is University education really overrated?

[lovethehighlands]

a relative came over just to brag how good her son did and the uni he's got and he's going to become some high flying medical engineer or something.

i simply said "my OH is a master carpenter skills he picked up from his family members and helping mates out and we still live comfortably and he did a NVQ at trade colleague"

my OH is in so much in demand as a carpenter/joiner that some people have to wait 3-4 months before they are seen to. lot of the house he's done himself.

surely people who go to University and college are just getting a crappy deal and fools? FIFTY GRAND debt!

why can't kids just become carpenters, plumbers, locksmiths, electricians etc where the money is!

i know people who went university in medical, teaching and they live the same as us. we have a house, we go on holidays, drive a nice car and have a great social life. (although OH is in depression which i've posted but pre covid he did martial arts)

so whats so special about University?

Its become a class thing. Those who have no experience of university may think it’s great if their child gets a place on a university course, even if it’s a low ranked university and their child scrapes a third. Because university has been sold as a dream to them.

The reality is that more of the middle class now realise that, due to grade inflation and the large number of graduates, unless the child wishes to pursue a career for which a degree is essential and the child has the intellectual ability to obtain a place in one of the better universities, other avenues may be preferable - degree apprenticeship or other career route.

You should get your chippy boyfriend to sort out that chip on your shoulder!

This builder would certainly say University education is vastly overrated.

I agree with this.

There is very much a culture of looking down on people due to their education level and/or percieved intelligence both in wider society, and particularly on MN. Its not unreasonable that someone who experiences this may want to give another perspective.

"You didn't put her straight, you pissed on her sons hard work to brag about your husband and came across as a knob."

This. And I also agree with the comment about "she started it" being childish too.

Me and my DH but went to uni, and both have jobs we couldn't do without our degrees. We're now public sector / third sector workers, so whilst we both have decent graduate wages, neither of us will ever be massive earners. But I knew that when I chose my career. My daughter has just been accepted to do a degree, which is necessary for her career, it's in healthcare. Again, as a public sector worker, she won't earn a fortune but she will have an enjoyable career, one that is very rewarding and necessary in society.

If you think going to uni is just about who earns the most, then I do think you're missing the point of uni education. For me, my dh and children it has opened up opportunities that you and your dh are not able to access, because you haven't been. My DHs career in particular has little connection to his actual degree, but it is a graduate only role, so although his degree is largely irrelevant, it has given him access to graduate roles that you and your DH simply cannot access. We don't have to use them, we could decide not to be teachers / hospital workers and become a postie or train driver instead. But having the degree makes options available to you, that you simply don't have without one.

Did you really start talking about your husband and his job when she came to talk about her son getting a place at university ?

You're better off without 'friends' like these. It's ridiculous. Why not just wish her & her son well.

A trade is a skill and a worthwhile pursuit for those suited to it. For others a degree will be more suitable for them. However some degrees are probably way more useful then others.

I come from a family of carpenters and was first to go to university and get my degree. I have a good job that requires a degree and my family members live a similar lifestyle to me and they are fully qualified carpenters. I don’t see myself as above or below others. People should make best choice for themselves. In my extended family those that are struggling most financially are ones who didn’t get any qualification be it an apprenticeship or a academic.

What a nasty thing to say to your relative.

I totally agree that not everyone needs to go to uni and it’s perfectly possible to have a well paying job/trade and lifestyle without a degree but in the circumstances the only reply to someone who is pleased/excited/relieved that their child has done well enough to do what they want to do is to say how great that is and be happy for them. Your husband’s situation is irrelevant here and if someone had started talking about how unnecessary degrees are in that situation I’d have thought they were a total idiot.

its in your head that she’s looking down on people who don’t have degrees, she didn’t say that. Sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder. Not everyone wants to be a plumber, etc. And yes, degrees are needed for some important jobs, doctors, nurses, engineers, medical engineers. Chances are for what he wants to do he will need a degree. It’s not like he’s doing media studies but even if he was it’s his life and he wants to do that then that’s up to him.

