated fields that you mention - not necessarily because they don't want to/aren't technically minded but because some countries like the UK are backwards and many men already in those roles want to keep their workplaces sexist and non-inclusive.

Some degrees are a waste of money but then again, university does get young people to leave home at 18 and live with their peers and often develop greater social skills due to doing so, never mind the educational benefits simply from having to learn the self discipline to pass exams, etc..

I've also done up and sold many houses with my DH and neither of us are carpenters or tradespeople and we both have jobs that require degrees. DH has just roughcasted an exterior wall and I've just tiled a bathroom. I've actually tiled lots of bathrooms but only in my own homes. Considered using wet wall but decided to stick with what I know I can do. DH puts in kitchen units, I paint interior walls and skirtings, DH hangs doors and does plumbing - tbh so many tradesmen use people that are bad at soldering joints, its best to do them yourself and test for leaks before doing the flooring on top. Most trades really aren't rocket science, albeit doing them fast and well enough to make a living out of them is hard. If trades in this country were regulated in the way that they are in most other European countries then it might be a different matter.

Plastering is the trade I particularly rate - personally consider its a work of art at its best. Its very skilled. And bricklaying.

You and your DH may be very skilled and practical and I agree that people can do excellent DIY. But to be fair, the jobs you've listed are not really at the highly skilled end. Tiling your own bathroom, painting walls and even installing kitchen units is to skilled trade what performing CPR and putting a bandage on is to being a doctor.
How about making bespoke units in the first place, converting a loft, rewiring a house?

You can value academic education and be proud of your degree and professional job without minimising the work of those who have other skills.

babbez · 20/08/2022 09:06

lot123 · 20/08/2022 07:35

The point is, is isn't that common for most 21 yr olds to be starting on £30,000

I distinctly remember my second year (post graduation) salary at 22 being £33,000 (including overtime) at a professional services firm back in 1997.

So I hope most graduate salaries are £30k given that was 25 years ago?

Unless you're in law, engineering or tech, they probably aren't. Most graduates don't need to be on £30k salary even now, even in London

MissHavershamJoinsTinder · 20/08/2022 09:14

The university experience has been diluted and that began with Blair and his wish for 50% to go to university. Never, in the history of man, has 50% of any population been bright enough to go to university.
This has led to three things

a growth in third rate universities and third rate courses to cater for this. When was the last time you saw a politician's child go to Burnley Uni to study Forensic Science? The elite don't send their children to these institutions.

a growth in student debt. It used to be the case-back in the very long day-that only 10% of students would go to uni. It didn't matter if their parents were dukes or binmen-their fees were paid. This was affordable, as only 10% made the grade. It is impossible to pay for 50% and it means bright working class children-in particular-are at a disadvantage.

These things contribute to a feeling that a university education means nothing, as almost anybody can get into some type of university studying something. These are often people who are not very literate. Many times, I have seen a poster on here declare they are going to uni and yet their posts are barely understandable.

Therefore, lots of people laugh at the idea that someone thinks a third rate university education is 'better' in some way than an apprenticeship. Of course, in these type of cases, they are right to do so. A generation has been conned.

bruffin · 20/08/2022 09:34

Kite22 · 19/08/2022 22:44

Oh... I was going on this (from CV library)

The average occupational therapist salary is £30,486 within the UK. A newly qualified occupational therapist working in the NHS can expect to earn at least £22,000 Band 5 of the NHS (AfC) Pay Rates.

and assumed someone straight out of university would start on £22 000 ?

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Definitely out of date

DD was on just under 25K band 5 straight out of uni in Wales on rotation and a tad under £30K with 3 months experience band 5 Outer London when she moved. If she wanted to move again (which she doesnt) she could earn even more in Central London

bruffin · 20/08/2022 09:46

OT salaries think this more accurate

balalake · 20/08/2022 09:52

@MissHavershamJoinsTinder you have views similar to mine and explained better than I could have done.

bruffin · 20/08/2022 10:01

I also agree with@MissHavershamJoinsTinder
Although i disagree slightly in that fees were free it was still a cost of accommodation and living costs which made it unaffordable for many. I left school in 79 at 16 and very few of my friends took A levels or even went to university and we were top set of comprehensive

Crikeyalmighty · 20/08/2022 10:19

@MissHavershamJoinsTinder I totally agree- I'm a big supporter of Blair and I think the concept came with good intentions but with unexpected consequences- I think the money should have been put into high quality vocational FE with allowances paid including housing benefit and small maintanance grants.

I was an internal recruiter for many years in IT consultancies and we wouldn't touch anyone without a top 20 Uni and at least a 2.1 - the BTEC students who came in as juniors were actually far better skilled and less 'what can you do for me'

brookstar · 20/08/2022 10:20

There are also wider benefits to having an educated society.
Societies with high participation in further and higher education are healthier, produce higher tax returns and have less crime.

