Please help me unpack this thing with my mother.

[Westmeathtip]

She’s in her 70s, widowed and splightky, still working, very fit. Very religious.

Im in my 40s, in final throes of divorce, 3 kids.

My exH was a twat, lazy, gaslighting abusive cruel and a drunk. Not physically violent and held down a good job.

I tried to leave him about 6 years ago and was basically bullied and cajoled into staying; I should have gone then. I’ve called time after some colossal rows, my exH finally left 18 months ago. The relief is wonderful. I have a new squeeze, it’s early days but he makes me happy.

Anyway my mother:
I’ve not been able to put my finger get on what she does that winds me up, until this week when I realised that she simply doesn’t trust me. She doesn’t trust me to get anything right, or do anything properly. She second guesses and undermines my parenting, and I’ve also discovered that she has been in contact with my ex, facilitating calls between him and one of the children. (My ex has been admonished legally for parental alienation and for badmouthing me to the kids, and he has contact with them but it’s carefully managed)

She also doesn’t approve at all of my seeing someone else, to the point of rudeness and has told me to “keep it under wraps” and “just be strong and independent and focus on the divorce.”

Currently she isn’t speaking to me - I had covid all over the hols - she knew this and didn’t even text me - the kids were at their Dads and she doesn’t actually believe I had it, and that I was making it up so that I could spend more time with my BF.

So, given that trust is lacking, on both sides, where do I start? She lives locally and the children are fond of her and I’ve relied on her in emergencies for childcare. I’d rather not cut her off but I also don’t know how to move forward.

Thoughts please?

What was she like when you were growing up? Empathetic? Liberal? Prone to moods or shouting? Critical? Do you have brothers and sisters?

I have two younger brothers. One can do no wrong at all. She’s not huge on empathy especially where I’m concerned. Not in the least bit liberal. Uber Catholic. Cares deeeeply what other people think of her.

Interesting.

I guess what you are looking for on the thread is advice to minimise her negative impact on you?

Or are you interested in what is going on in her head?

Or wanting to improve the relationship?

(I advise A!)

Initial thinking was she doesn't want your attention anywhere but on her. If your ex gets to see the dc you have more time freed up..
For her..
And ex will be happy and willing to do favours for her also..
Win win in her eyes.

It sounds as if your mum is quite conscious of status and sensitive to criticism.

She possibly struggles and has always struggled to understand you a separate and autonomous person.

In criticising you she achieves two goings for herself:

She feels better about herself because you are bad
She keeps you dependent on her advice and good opinion, so she feels needed

Basically it is all about her.

Put post it notes up everywhere...remember...what she says is not about you. It is about her. She has no idea she is doing this and if challenged will say she does these things because she cates and because you need her wisdom.

Sadly, keeping more distance is the only other cure.

Emotionally separate from her. Tell her less about your life, your feelings, your concerns.

When she acts out, do not react (moan to a good friend instead).

Avoid conflict. She will thrive on it and you won't get anywhere.

Does this sound vaguely recognisable or workable?

She possibly struggles and has always struggled to understand you a separate and autonomous person.

This! In spades! If she doesn’t like something she’s amazed if I do, and vice versa. To the point that she finds it jarring in the extreme.

@Yummypumpkin “ Or are you interested in what is going on in her head?” This

I find it baffling that she can’t/won’t be happy for me. And without fail thinks the very worst of me, her assumption is always that I will have “done it wrong.” I don’t know why. I am perfectly competent, I do adulting pretty well, but she likes to think I’m a fuck wit. And lies to me.

@Santaisstilleatingmincepies tbh I think she thinks I should have the children all the time, that’s my role, and anything that isn’t child related is a dereliction of duty.

Aha!

So it might help to think (although really I encourage you to have less empathy for this unempathetic woman, and to remind yourself you are independent and very capable!) that in criticising you, she cannot understand why you do what you do.

She knows less of your world, your hopes, your priorities, your needs...because she has perhaps never been interested in them.

She thinks, as you say, that because she would do a thing, you should.

You really must discount her criticism. Take advice from others but she really does need to be ignored (if not literally, in terms of getting into debate about it).

The good thing with people like this is they tend to change their mind a lot anyway, and forget what they said......

It is a flaw within her.

She feels both competitive with you, and scared that in your life choices you will expose that she has lived an imperfect life, and she likes to boast of you to friends, which means you must fit certain criteria that are boast-worthy, rather than making you happy.

Finally she can never quite grasp that she does not control you. Your independent actions are objectionable and shocking to her.

Finally, she does not just think she is better than you, but better than everyone. And if everyone were more like her, the world would be better.

She feels she can tell you this whereas with others she might be a little more polite.

She grew up feeling not good enough. This was painful but overtime she developed a strong ego, and drowned out the youre not good enough voice in her head with a voice that told her, "you are quite special."

She can't praise you for long without that "you're not good enough" voice coming back.

It's sad. But in her head, she can only be good enough if she is better than someone. And as her only daughter you do make a convenient and emotionally rewarding target.

I'm sorry.

I feel I should say Finally one more time

Wow!!!!!!

Bloody hell that resonates very strongly. You’re v good at this!
I’ve suspected some sort of narcissist qualities about her for a long time but it’s a term that’s bandied about a lot.
I’m going to think a great deal about this.

It seems that you were raised by a narcissistic mother; such women cannot do relationships at all and regard their children as an extension of them.

