is University education really overrated?

[lovethehighlands]

a relative came over just to brag how good her son did and the uni he's got and he's going to become some high flying medical engineer or something.

i simply said "my OH is a master carpenter skills he picked up from his family members and helping mates out and we still live comfortably and he did a NVQ at trade colleague"

my OH is in so much in demand as a carpenter/joiner that some people have to wait 3-4 months before they are seen to. lot of the house he's done himself.

surely people who go to University and college are just getting a crappy deal and fools? FIFTY GRAND debt!

why can't kids just become carpenters, plumbers, locksmiths, electricians etc where the money is!

i know people who went university in medical, teaching and they live the same as us. we have a house, we go on holidays, drive a nice car and have a great social life. (although OH is in depression which i've posted but pre covid he did martial arts)

so whats so special about University?

My son did badly in his GCSE’s but went to college to do a BTEC and with the help of very supportive tutors got a triple distinction. One of the tutors suspected he may have undiagnosed ADHD. DS did not want to go to uni and was very lucky to get a trade apprenticeship with a national company and his predicted future earnings will exceed many jobs that require a degree . He has recently been diagnosed with ADHD and traits of autism and though he is very happy with his choice of career he wonders if he could have done better at school with the appropriate support. We have suggested that if he still feels that way when he qualifies he could study part time for a degree and not have the same level of debt . I think he just wants to prove he can do it for himself . DP and I have 7 children between us . 5 have degrees and 2 in trades but all doing well.

Sounds like you have a massive chip on your shoulder OP.what will you say if your sons want to go to university

@lovethehighlands

you seem to keep referring to money. 50k IS a lot but many students aren’t in debt… if you have doctor or lawyer parents for example, that 50k can simply be paid for sometimes. That is the nature of privilege and why often these roles run in families.

Secondly, if you want to be a dentist rather than a plumber, you know, because you have an interest in it… then you have to go to uni? So that’s why you’d go.

Thirdly, when you want to work in a particular area, or do a certain job, you don’t mind paying back the 200 or so a month. It might sacrifice you a new car or another dinner out but it’s a small percentage of earning.

Finally I know many who did history or English degrees and they ended up in low paid roles. Financially it doesn’t make sense but it’s pretty nice having that extra layer of learning if that’s what you’re into. It’s great your OH has a fab livelihood and no debt (though he’s depressed does he enjoy it?). But it’s not for everyone. Not everyone wants a lot of money at 22 compared with a job they really love at 32.

It’s quite sad you have such a closed mind about this. I have had a lot of education including private school so you’d probably think my family were nuts. Difference is I wouldn’t judge you or your OH… maybe you’d benefit yourself from a course to broaden your thinking?!

And .... "she started it" - straight from the playground.

@lovethehighlands

i haven’t read the whole thread but if your friend was being rude about you and your husband then it sounds like she’s clinging on to her son’s education as some sort of social standing… i presume she didn’t go to uni herself so sees it as something important. Honestly OP, people have all sorts of chips on their shoulder, we all do. She sounds insecure and if you’re happy with your lot I’d just humour her.

I was one of those pissed teens on their first holiday in Magaluf when I was 18. That was the summer before I went to university, and now I teach at that university. I am in a STEM department. I want women to have choices as to whether to become a hairdresser or a nuclear physicist, for example. I could do your job with one hand tied behind my back, but you couldn't do mine.

This thread has entertained me before I drive off to work and start planning for fresher's week. Shall I tell my new students not to bother, they'd be better off being a plumber? Or give them the choice?

You mention salary a bit. Curious, what can an in demand carpenter earn?

If a student does really well, and then works really hard way their chosen profession they could be earning some 80k-100k by 30 (a few earn loads more). If they do averagely is more like 50k. Some don't get any real benefit from it as they do jobs that don't need degrees.

I have a feeling that an in demand carpenter could be earning loads as it's a valuable skill. But as a woman was never something that I felt was an option and so have no idea of the amount you could earn.

If large debt is the main problem, salary is useful to understand if the debt is too much

You were an arse OP. It was results day, she was relieved, excited, proud and you were a horrible friend and an arse. Do you have any idea how stressful it is waiting for your child’s results?

I actually agree that degrees aren’t a sensible choice for everyone. But the fact that you don’t even work yourself and are bragging about you DH is astonishing. Do you not see that?

What fresh grad is in 100k? This is more than hedge funds pay, who pays more than hedge funds?

There's too much focus on pushing people into going to uni when it might not be the right thing for them.

