Please help me unpack this thing with my mother.

[Westmeathtip]

She’s in her 70s, widowed and splightky, still working, very fit. Very religious.

Im in my 40s, in final throes of divorce, 3 kids.

My exH was a twat, lazy, gaslighting abusive cruel and a drunk. Not physically violent and held down a good job.

I tried to leave him about 6 years ago and was basically bullied and cajoled into staying; I should have gone then. I’ve called time after some colossal rows, my exH finally left 18 months ago. The relief is wonderful. I have a new squeeze, it’s early days but he makes me happy.

Anyway my mother:
I’ve not been able to put my finger get on what she does that winds me up, until this week when I realised that she simply doesn’t trust me. She doesn’t trust me to get anything right, or do anything properly. She second guesses and undermines my parenting, and I’ve also discovered that she has been in contact with my ex, facilitating calls between him and one of the children. (My ex has been admonished legally for parental alienation and for badmouthing me to the kids, and he has contact with them but it’s carefully managed)

She also doesn’t approve at all of my seeing someone else, to the point of rudeness and has told me to “keep it under wraps” and “just be strong and independent and focus on the divorce.”

Currently she isn’t speaking to me - I had covid all over the hols - she knew this and didn’t even text me - the kids were at their Dads and she doesn’t actually believe I had it, and that I was making it up so that I could spend more time with my BF.

So, given that trust is lacking, on both sides, where do I start? She lives locally and the children are fond of her and I’ve relied on her in emergencies for childcare. I’d rather not cut her off but I also don’t know how to move forward.

Thoughts please?

He did have a good send off in the end. And before that I’d been able to say all the things I wanted to say and that I loved him, so he died knowing he was loved. I sat with him the morning after he’d died and I think he was in the room but not in the body so I opened the windows. I have little chats to him when I go for a walk. Some days he’s there and others he isn’t.

she can’t change even if she wanted to

I think there is a general misconception that narcissists cannot recognise or decrease their self-centredness at all, probably because a lot of narcissists do not recognise their self-centredness at all and therefore see no reason to try to decrease it.

But it is possible for them to change, however what first needs to happen is them getting a major wake-up call by being forced to contemplate or experience strong negative (for them) consequences in response to their unhealthy behaviour patterns.

This generally only happens when someone who feels obliged to maintain a relationship with them (because they're family, or they have kids with the narcissist) wises up to their behaviours, has the strength and clarity to call them out in an assertive but not overly emotional way, and sets and follows through with consequences for those behaviours. (Anyone who doesn't feel a sense of obligation to maintain the relationship will likely just exit the narcissist's life and therefore the narcissist never experiences ongoing consequences for those behaviours.)

For example, in your mum's case, you might decide to focus on her tendency to undermine your parenting. If she says something critical to you about your parenting, you'll have a ready line, like "I'm sorry you don't agree with me, but as their mother, I have the right to do things how I think best, and this is how I want to do it." If she argues, you can follow up with, "Mum, I find it disrespectful when you won't accept my choices as a parent. Please drop it or I'm afraid I'll have to end this visit." If she keeps going on about it, you end the visit. Every time.

She'll probably get in a huff and cut you off for a while while moaning to others. It's unlikely to be forever though, as narcissists at core are desperate for approval and attention. Eventually she is very likely to come back, probably pretending that nothing happened, but perhaps she'll be more reticent about criticising you.

She might also start up with a criticism and then stop herself with a sarcastic, "Ooh, that's right, I'm not allowed to say anything about your parenting, am I?" in which case you ignore the sarcasm, take the high road by nodding pleasantly and say, "I know you have your own way of doing things, so thanks for respecting mine. I appreciate that."

Narcissists literally have to be taught how to behave decently through modelling and consequences when they misbehave. It can be especially trying to have to do this if you are their child, because a child is not meant to have to role-model to their parents how to behave in a healthy way. But that is the situation you are faced with. If you can commit to it, there's a reasonable chance that you can encourage some change.

@CheekyHobson

she can’t change even if she wanted to

I think there is a general misconception that narcissists cannot recognise or decrease their self-centredness at all, probably because a lot of narcissists do not recognise their self-centredness at all and therefore see no reason to try to decrease it.

But it is possible for them to change, however what first needs to happen is them getting a major wake-up call by being forced to contemplate or experience strong negative (for them) consequences in response to their unhealthy behaviour patterns.

This generally only happens when someone who feels obliged to maintain a relationship with them (because they're family, or they have kids with the narcissist) wises up to their behaviours, has the strength and clarity to call them out in an assertive but not overly emotional way, and sets and follows through with consequences for those behaviours. (Anyone who doesn't feel a sense of obligation to maintain the relationship will likely just exit the narcissist's life and therefore the narcissist never experiences ongoing consequences for those behaviours.)

For example, in your mum's case, you might decide to focus on her tendency to undermine your parenting. If she says something critical to you about your parenting, you'll have a ready line, like "I'm sorry you don't agree with me, but as their mother, I have the right to do things how I think best, and this is how I want to do it." If she argues, you can follow up with, "Mum, I find it disrespectful when you won't accept my choices as a parent. Please drop it or I'm afraid I'll have to end this visit." If she keeps going on about it, you end the visit. Every time.

She'll probably get in a huff and cut you off for a while while moaning to others. It's unlikely to be forever though, as narcissists at core are desperate for approval and attention. Eventually she is very likely to come back, probably pretending that nothing happened, but perhaps she'll be more reticent about criticising you.