Higher education is a private good ( benefits the individual) and is a public good (benefits society as a whole)

brookstar · 20/08/2022 10:23

I was an internal recruiter for many years in IT consultancies and we wouldn't touch anyone without a top 20 Uni and at least a 2.1

Was that top 20 overall? Or top 20 for IT?
Which league tables did you use?
Which metric were important when deciding which universities were worth recruiting from?

Cherchezlaspice · 20/08/2022 10:49

brookstar · 20/08/2022 10:20

There are also wider benefits to having an educated society.
Societies with high participation in further and higher education are healthier, produce higher tax returns and have less crime.

Higher education is a private good ( benefits the individual) and is a public good (benefits society as a whole)

Exactly this. People who reduce the benefit of university education to future earnings are missing rather a lot of the point, I think.

AchatAVendre · 20/08/2022 11:32

5128gap · 20/08/2022 08:46

You and your DH may be very skilled and practical and I agree that people can do excellent DIY. But to be fair, the jobs you've listed are not really at the highly skilled end. Tiling your own bathroom, painting walls and even installing kitchen units is to skilled trade what performing CPR and putting a bandage on is to being a doctor.
How about making bespoke units in the first place, converting a loft, rewiring a house?

You can value academic education and be proud of your degree and professional job without minimising the work of those who have other skills.

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DH is an electronics engineer. Of course he can do wiring. Some parts he does need signed off but to suggest that someone who has an honours degree in electronics cannot follow the national standards relating to wiring and circuitry is again this ridiculous concept that people with degrees cannot do manual work. Out of personal interest, DH was doing so much circuitry work in our rental properties that he passed the qualifications in his spare time. He said that they were extremely easy compared to doing a degree in a related subject.

Its a bit like me being a lawyer and being told by a letting agent with no qualifications and who doesn't understand eg ostensible versus actual or authority that I can't draw up my own leases or manage my own tenancies.

Its not so much an issue of "minimising the work of those who have other skills", its this constant reverse snobbery that anyone with a professional degree qualified job is a completely helpless idiot with no practical skills or the inability to learn them.

If you want to have a bespoke unit personally crafted then no-one is stopping you, but the vast majority of such work involves fitting standard kitchen units and is therefore not highly skilled at all. Most dedicated tradespeople will happily admit that they don't have the skills to make bespoke units (or the clients willing to pay for it). Its a bit like comparing someone paid to design an entirely new algorithim to someone who simply uses the finished programme.

As for loft conversions, what particular difficulties do you envisage? Its a lot of work which is why most people pay builders to do them but since we generally draw up our own plans and have them signed off by an architectural technician to get them through planning, its simply following the building standards, working where the staircase is best placed, envisaging any potential problems and doing the work. Again, its not rocket science. Several different trades involved and a lot of work if you wanted to do it on your own, but if you had the time and the willingness to develop the skills (and the dry weather) then there would be nothing to stop you from doing it yourself.

Everyone respects skilled trades and the people that work really hard. But many of us can also see through the cowboys or find their mistakes. Thats why I'm in favour of properly regulating the skilled trades here as in Germany and other countries, so that the cowboys can be kicked out or are at least easier to identify for those who struggle to spot them.

5128gap · 20/08/2022 12:13

AchatAVendre · 20/08/2022 11:32

DH is an electronics engineer. Of course he can do wiring. Some parts he does need signed off but to suggest that someone who has an honours degree in electronics cannot follow the national standards relating to wiring and circuitry is again this ridiculous concept that people with degrees cannot do manual work. Out of personal interest, DH was doing so much circuitry work in our rental properties that he passed the qualifications in his spare time. He said that they were extremely easy compared to doing a degree in a related subject.

Its a bit like me being a lawyer and being told by a letting agent with no qualifications and who doesn't understand eg ostensible versus actual or authority that I can't draw up my own leases or manage my own tenancies.

Its not so much an issue of "minimising the work of those who have other skills", its this constant reverse snobbery that anyone with a professional degree qualified job is a completely helpless idiot with no practical skills or the inability to learn them.

If you want to have a bespoke unit personally crafted then no-one is stopping you, but the vast majority of such work involves fitting standard kitchen units and is therefore not highly skilled at all. Most dedicated tradespeople will happily admit that they don't have the skills to make bespoke units (or the clients willing to pay for it). Its a bit like comparing someone paid to design an entirely new algorithim to someone who simply uses the finished programme.

