Boundary vs ultimatum..?

[PlayYourOwnKindOfMusic]

Can I just get my head around something here?

When does a boundary become an ultimatum?

I set a boundary with my boyfriend. He agrees with me and is happy with it but has taken a passive (avoidance) approach to dealing with it rather than an active (direct) approach in the hope this other person will take the hint for reasons I completely understand. It's been effective in reducing this other person's opportunity but not their intent or persistence.

However, the hint hasn't been taken and so, unfortunately, a more direct approach is necessary. He says he will but really hoped it wouldn't be necessary and I can tell he's not comfortable with it which I understand. He doesn't argue or fall out with anyone..

However, I'm not prepared for it to be a repeat conversation. I'm not prepared to just discuss and discuss again until the cows come home. He either takes a direct approach and puts a stop to it now or I'll walk away.

I want to make this crystal clear to him. If he isn't comfortable/can't/doesn't really want to put a stop to it for whatever reason, that's fine but I will end the relationship and walk away because the situation is not something I want to be live with.

How do I do that and make it clear without it sounding like an ultimatum?

I suppose I haven't really set a 'boundary' so far, just said it's something I'm not happy about and why. He agreed and said he'd put a stop to it but his efforts do far have only been partially successful and aren't realistically sustainable.

tell him the things he is trying are not working, so he needs to be more direct, tell him exactly how your feel and that you are reconsidering the relationship as he doesn't seem able to shut this down even knowing how you feel about it.

You need to know he has your back, life is long and hard and if he can't do this for you, then what's he going to be like when something big happens.

Thank you! I think you've just summed up how I feel perfectly.

How often do you see her op? It sounds fairly often. If you did end it with him would you still go out with the group and then have to hang out with an ex and a smug cow who would know (or guess) she had caused the relationship to end? Or would you lose a friendship group? Her behaviour’s annoying me and you’re an Internet stranger! I wonder if you could just develop a Mumsnet head tilt or eye roll when she’s around?

I'd walk away and lose the group. There are perhaps 2 9r 3 people I'd make an effort to keep in touch with outside of the group but that's all.

I don't think her intention is to push me out. We do an activity together mid week and most weekends over spring and summer. I'm the only person who can do what I do in the group and I'd be hard to replace. It would negatively impact on everyone if I left.

I enjoy it too although I do the same activity elsewhere too so it would impact on me less. But it is good fun when we all do it.

I just can't believe she's pushed it to tthis extent though tbh.

I'm still a bit confused as to how exactly you think he can shut this down and why you don't think it's your place to do it.

I also don't understand why you haven't distanced yourself more from her. She sounds awful and yet you're still doing an activity with her once or twice a week AND going away with her? Maybe he's aware that if he confronts her, it's your social life that will be impacted?

You should probably just cut your losses and remove yourself from the social circle because that's where it's inevitably headed. Life is too short to be keeping toxic frenemies so close. But this is something you should be doing yourself, not haranguing your boyfriend to do. And I'm still uncomfortable that you seem to think it's OK for you to dictate how he responds to all of this.

I'm still a bit confused as to how exactly you think he can shut this down and why you don't think it's your place to do it.

How do other people shut down unwanted flirting? Like that I suppose.

Everything was fine until the New Year. . We didn't see her much then until Feb and he thought she was just being extra friendly because she was happy he and I had got together. She and I had a night out late Feb/early March which is when she told me that she knew he really fancied her but I was safe because she wasn't going to act on it. She's the one doing the flirting and I hadn't said anything about it.

I am happy to remove myself from the social circle but I feel its only fair to give him warning that that is what I'm going to do and give him chance to put a stop to it.

Women manage to shut down unwanted flirting from men all the time, it's hardly the first, or last, time anyone will have had to do it!

In this situation I'd directly approach her. I'd speak to her as a friend and say you've seen what she does and how she looks at you, and that if she's any sort of friend, she will stop.