Equally, learning a trade opens up opportunities that are simply not there for people who didn't take that route.
I have a degree and also work in low paid work that I enjoy. DP is trade and works in extremely highly paid work that he equally enjoys. In addition, he has the reassurance of knowing he will always be able to find work because he is practical and can turn his hand to most things. His high income has also provided a cushion of savings.
I on the other hand know I am only ever one fixed term funding pot away from redundancy. That's my choice, and I'm happy with that, but do I think my degree has given me some enviable special access to the best of opportunities? Not in the least.
In terms of standard of living and job security I'd be infinitely better off in a trade.
Only I wouldnt have been capable of it. As contrary to popular opinion, you need skill and aptitude. It's not just something you just fall back on because you can't get into uni.

If someone who cannot correctly punctuate even one sentence can land an office job at a solicitor's, then clearly even GCSEs are pointless, let alone university degrees.

I suspect the OPs real job is cleaning the office.

Thing is, there very much is a trend of looking down on people who don’t go to uni.

When kids reach a-level age there is automatic assumption that they will be going to look at uni’s. People ask “what did you study?”

But let’s face it, for the most part uni is a social experience. Unless you are doing a job which requires an actual degree such as medicine, a lot of degrees such as e.g. sociology are meaningless, and a lot of companies ask for degree level education without specifics as to what degree they want.

my DP works in an office where only 2 of them don’t have degrees. The rest all do, and they’re all doing basic admin jobs with no intentions of looking for anything different.

Most graduates don’t get graduate level jobs, they still work their way up but it takes considerable time to get a graduate level job.

OP absolutely didn’t need to put her friend down like that, but neither should people look down on people who choose not to go to uni and who still end up in the same jobs as the many graduates who partied their way through uni and came out with a useless degree and 30 grand’s worth of debt.

Its precisely this type of unpleasantness that leads people to feel the need to defend non academic choices.
You're also deluded if you equate grammatical error with lack of education, as you would swiftly discover if ever required to check the written work of many graduates.
A recent letter from a hospital consultant included 'ward's' as a plural and mentioned that some results were 'different to' others. His excellence in his role is not diminished by this in the least.

You sound really bitter and judgemental, quite sneering at people who go to university.

For a start, it can take a lot of work and sacrifice to get in (having watched DCs toil to get the right grades). Many jobs HAVE to have a degrees. So if you want one of those jobs, you have no option but to go to university. Many people find the uni experience helps them to become independent faster. They make friendships that last a lifetime. They experience another part of the country, expand their minds, become more tolerant because they are mixing with people they wouldn't otherwise mix with.

There isn't a 'right' and 'wrong' way. For some people the job they want doesn't require a degree and they just don't fancy it. It's perfectly possible to get a great job and successful career without going to uni.

I didn't go to university by the way, and I've had a great career through taking courses while at work. I've also seen DCs flourish at uni (and get jobs they love wouldn't have got without a degree).

It isn't a competition. Your friend is understandably proud that her son has got in to the uni of his choice. Brilliant for him.

OP has been deeply unpleasant about people’s education on this thread. Expecting people not to respond in kind about her lack of education is not particularly realistic. Nobody is on MN to achieve sainthood.

@5128gap

"Equally, learning a trade opens up opportunities that are simply not there for people who didn't take that route."

The difference is learning a trade opens you up to that trade. Train to be a carpenter, you are qualified to do carpentry type work, but that's all that is opened up to you. You're not then qualified to do other trades.... plumbing, gas fitter etc without retraining. Whereas it's estimated that 40-60% of graduate jobs are open to people from a range of degree backgrounds. So having a degree in primary teaching doesn't just open up a career in primary teaching, it also opens up other graduate careers that require a degree, but not in a particular subject. As I said in my last post, my husband's degree bears no relevance to his career. But it opened up doors to him, that simply would have remained closed with a trade.

