Boundary vs ultimatum..?

[PlayYourOwnKindOfMusic]

Can I just get my head around something here?

When does a boundary become an ultimatum?

I set a boundary with my boyfriend. He agrees with me and is happy with it but has taken a passive (avoidance) approach to dealing with it rather than an active (direct) approach in the hope this other person will take the hint for reasons I completely understand. It's been effective in reducing this other person's opportunity but not their intent or persistence.

However, the hint hasn't been taken and so, unfortunately, a more direct approach is necessary. He says he will but really hoped it wouldn't be necessary and I can tell he's not comfortable with it which I understand. He doesn't argue or fall out with anyone..

However, I'm not prepared for it to be a repeat conversation. I'm not prepared to just discuss and discuss again until the cows come home. He either takes a direct approach and puts a stop to it now or I'll walk away.

I want to make this crystal clear to him. If he isn't comfortable/can't/doesn't really want to put a stop to it for whatever reason, that's fine but I will end the relationship and walk away because the situation is not something I want to be live with.

How do I do that and make it clear without it sounding like an ultimatum?

I suppose I haven't really set a 'boundary' so far, just said it's something I'm not happy about and why. He agreed and said he'd put a stop to it but his efforts do far have only been partially successful and aren't realistically sustainable.

Tbh, I'm not really sure what to do about her ignoring me either. Ignore in return or kill with kindness and force her to speak to me?

Ideally, I'd like her to just stop and let things get back to normal. I obviously wouldn't be friends with her like before but I hate feeling like this.

I'd be tempted to ignore her when you are together then when anyone else is around then brightly ask questions she has to answer with more than a yes/no. You can't make her stop but you can make her appear unreasonable or force her to do things she doesn't want to do, at least until your DP acts or you end things.

Good luck.

Your DP isn't exactly doing anything wrong, but I can see that he isn't putting a stop to her either.
So your boundary is essentially if someone is massively flirting with him, he should shut it down. I'd say thats a pretty basic boundary for most people.

The fact he isn't doing that, even though he knows your feelings on it is leaving you feeling like you're issuing an ultimatum. Which you are only doing because he isn't respecting your boundary about this.

I can't see how a quick word with her from him to the tune of 'look margaret, you're making me really uncomfortable, you need to stop flirting with me' is so very hard.
I too be would annoyed as to why he can't simply do that. ts not going to cause a scene, he can tell her one to one, and then if she still doesn't stop you can bnoth come up with plan B.

It does seem like he'd rather just avoid a confrontation, making himself uncomfortable and possibly her uncomfortable, even if it means leaving you uncomfortable. Which is really not how this should be working.

RhythmStick

But at the moment, she thinks he wants it because he hasn't been clear enough that he doesn't. If he actually tells her to stop, it doesn't have to be in front of everyone, just that he's noticed and the other guy has noticed and I've noticed too so other people probably have too, he doesn't like it and he wants it to stop, then she may well do so. And, if she doesn't stop, well I would be in position to say something then.

Tbh, I'd be happy to go and say that to her.

But all the while she's looking at me smiling slyly over his shoulder or around at me

She is making absolutely sure that you notice.

It wouldn't bother me such if it weren't for the fact she looks at me while shes doing it and has made the comment about knowing he fancies her

She invented that to make you think that he's the one pursuing her, and to make you feel insecure in the relationship.

She still grabbed him for a hug as we left when he clearly wasn't going for one

She did that on purpose in the hope that it would cause an argument between him and you on the way home.

I have a suspicion that she fancies him like mad, and her advances have been rejected by him before. She knows that she can't have him, she's jealous as hell that he chose you, and by golly she's going to make sure that you can't have him either. The only way she can reinflate her own dented ego is by making you believe that he likes her more than he likes you. And maybe to plant the seed of doubt in your mind about whether he is trustworthy. That would be the death knell of the relationship, wouldn't it?

If you issue him with this ultimatum and split up with him, you will be handing her all the power and giving her what she wants.