If she doesn't, then you have your answer and can cut her out - and then is the time when your partner has to decide - does he have your back or not?

Women manage to shut down unwanted flirting from men all the time, it's hardly the first, or last, time anyone will have had to do it!

Most women are aware that success in shutting down unwanted flirting depends on the person doing the flirting, and if a man is determined to override their boundaries it's not actually their fault.

Your insistence that your boyfriend is somehow at fault here is quite disturbing.

You're the one failing to set the boundaries, anyway. He has told her to back off, and she has ignored him. Meanwhile you are happily socialising with her twice a week and going on holiday with her.

She's not your friend and you know this. Even if he magically found a way to get her to stop flirting, what friendship you ever had is dead. So how about you take the necessary steps to cut her out of both your lives.

The thing is, Christmas, she's not my friend anymore. I sent her a message a couple of weeks ago which has gone unanswered.

Just stupid things like, she previously commented and liked all posts on SM. I changed profile pic over the weekend for the first time in 3 years. She's normally the first to respond to things like that and nothing.

She's making her feelings towards me very clear and I don't understand it. She's the one who's behaving inappropriately!

I don't feel I could have the conversation with her now.

It's not that simple in a group situation and I've already explained that leaving it would have a knock on effect on others that is not their fault. It would effectively end the activity we all do.

He told her to back off once and she responded as though it were a joke. I would like him to be clear and direct about it. Rather than a reaction to her doing something, a more direct proactive response. If she ignores him after that, well it's a different matter.

The weekend away in a couple of weeks is something he and I are both looking forward to and he has already said he intends for the two of us to spend it together away from the others. Because of this.

And I'm not 'happily socialising with her'. I'm in the same social space but we no longer speak other than to maintain a civility for the group.

I feel like my hands are tied. I don't want to be part of it but I don't want to let the others down.

How long have you been with your partner, and what is the social group?

How long have you been friends with the woman?

I've been in the group for around 4 years which is as long as I've known both of them. She's been in it for a year longer which is as long as she's known him. He and I have been together for 6 months. She and I were friends for around 3 years as she didn't like me initially because she thought I was prettier than her (according to her).

This only started after Christmas when we had been together for a couple of months.

He has a friend in the group he's known for 30+ years. Everyone else has joined the group over the past 5 or 6 years or thereabouts.

Until this, it was a really close group with no problems, no arguments, no dramas, no fall outs. And now, out of nowhere, this.

She doesn't seem to have any respect for me, him, any of the friendships or his and my relationship or herself, tbh - it's just bizarre.

You've no been with him long. If you issue an ultimatum, you will probably end the relationship and she'll be in there like a ferret down a drainpipe, or she'll revel in having split you up.

i'd try to ignore and let her make a show of herself

Sorry i may have mis-read but did you say whether you had told your partner that she had told you 'she knows he fancies her but dont worry your safe' ?

Because i think my next step would be to give him all the information. I can see why he wouldnt want to cause uproar in a friendship group of many years - but equally if he only thinks of her as being ' overly friendly ' when in group situations, that doesnt appear as serious as to be making up false information regarding him. Not only is she actively trying to be overly affectionate, she is trying to sabotage your relationship. Not only that - but silence on both of your parts regarding this comment would give her the understanding that it potentially could be true, if you were not confident enough to tell him it could be perseived as an insecurity of yours, and by him not correcting her directly on this statement could be seen as eing potentially true.
She needs putting in her place, else it is feeding into her delusion that your partner is interested in her.

Tell him all the facts, including the one about his children - because you run the risk of painting yourself to be over jealous without giving the full story. A united front is the best way to make this stop, with a direct 'fact checking' conversation between him and her, with you present.

I really don;t understand your position.
You BF is clearly not happy with the situation, he doesn't like the flirting, and flinches when he thinks she is touching him.
He has told her no, and she isn't listening.
If he gets stronger or more direct, he is risking upsetting the whole group, which he doesn't want to do.
She is counting on the fact that he won't rock the boat, and playing in to it.