OP you sound like you've got a massive chip on your shoulder.
She was proud of her child and you just sound bitter.
As others have said, some jobs needs degrees and others need practical experience and qualifications while doing the job. Neither is right or wrong, better or worse - we just hopefully choose the route that suits us best.

No she hasn't. I can't see one post where she has made a direct attack on any individual poster. She has strong negative views about the concept of university and clearly believes its not a worthwhile choice, which could be moderately offensive to people who made that choice. But that's not the same as making a personal attack by telling her she is insufficiently educated for an office job and is probably just the cleaner. Nasty attitude towards cleaners too.
The OPs arguments are sufficiently controversial for those in opposition to challenge without resorting to cheap and spiteful point scoring.
Its hardly aspiring to sainthood to think people can disagree without resorting to criticising a poster's grammar.

As contrary to popular opinion, you need skill and aptitude. It's not just something you just fall back on because you can't get into uni.

Totally agree.

Being generous, I think the OP has internalised this idea that the default is aspiration to university and trades are for those who aren't clever enough to g9 to university therefore making them second class citizens. Rather than it being a valid decision in its own right.

She is actually as guilty of holding this opinion as others who hold this opinion which is why she became so defensive of her OH's trade when faced with someone else going to university.

I have friends who are graduates and friends who have trades. I can't imagine valuing one over the other for their educational choices. Or feeling that there was any kind of competition between the two.

@QuebecBagnet Actually media studies these days if on a particularly good course is a really relevant degree- so much relates to media be it social media, TV, marketing, advertising, film production, journalism and there are a lot of interesting jobs that value a good media understanding . Think about how much of our life revolves around media- even Mumsnet is media!!!

Yes, she has. It’s the premise of the entire thread. Whether she’s attacked individual posters is immaterial. She’s been calling people stupid for going to uni and deriding it as a life choice. A lot of people will find that considerably more than ‘moderately offensive’.

If you attack education while communicating in a manner that highlights your lack of education, then that will get picked on. If you consider that ‘cheap and spiteful’, but OP’s arguments merely ‘controversial’, then we’ll have to disagree.

if they had spent 4-5 in trade or marketing they would be earning big bucks at aged 22.

Maybe they would, but they be pretty shit at being a surgeon/engineer/teacher/etc.

Some jobs require degrees, some don't. Some people want to study for degrees, others don't People are all different, I can't believe this is news to you.

If OP's friend went to Tenerife, OP would have bragged about going to Elevenarife 😂
Your friend wanted to share some good news and you wanted to take the wind out of her sails and "put her straight" by making sure she knew just how wonderful and brilliant your DH is, and how useless degrees are.
When you work for this law firm, ask the Solicitors which universities they went to and then spout off to them about how useless you think their degrees are and how they should have just done a trade.

You may well be right. The working life spans several decades, and who knows what opportunities may or may not be around over the years, or how rewarding or secure various jobs turn out to be.
I'm in my 50s now so talking from the perspective of looking backwards, and all I can say is it hasn't been my generic degree from a mediocre uni that has enabled us to enjoy the opportunities and security we've known over the years. Nor has it made a jot of difference to my employability.
Obviously that's entirely personal and other people will have a different experience.

Sorry, I maybe didn’t word it well. The comment about media studies followed on from my point about how some jobs you need to have a degree in order to do the job. I know there’s a lot of talk inc on MN that if you’re going to saddle yourself with debt at least do a degree where you’re qualified to do something at the end like the lad in the OP. Like I said I do agree that if someone wants to do even a non vocational degree it’s still their choice.

I’m very much a believer of education for educations sake. My first degree was something similar to media studies, ie an “easy” degree (in many’s opinions) which qualified me for nothing. But it’s all the other skills you learn, research, constructing an argument, analysing research, getting a love of learning.

while my first degree did nothing for me really career wise and I went from uni to cleaning sewers for a living (no joke), the degree stuck with me and I went on to do postgrad stuff and am now a senior university lecturer. 😁