Boundary vs ultimatum..?

[PlayYourOwnKindOfMusic]

Can I just get my head around something here?

When does a boundary become an ultimatum?

I set a boundary with my boyfriend. He agrees with me and is happy with it but has taken a passive (avoidance) approach to dealing with it rather than an active (direct) approach in the hope this other person will take the hint for reasons I completely understand. It's been effective in reducing this other person's opportunity but not their intent or persistence.

However, the hint hasn't been taken and so, unfortunately, a more direct approach is necessary. He says he will but really hoped it wouldn't be necessary and I can tell he's not comfortable with it which I understand. He doesn't argue or fall out with anyone..

However, I'm not prepared for it to be a repeat conversation. I'm not prepared to just discuss and discuss again until the cows come home. He either takes a direct approach and puts a stop to it now or I'll walk away.

I want to make this crystal clear to him. If he isn't comfortable/can't/doesn't really want to put a stop to it for whatever reason, that's fine but I will end the relationship and walk away because the situation is not something I want to be live with.

How do I do that and make it clear without it sounding like an ultimatum?

I suppose I haven't really set a 'boundary' so far, just said it's something I'm not happy about and why. He agreed and said he'd put a stop to it but his efforts do far have only been partially successful and aren't realistically sustainable.

Hi @PlayYourOwnKindOfMusic. I commented on your other thread, and had wondered how things had been going since you spoke to him.

You described your BF as naturally friendly, tactile and flirty, without truly flirting. After you 2 connected, he dialed down the flirty banter with this woman, but she escalated to more extreme ‘pick me dance’ moves toward him while clearly goading you.

I agree that he hasn’t done enough. Whereas he has told you that your relationship means so much and he doesn’t want to ‘fuck it up,’ he is doing just that by allowing her outrageous line-crossing and not definitively shutting her down with a very firm verbal boundary.

This woman is not a friend to your relationship, and I would absolutely give him a heads-up of what he will lose if things don’t change.

Single mum knock it off with the whataboutery.

Dont you even fucking dare compare a hug from this weirdo to the sort of sexual assault women are often subjected to. She’s not in a position of power over him, he’s not financially dependent on her. She can’t overpower him or rape him or put him in hospital. She’s just a fucking garden variety WEIRDO hugging him in public.

Youll be suggesting he reports her to the police for assault next. He’s not a victim, he chats to this dickhead on line.

Hes a sap. End of. This weirdo is emasculating him and upsetting the op and he’s too gutless to tell her to stop. And if he’s too scared to send her a firm message or block her the op is well rid.

This man can’t stick up for himself and will be unlikely to be able to stick up for the op if the need arises.

.

You are his girlfriend not his creator. That means you can give him advice and your advice should be incredibly influential. But it isn’t gospel. He can and should be free to make his own decisions in life based on his opinions and that of others.

This is something you need to come to terms with in any relationship. Your friend, partner, family members aren’t always going to do things your way or because you suggest it. That doesn’t need to cause conflict if what they do and how they do it is reasonable.

Obviously you don’t want to be at odds frequently and to the extent you can’t function as a unit. That is incompatibility and a good reason to end a romantic relationship. Nobody is right or wrong in this circumstance.

It’s his decision about he treats unwanted advances from this woman. He isn’t being disrespectful to you because he is not encouraging it and has told her to stop. But there are a lot of good reasons not to have a confrontation with her. Which might not work out the way you want it to. There is a lot of unintended danger in a man challenging a woman in an angry way. People aren’t going to understand the subtlety of this situation and she will make more trouble for both of you.

She sounds like a dangerous woman, a trouble maker. She is making him anxious and you angry. These are feelings you need to talk about. She will make trouble even if you split. My solution to this is to ask why you have in her in both your lives. Walk away from whatever it is you have in common. Join a new group and meet new people.

But I can’t help but think that your reaction is what she is looking for and getting. It’s a fight with you she wants and she feeds off your anger. Maybe it’s you who needs to think about how you are responding and why it’s not working.

I just think a clear message that it's unwelcome needs to come from the men. It's not for the women to manage the situation really.

Why on earth do you think it's specifically men's responsibility to handle this toxic woman? There are some weird assumptions going on here. Do you think men are more authoritative? Or should be more authoritative?

It's completely valid for him to deal with unwanted advances via avoidance. You don't get to choose his level of conflict for him.

It's completely valid for you to tell her to cut it out. If you're happy with conflict, why not go ahead?

It would be more healthy for both of you to take many steps back from her and from this social group. Maybe you have to grit your teeth in the next few social events you've committed to but after that you should be thinking about not having her in your life at all. If that messes other people around, so be it.

I'd be inclined to try what I'm going to call a concern jellyfish back.

Take her for a coffee, grab her hand i? a sympathetic pat and say.

"Suzy, are you ok? I'm really worried about you. Ever since I started seeing Brian you have been acting very strange. People have started to talk about you. The way you are acting -give some examples- is coming across as desperate and making people feel uncomfortable and embarrassed for you. Is everything ok with husband? You know I'm always here to talk or I can recommend a really good therapist."