This really is not your BF fault. I am really confused as to why you would risk your relationship and the friendship group and the activity that you clearly enjoy because of this woman. Blaming your BF really seems like victim blaming. Yes he can step it up a bit, but the more he does that, the more it looks like he is bothered or cares which feeds into her dynamic.
And you say women can shut down a man's flirting, well usually but not always if they are determined to continue.

I'd call her out in front of the whole group.
make her look a bit silly.
Or ask a couple of others in the group to call her out on it, if they have noticed too.

and I would be telling him about the comments about his kids, as that will give him courage to stand up to her more.

She isn't interested in him and she's married. I find it all very stressful. I'm autistic (which I didn't want to say but feels as though it might be relevant re the black and whiteness of my thinking).

I would find it easier to walk away than to ignore what she is doing and the impact of it. Even though I'd be very sad at the loss of a very good relationship.

I don't really want to issue a 'her or me' ultimatum because she is married and he isn't interested anyway but it does feel like it's come to that loyalty wise.

I'm not anxious that something might happen between them but the whole situation makes me anxious and I feel constantly vigilant. I don't like feeling like that.

but it does feel like it's come to that loyalty wise

but nothing you have siad suggests that HIS loyalty to you is in question in any way?

You're clearly uncomfortable, OP, and I'm sorry about that. My posts were to try and offer another perspective. I suppose you might try and stop seeing this relating to his 'loyalty' when it's his discomfort and conflict avoidance. You seem more bothered at inconveniencing the other members of the group than you do at imposing conflict on your DP regarding a situation he hasn't invited. All that said, if you feel this as an unbearable discomfort then it's either an ultimatum or even just making a decision to end the relationship if you've turned this situation into him failing a loyalty test.

Good luck.

I have told him everything except for the comment she made about his children.

I do feel he needs to put her straight and say something along the lines of "Look, I don't know why you've started doing this but I don't like it and I want it to stop" so there can be no confusion.

No but...

He doesn't want to say anything because he doesn't want to hurt her feelings or cause her upset. He doesn't want me to be hurt or upset either. If he says something to, he risks making her bit uncomfortable. If he says nothing, he risks losing his relationship with me.

He's choosing her peace of mind over mine and allowing her to use him to get at me for whatever reason she has decided to do it.

Evrytime he doesn't stand up for himself or me, he is complicit in what she is doing.

Poor guy can't win.

He has said something to her, but she's not listening. If he's more forceful, that could be really disruptive to the group and maybe he doesn't want that. Not everyone deals with confrontation.

He then has his girlfriend of 6 months, issuing ultimatums because she's unhappy about how he's handling things. How the girlfriend doesn't like how it makes her feel.

It sounds like the issue is you, and the woman is winding you up via your boyfriend, who's done nothing wrong.

Zilla1

I've already told him it's an unbearable discomfort. It would be preferable for me to walk away.

He doesn't want that but he doesn't want to say anything either.

He can't have both though because I can't cope with it. If he doesn't put a stop to it, or at least try properly, then I won't have any choice but to walk away. But I really don't want to feel I've pushed him into a corner with it either.

I want her to just behave like an adult and for it to go away.

It sounds like the issue is you, and the woman is winding you up via your boyfriend, who's done nothing wrong.

Other than to be complicit in it.

It's easier to just walk away

I understand, OP, and can and could see why you've got to where you've got to. If you've told him you find it unbearable and he's decided not to act further then that's his poor choice and you can't control him nor her. It's sad but all you can really do is control your own decisions. Good luck.

And I haven't issued ultimatums. I spoke to him about it. He also said he wasn't happy with it. It was him that said he was going to put a stop to it. I just told him what I'd observed and how I felt about it.

He said at least one other person had also noticed.

If he had said at the time that he didn't have a problem with it and wasn't going to do anything, then I'd have walked away then.