She still grabbed him for a hug

Time then to say "Oh do put him down, you don't know where he's been" or, if you're feeling brave enough, "Leave my boyfriend alone, you slag".

I admire your diplomacy I think I'd have channel the bitch by now ......

Joking not joking

Chinned .....

Joking aside that what she wants a big fuss I'd laugh at her and how utterly pathetic she is

If he doesn't like confrontation and she's privately messaged him previously couldn't he just message her back? He could say 'Hi x, things seem to have been a bit strange between us lately and I'm concerned that you might have got the wrong end of the stick. I'm with y as you know and only interested in her, I apologise if I have inadvertently given you the wrong impression but your behaviour is starting to make me feel very uncomfortable. I'm sure your husband wouldn't appreciate it either. Let's just be civil in future and leave it to that, thanks z.'

She's also made odd comments about how close she is to his adult kids

My gob is truely smacked at least one of you is old enough to have adult children. TBH I had you as 35 max.

All the best op

Ultimatum is black and white. If making ultimatum you say things that paraphrase as: My way or highway, there is no other right way.

Boundary is yours. If communicating your boundaries then you say things that paraphrase as: This is my way and how I need to live. Can you manage that? My way isn't the only right way - what's your right way? (and be curious about the answer, don't invalidate it).
Then it's a discussion about a way forward you both can manage.
Or if that discussion is fruitless then you just take action. No threat (ie ultimatum), just make your move. Break up or whatever it is you need to do.

I have RTFT and appreciate the context but hope this helps answer the Q in the OP.

OP

I recall your last thread.

You are not being unreasonable at all.

He is happier for you to be upset than her.

It is that simple.

I would lose respect and attraction for him.

He sounds weak and passive.

Definitely not a partner that would have your back when it counted.

He is, by his inaction, showing you who he is.

I think you need to stop putting this hobby ahead of what works for you.

Cancel the weekend away and tell him that THEIR behaviour has put you off.

His silence makes him complicit IMO.

I wouldn't give him the soot of a big discussion, just that his silence has told you he is not concerned with your feelings and it would be better to finish things.

If he really cares, he will step up.
If he doesn't, he won't.

YANBU in this at all.

CarryonCovid

Tell me about it...

billy1966

Thank you. It's shit though because I agree with chisanunian.

With the exception that I don't actually thinknshe does fancy him like mad. Maybe she does but she certainly hasn't ever made a move on him. That much I'd put money on. She only ever sees him in a group situation and her husband is usually there.

Due to the nature of the hobby we do, he and I being together makes us a bit of a 'power couple' - she told me as much when we got together. I think she is jealous of my raised status (in her eyes). The thing is, for all his crapness in this situation, I do trust him. I know he wouldn't cheat - its not in his nature and there ae specific reasons I am confident about this. I also know he isn't interested in her. I'm not jealous or insecure around it. But indotn like her behaviour amd I don't like that his inaction makes him appear to be ok with it.

hidethetoaster

Thank you. That is really helpful.

Hawkins001

Thank you.

Staynow

Thanks I think it would be better dealt with head on but that's because that's how I do things. He'd have to be careful of the wording so that he wasn't handing her the power. I dont even know if she actually does think he fancies her in reality. Or whether she just needs to believe it

Lindisfarne1

Thanks.

blacksax

I just don't think it should come from me at all...

He is happier for you to be upset than her.

I think it's easier in his eyes. He doesn't want me to be unhappy.

She's also made odd comments about how close she is to his adult kids. He doesn't know she's said this to me - apparently they feel more comfortable talking to her than either of their parents (in reality, she barely knows them and he'd be pissed off if he knew she was saying that especially as one of them finds her overbearing and doesn't actually like her).

What is stopping you from discussing this with him?
As plainly & clearly as you have just explained above.
This specific oddness about his kids goes far beyond attention-seeking flirting or competitive dominance displays. It's ... disturbing.

She sounds personality disordered, frankly.
I remember her from your previous thread. She's like a character from a Julia Davies sketch.

Your b/f needs to stop being so damn English (assuming he is!) & next time she gets previous with him, just tell her to piss off. If he can't do that ... well, how can you continue to have respect for him?