@TheWillow oxford graduate in city law firm; software engineer in FANGs,

There aren’t many law graduates on 100k. If they are then for a start they have done extra postgraduate study anyway since we all go to law school, plus the university they went to is irrelevant since firms pay a standard amount for their trainees and finally I expect they’re training in a US firm and those places are few and far between and they will have sold their souls to the firm..

Most trainee solicitors are on significantly less. Even in city firms.

As a newly qualified solicitor they might be but that is 3-4 years after leaving university

I work in the same industry as the FANGs, this is not what they pay in the UK. I think they might pay this in $ in the US or with a machine learning PhD.

Can't comment on law but it makes me doubt it because I know the FANG example to be false for fresh grads

I hope you’re planning to tell the firm of solicitors you’re about to start working for that they wasted their time at university. Make sure you set them straight, OP, preferably on your first day, otherwise they won’t know.

For those unfamiliar with the industry jargon, FANG are the higher paying tech companies. Facebook, Amazon, Netflix and Google

I think there are multiple aspects to University and it all adds up. Some degrees don't lead to great careers and some students don't end up using the degree. It does also provide for a great social life and lots of new friendships though if you're not of the social nature it could be lonely. For some its their first real independence.

I didn't go to uni but both girls did. I would have hated it, the girls enjoyed it. Don't see Uni as simply a way to a career, its an education and experience. One of the girls friends (F Mathematician) is now a gardener another (M Engineer) is a plumber.

I work in a company (professional services, chartered accountants mainly) where we have a school leaver programme but the vast majority of opportunities are for degree level 2:2 or above.

Our grads come to us having had 3 fun life experience building years, but a lot of debt. they then "stress more about exams" for 3 more years to become chartered.

They are earning good money in 3 years (I've always out earned my friends) and later in life have the opportunity to advance to 6 figure salaries. All whilst working flexibly, getting a good pension, health care, sick and holiday pay (not something you get working for yourself). Plus perks like meals out and foreign trios.

Sure I agree trades are great and I wouldn't rule it out for my dc if that's what they wanted to do. But I'd rather they got a city job, maybe worked around the world, had financial security. Each to their own.

Op ur ridiculously rude. I'd have put it down to echoing your neighbour had you not put a question on here and then had the exact same attitude to those that answered it.
Some jobs are fantastic for learning as an apprenticeship or joining a trade and are equally as essential to the world as others which are simply better learnt in a learning environment for further times. Some people will start as a plumber and decide its not for them. Some will go to uni and do the same. I have more respect for someone that may be doing a power paid job purely to get some money in the pot than people earning much more in a job they want to do.

Not entirely sure why exactly you feel insecure enough to be attack to folk. Perhaps look into what might make you feel happier in life

You've got a massive chip on your shoulder OP, it's showing. What a bizarre reaction to someone telling you some exciting news.

University is the right choice for people who want a career for which a degree is essential. For those people the financial investment of loans and deferred earning is a good one.
For others, its of very limited benefit to their career prospects. Long gone are the days when a degree denoted a higher level of intellectual ability. Its so commonplace the graduate no longer stands out in the workplace, and preferences have swung in some sectors towards young people who have started jobs at a young age, demonstrating work ethic and gaining adult life experience.
Many young people are to an extent being conned into parting with large sums of money on the expectation they will be seen as desirable employees at the end of it. The large numbers of graduates struggling to find work shows how many are disappointed. Some of these would undoubtedly have been better off with a higher earning potential had they chosen to train for a trade.
So, my take would be, go to university as part of a career plan. Know where that degree will take you, and if you don't, seriously consider other options.
There are of course social benefits to university, but for people who can't rely on the cushion of family financial support, and whose success will depend on their own employment, that may be a luxury they can't really afford.

I think because most people are lectured endlessly at school about how unworthy their lives will be if they don't go to higher education. Teachers will regularly tell children that they will end up in the gutter or on the scrapheap. On television and in public conversation, only university is discussed as an option for young people, and assumed as a shared life experience, even though most young people don't go. So people feel a bit shit and defensive about it, even if they really are happy with their lives in reality.

Both are equally valid life paths and different individuals will prefer different paths.

You sound like a total dick for putting down your friend. Maybe she was too, can't tell from your description.

Don't be a dick.

That certainly makes sense.

My 18 year old ds received his A level results yesterday and has been offered a software engineering apprenticeship degree with a major telecommunications company.

He earns a salary, on the job experience, and his degree is paid for by the company as well as having the security of long term employment (most apprenticeships lead to permanent employment) He didn't want student debt and can remain at home too - I think this is a fantastic route for young people.

If he wasn't as academically gifted I would have been equally happy for him to learn a trade - electricians/plumbers/joiners etc are in high demand and is a good career path.