You have two qualities your mother entirely lacks; empathy and insight. She was not a good parent to you when you were growing up and she has not changed. Keeping your distance is the only sure fire way to get any sort of decent treatment. Do keep your children well away from her also.

I would suggest you read "Will I ever be good enough?" by Karyl McBride.

Glad it was helpful. Do have a good long think and my advice generally is to use terms like narcissist to help you understand the individual and their thinking, and the challenges you face, rather than as an end point.

I wish you all well x

Get yourself onto Quora uk. Type narcissistic mothers in the search bar. There is a whole community dealing with them. Thousands of stories and great advice.

God it’s overwhelming

Is the short and long of it that

• there’s no point discussing it
• she can’t change even if she wanted to
• she has no understanding of what she’s doing?

Yes. The acceptance is hard. It's sad and it's like grief.

Where I differ from a lot of the pop 'experts' is that narcissism is a part of your mother, not the full person.

But sadly I do agree trying to discuss this, or expecting change is unrealistic.

She may change as she ages further, generally it mellows with age, but as she is already in her.70s, it's likely this will be limited.

And she does not really know either how destructive her behaviour is to her own relationships or to others.

I'm really sorry. It is a lot to take in.

How was her own marriage? My granny was like this to my mum (also a text book narcissist) It was pretty obvious she was jealous that my mum had the courage to leave an unhappy marriage when she couldn't leave hers. My guess is she's Irish? Sorry if I'm off the mark but you're describing a very Irish "type" and if so it's mostly due to the cultural conditions she grew up with. The internalised misogyny (seeing the DC as your responsibility/staying cosy with your ex) is not entirely her fault. If she's not Irish apologies for my assumptions!

She second guesses and undermines my parenting, and I’ve also discovered that she has been in contact with my ex, facilitating calls between him and one of the children.

I would find it very, very hard to forgive this.

possibly try to play her at her own game? Not that I'd generally recommend it.

But given that she's siding with your ex and colluding with parental alienation, I think strong measures are called for

Something along the lines of manoevering into the conversation that others know she's snuggling up to your ex and think less of her. In this situation of parental alienation, it doesnt even matter if you are lying. If you can prime other people to support you by dropping it into conversation with her even better. Not quite sure of the wording though!

Good luck; alienating your children is appalling.

@Fidgetty

How was her own marriage? My granny was like this to my mum (also a text book narcissist) It was pretty obvious she was jealous that my mum had the courage to leave an unhappy marriage when she couldn't leave hers. My guess is she's Irish? Sorry if I'm off the mark but you're describing a very Irish "type" and if so it's mostly due to the cultural conditions she grew up with. The internalised misogyny (seeing the DC as your responsibility/staying cosy with your ex) is not entirely her fault. If she's not Irish apologies for my assumptions!

Also Irish Catholic family background here and this rings very, very true re a few of my aunties. I don't even think they know they're doing it for those reasons but it's clear as an outsider. And it's so sad because they should be thrilled that other women in their family have managed to leave abusive relationships and be happy. They should be proud of them!

Yes we are Catholic - she was born here but the family is ostensibly Irish really, certainly in its sensibilities.

My father died a few months ago, I miss him and he kept her in check to some degree but she was appalling when he was dying and over his funeral. Really bad, it was all about her.

He was unwell in hospital for some time, related to his drinking, and was only allowed one visitor a day due to covid. Except my mum told us that he was only allowed HER and I found out by accident that he was allowed other visitors and had been asking for me and my siblings. She had said she hadn’t wanted to bother anyone.

On Father’s Day she said she was going to see him but instead didn’t go, and came to my house with presents for my kids to give to my ex husband. She said she knew I’d be annoyed but it was “important that the children knew how to behave.” So my poor dying Dad was left whilst she went shopping for my abusive ex. He died later that week.

God there’s so much. Those of you with Irish families will know that the funeral and death and stuff are a BIG deal and of all people he would have loved a big send off. But she was a fecking nightmare, and kept telling people not to bother themselves coming, she would just drive herself to church, there were to be no cars and no flowers, a right carry on. I stepped in and sorted out flowers and cars (because we are not fucking paupers and my poor dad would have been revolving in his grave at the thought!) and my siblings sorted a reception and in the end it was lovely but fuck knows she made it about her.

He nearly didn’t get buried because she kicked off about alcohol being mentioned on his death certificate and was going to fight the coroner and leave him unburied. Again, this will have Catholics gasping. She said she didn’t want his name besmirched. Total denial that he was an alcoholic of decades standing and that’s what had killed him ultimately.

Jesus that turned into a rant didn’t it?

But anyway that’s the logic I’m up against. I could hardly speak when she bought presents for the Ex. I told her to take them home again with her. But by then the kids were all “we need to buy presents for Daddy” so my arse was in Tesco the night before buying shite for him. (They got him a disposable barbecue and a pack of sausages and some ketchup)

So there we are. She’s currently not speaking to me and will not doubt be telling out ginormous family what a useless lump I am etc. Everyone else thinks she’s bloody brilliant cos she’s a charmer and is always singing my praises when it reflects well on her.

Can I just say that s is where mnet is brilliant, just brilliant. So much good advice on here! I'm going to come back another day and ask you all what you make of my Dad!

Parent/adult child relationships are so complex or can be.

So sad to hear of your Dad's passing. I'm eased you were able to give him a good send off.

I think that present is hilarious though!!!!!!!