As for loft conversions, what particular difficulties do you envisage? Its a lot of work which is why most people pay builders to do them but since we generally draw up our own plans and have them signed off by an architectural technician to get them through planning, its simply following the building standards, working where the staircase is best placed, envisaging any potential problems and doing the work. Again, its not rocket science. Several different trades involved and a lot of work if you wanted to do it on your own, but if you had the time and the willingness to develop the skills (and the dry weather) then there would be nothing to stop you from doing it yourself.

Everyone respects skilled trades and the people that work really hard. But many of us can also see through the cowboys or find their mistakes. Thats why I'm in favour of properly regulating the skilled trades here as in Germany and other countries, so that the cowboys can be kicked out or are at least easier to identify for those who struggle to spot them.

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I didn't suggest that someone with an electronics degree couldn't do rewiring. Rewiring was merely an example to balance your conflation of trade with the basic DIY jobs you gave as examples. Most people in my circles can paint and tile, but couldn't rewire a house. It's a skilled job.
Good for you that you DH can do it. Most people can't.
I'm no expert on loft conversion, but off the top of my head, my own involved:
Raising the roof
Putting in RSJs
Moving the boiler
Building and fitting a dormer window
Putting in the plumbing for a bathroom
Plumbing in the bathroom
Rewiring parts of the house
Building and fitting a bespoke staircase
Partitioning a downstairs room
Reinforcing ceilings
Laying floorboards
Putting in insulation
Making and fitting interior woodwork, skirtings, cupboards...
And only then, all the cosmetic work that you believe constitutes trade, such as plastering, painting and tiling.
You and your DH might well know how to do all the above, but most untrained people don't.
Its not reverse snobbery to acknowledge that.

brookstar · 20/08/2022 12:20

Exactly this. People who reduce the benefit of university education to future earnings are missing rather a lot of the point, I think.

Absolutely.
It's not an either/or situation either. Just because you acknowledge that there are benefits to going to university doesn't mean you don't value vocational education, training or trades.

Vocational education is fantastic - if you know what you want to do. It's very specific and is training you to do a particular job. If you don't k ow what job or sector you want to work in then it's not a good option.

People going to university fall into two groups. Those who know what career they want and know they need to do a particular degree subject. Then there are those who don't know what they want to do so go to university to study a subject they enjoy and to spend sometime exploring what they might want to do as a career.

Both are completely valid and as around 80% of graduate jobs don't ask for a particular degree subject there are lots of options available for graduates who went to university without a clear career plan.

lot123 · 20/08/2022 12:31

I'm pretty lucky. My husband with his economics degree and office-based job has:

installed two en-suites from scratch in the corner of our bedrooms including all the wiring and plumbing (pre needing certification) and partitions/walls/plastering
made some really nice oak furniture for our lounge
is a bit of a Geppeto at taking electrical things apart and fixing them

For obvious reasons he doesn't do gas work but our plumber and electrician (for a major renovation) were quite complementary. He can plaster but not at the level of a professional. His brother's a structural engineer so I've seen my in laws install RSJs with his help.

Not dissing tradespeople btw, I think they're fantastic, particularly to save you doing a full time job and then building work in your spare time. But not everyone is totally useless at DIY either.

QuebecBagnet · 20/08/2022 12:41

Just imagine how much of a better paid job you could have had OP if you’d gone to uni. Rather than an office junior job. 🤷🏻‍♀️

5128gap · 20/08/2022 12:47

QuebecBagnet · 20/08/2022 12:41

Just imagine how much of a better paid job you could have had OP if you’d gone to uni. Rather than an office junior job. 🤷🏻‍♀️

If only that were true.
Currently recruiting for an entry level admin assistant at just over NMW, in an organisation that doesn't require degrees at any level. Of the 8 shortlisted applicants competing for the role, 7 have degrees.

AchatAVendre · 20/08/2022 12:54

5128gap · 20/08/2022 12:47

If only that were true.
Currently recruiting for an entry level admin assistant at just over NMW, in an organisation that doesn't require degrees at any level. Of the 8 shortlisted applicants competing for the role, 7 have degrees.

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But OP might have done something else entirely if she had done a university degree.

DH's employer is currently advertising for graduate entry engineers at 45k. In my profession, most women of my seniority level work 4 days a week and are on no less than 65k pa and usually 75k or 85k. Those at partner level will be on more obviously, in good years but also have more risk/responsibility. Plus, a lot of the jobs that were extremely well paid in the past now require degrees, eg the mysterious "finance" field.

5128gap · 20/08/2022 13:08

AchatAVendre · 20/08/2022 12:54

But OP might have done something else entirely if she had done a university degree.