If threatening to pull out of the next few weekend commitments will cause problems for the whole group, I think that would be an excellent course of action to take. It will force your DP to face the issue and deal with it or lose you.

What you need to do next time she throws herself at him while looking straight at you... is to burst out laughing.

She won't be expecting that, will she?

OK. So quick update...

Thanks for all the responses. I just wanted to clarify a few things.

He's not 'wet' and he does and would have my back. However, he isn't a confrontational person. He's very gentle and kind and not at all aggressive so comments about an "angry man" confronting a woman are irrelevant. Neither have I reacted to anything she's said or done. In fact, until this week, I've been perfectly friendly and normal with her. So I'm not 'feeding' it in any way.

Anyway, we spoke at length about it on Tuesday evening. I told him what she'd said about his kids. He had a few things to say about that. He thinks her motivation is more about power and wanting to get one over on me rather than fancying him. I'm inclined to agree.

Anyway, we all went out last night for our weekly activity meet up and it was interesting...

He handled it perfectly. He ignored all of her efforts to catch his attention from gazing at him with "starry eyes" almost constantly; to trying (and failing) to insert herself into a chat he was having with someone else; to throwing her head back in laughter to a really lame joke he made that the rest of us eye rolled at; to (no word of a lie) dashing across the room to pick something up he had dropped and hand it back to him that he was more than capable of picking up himself. He just ignored all of it - said "thank you" for the thing she picked up for him out of politeness but didn't engage any further. It was weird and really obvious!

She made an acerbic comment to me out of his earshot - it wasn't so much what she said but the way she said it. It was the only thing she said to me all night.

And then.

I'd forgotten this but she doesn't know I'm going on the weekend away. It was something they had all booked but got cancelled for lockdown. I was invited but couldn't make the original date. I only decided a few weeks ago that I was going after my boyfriend persuaded me to. And it just hasn't been mentioned.

Last night, she was having a conversation with 2 other women about it. I was out of earshot so, although I could hear their voices, I couldn't hear what was being said specifically until she referred to a cute/sexy outfit she was going to take with her. She mentioned it 3 or 4 times and it felt really forced by the end. She was the only one speaking loudly enough for me to hear so I didn't hear the responses and after that, she went back to speaking at a volume I couldn't hear. He wasn't in the room at the time so it wasn't for his benefit.

It felt very much that she was saying it for my benefit to, as my boyfriend has said previously, unsettle me and make me feel insecure as she thinks he'll be spending the weekend in her (and her cute/sexy outfit's) company and away from me. It did neither of those things. But it very much felt like a 'gloves are off' moment and I suspect she is going to escalate now...

When we left, he just said to me in front of everyone, "Right, come on let's go," said a general goodbye to everyone and, whilst everyone else said bye, she stood there and just said, "Oh. OK then," in a surprised tone, which is a weird response to someone saying they were leaving at the end of an evening when others had already left...

We didn't talk about it after we left so he doesn't know about the acerbic comment or the outfit bit but I feel I want to tell him just so he's in the loop and because I want to tell him he handled it well.

As I said before, I'm autistic. So, whilst I find her behaviour irritating, I'm also fascinated by it!

I'm not wrong about this, am I? She really doesn't like me, does she..? And she's not a friend to him any more than she is to me.

Well played. OP's b/f 😘(no I'm not flirting with him tee hee)

We didn't talk about it after we left so he doesn't know about the acerbic comment or the outfit bit but I feel I want to tell him just so he's in the loop and because I want to tell him he handled it well.

Yeah, this is a good plan. You both seem to be finally on the same page about this, so keep him updated as to your own experience, just so that you are able to keep operating as a cohesive team.

I'm not wrong about this, am I? She really doesn't like me, does she..? And she's not a friend to him any more than she is to me.

You're not wrong, she has no concern for you apart from your use to her as a pawn in the gameplaying she is compelled to enact as a way of life.
All your updates about her - from disliking you when initially meeting you for being 'too pretty' or some such nonsense, right through to her ludicrous but malicious interactions at/around you should have you 100% convinced that you are correct.

I hope you enjoy these planned events, & are able to relax in the knowledge that no - you are not wrong, & yes - other people will be seeing what you are seeing, & know that this woman is a batshit pain in the arse.
Her performative antics are making her look ridiculous - toxic femininity at its finest - & I think PP gave you sound advice when they said you need to stop feeling challenged by this twat, & learn to laugh at her.

You have been with this man for 6 months.

From your messages it seems like you have no trust in him, or serious trust issues yourself. Your boyfriend doesn't sound remotely insterested in this woman yet you are putting it on him to do 'something' Her issue is with you, and your issue is with her, not him. You also say, and I'm paraphrasing, that he is "bringing it on himself to maintain the status quo" Please don't vistim blame people, and before posters get on their high horse about being over dramatic, if this was gender reversed that's exactly what would be said. If someone gave me and 'ultimatum' after 6 months for something that wasn't my fault I'd be gone. Maybe you need to examine what's going on with you. You either trust him or you don't. Also it might be time to cut yourself out of the friendship group is this b*tch is still hanging around harassing people.