It's a bit weird that you're blaming him for his reaction to unwanted sexual advances. Would you tell a woman who had chosen to avoid a man who'd come on to her that actually, she should call him out and create a confrontation?

She's expecting nothing from him that she wouldn't do herself were the situation reversed. She says so in her 2nd post.
It's not weird, & neither is she asking for him to "call out" or create any confrontation - she just want her b/f to shut this unpleasant woman down.

She's expecting nothing from him that she wouldn't do herself were the situation reversed

More than that, I have done it. Many times. All women have had to shutdown unwanted flirting from men.

And the ones who don't listen, I just have nothing to do with anymore.

This would put me right off him.

Op, I think this is really victim blamey. She knows that he is uncomfortable with her behaviour and that he doesn't like it, she is just ignoring it and his clearly stated not interested.

By your own posts he has:
Moved away when being touched without consent.
Flinches when she touches him.
Has verbally told her he is uncomfortable with her physically touching him without his consent.
Ignored messages where she is flirting.

If a man was doing this and then went on to sexually assault the woman would you be saying that she should have just been more direct?
So much of our communication is done indirectly i.e. body language, rather than verbally and all of his indirect communication is screaming leave me alone I'm not interested, she is ignoring this because she wants to not because she thinks he is OK with her behaviour towards him.
Not everyone in the situation where they are being sexually harassed (which is what this "unwanted flirting" actually is) feels strong enough to be as direct as you state you have been in the past and verbally say "stop", but make no mistake she is very clear that he is uncomfortable but is carrying on regardless because she gets a satisfaction from it.
I can get why you are uncomfortable with her behaviour and frustrated at the situation but I think you need to sit with your bf and talk about what he feels comfortable with in dealing with his ongoing sexual harassment.

Victim blaming my arse. “ If a man was doing this”. It’s completely irrelevant.

why is he even still communicating with this dickhead?

id think a lot less of him for tolerating this shit. She’s making an absolute fool of him and he’s allowing it.

Complete agree.

She just wants him to shut it down.

The OP isn't jealous.
She trusts him completely which is believable, however, he is allowing this woman to be inappropriate.

Why would the OP want to be around that?

She is perfectly reasonable to simply NOT wish to be around it.

By tolerating her behaviour, he is being diminished in her eyes.

He comes across as so wet.

What a strange situation.

Are you the drummer and you're all in a band?

The only one with a hgv licence to drive the mini bus for a walking group?

Qualified marionette spinner in a marching band?

The mind boggles...

Back in the real world if a married woman is glomming onto your boyfriend then you call her out on it. You ask her husband why he's putting up with it. You ignore her if she ignores you. She sounds like a dick anyway. Or your bf can just say he doesn't like being pawed.... it does not have to be a huge psychodrama.

If a man was doing this is not irrelevant, anyone continuing with unwanted touching, continuing inappropriate messages where they have been ignored and clear verbal communication of "get off me" is sexual harassing regardless of gender. Just because it is a man getting sexually harassed, because he hasn't been able to make a verbally strong enough statement of back the fuck off he is complicit and enjoying the attention?
Not everyone is able to give a strong verbal response to sexual harassment for several reasons, that doesn't make them complicit just because of their gender. It is extremely relevant because we know about how much women get abused, sexually harassed and give allowances for women not being able to voice their discontent and discomfort at unwanted touching, flirting etc but think that men are always able to voice that same discomfort and discontent because they don't have that fear of what the other person might do, that power imbalance but that doesn't mean that there aren't reasons men may not be able to do that for different reasons. He is not responsible for this woman's actions towards him. He has given her clear signs that she is making him uncomfortable (moving away, flinching, telling her to get off) and she is ignoring him. Yet it's his fault because he hasn't been clear enough (he has, she is ignoring him). I mean sounds victim blaming to me.
If he was playing into it, I'd be done no boundaries/ultimatums to even talk about cos who has time for men like that but he has been clear that he doesn't like it and is not responsible that this woman is ignoring it and continuing with this behaviour.