DH's employer is currently advertising for graduate entry engineers at 45k. In my profession, most women of my seniority level work 4 days a week and are on no less than 65k pa and usually 75k or 85k. Those at partner level will be on more obviously, in good years but also have more risk/responsibility. Plus, a lot of the jobs that were extremely well paid in the past now require degrees, eg the mysterious "finance" field.

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I completely agree that a good degree from a good university is a huge asset, and obviously essential to some careers. That goes without saying.
However, that's entirely different from the thinking that having a degree ( and degree, any uni) is an important or crucial requirement for success, which seems to be a widely held belief.
The OP is no worse off without a degree than someone with a generic degree from a less respected uni. In fact if she can demonstrate previous work experience or transferable life skills, she would probably be the more desirable candidate for the sort of jobs many of these graduates are competing for.

brookstar · 20/08/2022 13:17

I completely agree that a good degree from a good university is a huge asset, and obviously essential to some careers. That goes without saying.

Define 'good university'.....

Kite22 · 20/08/2022 13:52

2022 earnings for newly qualified

Teacher - going up to £28,00 this year after a catch up leap from £25 700
Nurse - £27 055 with one year's experience (couldn't find figure for 0 years experience - although I presume is bottom of Band 5 so same as below)
Paramedic - £25 655
Social Worker - seems to vary, hugely, across the country
SaLT - £25 655
Physio - £25655
Graduate Police Officer - Salary from £24 780
Police staff - from £22,000 (plus shift allowance)

before you get all the hundreds of random jobs that are lesser known.

Overwhelmingly, "most" graduates do not start on £30K salaries.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the OP being incredibly rude to her guest who just wanted to share her happy news on the day.

shiningcuckoo · 20/08/2022 14:01

Why would you burst her bubble? She's allowed to be proud of her child on the day of his results. It doesn't take away from the achievements of your family to say 'that's great. You must be really proud '. My own children aren't interested in Uni and that's all good. My son wants to be a mechanic of some sort and my daughter wants to work in health and beauty. Neither see the benefit of Uni. This is in spite of my telling them about the fab time I had and the great friends I made. I went to a good Uni
and loved it. My parents were immensely proud. However I now earn much less than many people who didn't go and much less than my Uni friends as a teacher in special Ed. I need a degree and postgrad qualifications to do my job and my degree opened a door that's not at all about what I earn but about change I want to make for others. For me Uni was and isn't now about money earned - it's about the happiness I found, friendships, the learning and access to extremely fulfilling work that has expanded my world.

sundayvibeswig22 · 20/08/2022 14:25

Op you sound like you're very bitter. Your argument that not having a degree affords a better life doesn't equate with what you've written about your 'career' and your dh's depression. Perhaps his workload/ carrying the financial load is impacting on his mental health negatively?

All my friends are graduates and interestingly all our dh's aren't. The women out-earn their dh's by quite a bit. All our roles required degrees- solicitor, head teacher, psychologist, actuary, social worker, A&E doctor.

However, I don't think a degree is necessary in life and if my dc were not interested in going and wanted to learn a trade I'd be very happy. I wouldn't piss on someone's parade for being pleased their dc achieved well in exams though. I've never really had to try that hard, and partied more than I studied during my a levels and still got A's so it is possible.

I actually loved uni so much I went 3 times. It wasn't just about the learning, I also met friends for life and got to travel and study abroad. The doctorate was fully funded and my employers paid for my masters. I'm lucky that I paid off my initial degree loan very quickly, so I've not had a lot of debt. Because of my degrees I have a great lifestyle- earning very well, working part time and term time only because my role is in such demand I can pick and chose when I want to work. My dh on the other hand has zero flexibility in his role which I've noticed is more common in non professional type roles.

Horses for courses I suppose!

shiningcuckoo · 20/08/2022 14:34

And the other thing a University education gave me were opportunities ... to study abroad twice, to work for a charity in a developing country and to gain residence status in another country resulting in dual citizenship for me and my children. Without a degree none of those things would have been possible.

AchatAVendre · 20/08/2022 14:35

Kite22 · 20/08/2022 13:52

2022 earnings for newly qualified

Teacher - going up to £28,00 this year after a catch up leap from £25 700
Nurse - £27 055 with one year's experience (couldn't find figure for 0 years experience - although I presume is bottom of Band 5 so same as below)
Paramedic - £25 655
Social Worker - seems to vary, hugely, across the country
SaLT - £25 655
Physio - £25655
Graduate Police Officer - Salary from £24 780
Police staff - from £22,000 (plus shift allowance)

before you get all the hundreds of random jobs that are lesser known.

Overwhelmingly, "most" graduates do not start on £30K salaries.

Of course, none of this has anything to do with the OP being incredibly rude to her guest who just wanted to share her happy news on the day.

All of the jobs you have listed (except physio but I assume you meant NHS) are public sector jobs...