Thank you! Haha, tbh, he deserves a 🥰!

Last night, it felt like she was almost overplaying her hand.

Shame because I actually quite liked her.

Last night, it felt like she was almost overplaying her hand.
All entirely in keeping with the Script OP.
She felt your b/f's small change in tactics, & went in for the full Extinction Burst -
fortestrong.com/extinction-burst-what-is-it-and-how-can-you-use-it-to-your-advantage/

You might want to share the link with your b/f.
And DO remember to have a good laugh about it!
Once you get your head round the psychology, & start according this woman the headspace she deserves, your entire problem will diminish.
You are playing to her hand by being bothered by her, instead of finding her utterly ridiculous.

Thank you. Yes, that's exactly what it was like.

I think that, after last night, he will have got it more. He was brilliant and I think his move at the end of the night really showed it.

It is a bit of a shift though, seeing someone you regarded until very recently as a friend change so dramatically! Or at least, be so obvious about it. And no, I don't think anyone would have missed it.

I think, after last night, we will be able to laugh/joke about it. It certainly feels 'smaller' to me today than it did.

I think, after last night, we will be able to laugh/joke about it. It certainly feels 'smaller' to me today than it did.

Hurrah for the value of honest communication.
b/f sounds like a keeper. (btw, I thought he was a keeper before the Heroic Update ... but you've just had a proper demonstration from him that you can trust him to listen, understand, & act. That's a straight-up bonus on all fronts, never mind Ms Performative Twat).

Sounds like a good result.

I was hoping for an update on how last night went, and that was moat satisfactory.

He really is. And yes, I can.

😊

Good result op. And I totally got where you were coming from. And we'll done OP's BF!

Quick question...

Having read the Extinction Burst link, and having a bit of a read around it, I think that's exactly what happened on Wednesday night.

I just wondered if anyone wise (if there's anyone still following!) has any idea what she might do next.

I've thought about it

We have one of our planned, unavoidable events this weekend.

My feeling is that she will continue to up the ante with this behaviour for the next couple of weeks. Until the weekend away that she doesn't know I'm attending.

I don't think she will message him because she now knows that he is likely to share it with me.

But I think she might plan to approach him at some point (possibly during the weekend away) and do the whole, "I'm really sad. Have I done anything to upset you? I really value your friendship. I don't want to lose you as a friend," thing to try and break down his boundaries. I know it's up to him to maintain them but I also want us to be a united front on this.

I know I'm overthinking it. But unfortunately that's the nature of autism. I can't leave it alone and it rattles round in my head until I feel I have a plan.

I think she'll wait for the weekend away because she doesn't know I'm going and so thinks I won't be there to get in the way.

Can't predict what she'll do next but be prepared for:

Strutting around in the 'sexy outfit' (bleugh, the phrasing is SO NAFF!) she was ostentatiously bragging about. So what? She''ll just be making the standard tit out of herself she usually does.

Replay of her standard operating procedure with attempts to engage b/f while sliding you a poison eye. You could have fun with this one. She thinks it disconcerts you. Imagine her chagrin when you respond unexpectedly, with a cheery wave, or a "hello again, aren't you funny with your little grimaces at me, are you feeling ok?"

Attempts to 'recruit' women members against you. Usual playground/office bitch type manoeuvres. You can safely dismiss them - everybody knows who you, b/f & she are, & will know she's doing her usual weird thing.

Attempts to enlist Flying Monkeys. "I'm worried about b/f - do you think he & OP are ok ...?" or "OP is Being Funny With Me, please gang up on her with me / go & ask her what her problem is / take my side because it's ME who is the victim here..." Again - you can safely ignore, because 1) everyone already knows who you are, & what she is like, & 2) you hold the necessary role in the Club, & everyone needs you. She's dispensable. You won't be the first woman she's pissed off with her competitive man-goading, & b/f won't be the first man to be disconcerted by her.

Chumming up to you again. Just keep it neutral, & disengage a.s.a.p.

The last one could be quite likely - as your unexpected presence will gobsmack her, & may make her change her tactics.
But whatever she does next - remember IT IS JUST TACTICS which you have no need to engage with or be bothered by. This woman has some odd personality disorder stuff going on, everyone else is aware of it, & you have nothing to prove or 'win'.

KettrickenSmiled

Thank you. That's pretty much what I was anticipating although I thought sheight try to speak with him directly about it rather than enlist flying monkeys. I don't really want to keep talking to him about it but I think I need to for now. Just so he is also aware. Thanks again.

Oh and yes, she has said to me before that she struggles with female friendships and that they seem to drop her for no reason. She seemed quite confused by it. I'm not surprised if this is how she behaves generally.

Good analysis above.

I too would agree that she will try to return to a friendship if she is successfully rebuffed.

Be prepared to be cool, breezy yet vague..