She might also start up with a criticism and then stop herself with a sarcastic, "Ooh, that's right, I'm not allowed to say anything about your parenting, am I?" in which case you ignore the sarcasm, take the high road by nodding pleasantly and say, "I know you have your own way of doing things, so thanks for respecting mine. I appreciate that."

Narcissists literally have to be taught how to behave decently through modelling and consequences when they misbehave. It can be especially trying to have to do this if you are their child, because a child is not meant to have to role-model to their parents how to behave in a healthy way. But that is the situation you are faced with. If you can commit to it, there's a reasonable chance that you can encourage some change.

That's really useful thank you. I've realised that I do this with my Dad but my siblings don't and we have a totally different dynamic as a result

@Westmeathtip you might want to have a look at the Stately Homes threads on the relationships board, you’ll see you’re not alone in your situation.

@Westmeathtip

He did have a good send off in the end. And before that I’d been able to say all the things I wanted to say and that I loved him, so he died knowing he was loved. I sat with him the morning after he’d died and I think he was in the room but not in the body so I opened the windows. I have little chats to him when I go for a walk. Some days he’s there and others he isn’t.

I take it theirs wasn't a happy marriage?

'Also Irish Catholic family background here'

Same here, and I absolutely recognise your mother's behaviour in my own. I don't think this kind of behaviour is exclusively Irish by the way! Still, there is a lot I recognise in my own parents - unable to see their children as separate people from them, seeing independence as some kind of betrayal, undermining adult children and treating them like idiots, showing a strong preference for boys / men (like your ex) over girls, mothers being jealous of daughters. It's horrible, suffocating behaviour. You have had some great advice on here

And without fail thinks the very worst of me, her assumption is always that I will have “done it wrong.” I don’t know why. I am perfectly competent, I do adulting pretty well, but she likes to think I’m a fuck wit. And lies to me.

Wow - I get this used to be from both parents but in recent years it's usually just my DDad - only odd flash with DMum.

There's no reason at all for it - but I've also noticed DDad still doesn't really see Dsis and me as seperate people somehow in our 40s with very different lives so I don't think that's ever going to change.

LC if not phycially as little information about your life as possible - try and control the information flow - and as little interfernce oportunities as possible - would be my advice.

Gosh it’s amazing how many others recognise this pattern of behaviour.

In intimate relationships I’m very insecure, despite being quite confident in all other regards - but I have constantly second guessed my partners thinking they’re going to end it/don’t love me/are making it all up. Is that just a personality thing do you think or is it likely to be a consequence of my mother’s oddness?

It is a direct consequence of being raised by someone whose moods are erratic and who is not emotionally safe to be around.

You risk being attracted to narcisstic partners, as they are familiar, and tolerating poor treatment, as it seems normal.

You also risk being unable to trust fully and being insecure...ie anticipating a change in behaviour or regard.

Being aware of your subconscious mind is the best defence.

But also we are all individuals and you do not need to let this define you.

One word: boundaries.

You need to tell her firmly that you are the one who knows what's best for your kids and who organises their lives and that she has to stop undermining you and allowing your ex additional contact with your children.

If she can't respect you as a capable adult you will limit your contact with her.

You need to move from that space where you constantly care or worry about what your mother does, think or say to one where you know you are an adult and in charge of your life.

Her opinion of your new partner is irrelevant. All that matters is that you are happy with them.

She sounds like a narcissistic person. People like you mother will never change and will always make everything about them and their needs without respecting that of others.

They are also very good at manipulating others, making them doubt their own worth and conditioning people so that they can create a dependence so you always try to get the approval of someone who will never be satisfied/pleased with whatever you do.

You need to try to change your response to her attitude because right now you are given her too much power over you still.

I'm also from an Irish Catholic background and note that your brother 'can do no wrong'. IME Catholic sons are worshipped like the Baby Jesus and a daughter is often judged no better than she ought to be. Sorry, no advice, but I recognise that dynamic.

She feels better about herself because you are bad

No, she is furious with you because you getting divorced reflects badly on her (in her mind). When you were married with 3 children you were her achievement. Now you’ve shown her up. Having a new BF is showing her up more.

Being secretly in touch with your ex and facilitating contact with the DC outside of the agreed boundaries is unforgivable. Unforgivable. What a betrayal

OP was your dad an alcoholic? Because, narcissist or not, being married to an alcoholic is terribly damaging.

@WildishBambino yep. Babyjesus is about right. She hates his wife, who won’t stand for any of her messing. They’ve had a couple of spectacular rows and now avoid each other.

@Mamette she has always colluded with whomever she thinks will do her bidding. This isn’t the first betrayal, she fell out with me a few years back when one of my children was diagnosed with ASD. She went crackers and said I’d made it up, paid for a diagnosis for attention and there was nothing wrong with him. She has come to terms with it to some extent but she cut me off at the time and I forgave her.

“No, she is furious with you because you getting divorced reflects badly on her (in her mind). When you were married with 3 children you were her achievement. Now you’ve shown her up. Having a new BF is showing her up more.”

Fuck that’s it, isn’t it? In a nutshell. She’s ashamed. Of me.

@Porcupineintherough yes. She’s a big drinker too and whilst it may sound like I’m making excuses for my dad, she was absolutely his enabler and I think he drank at least in part as a consequence of her. She was also in denial about it. When he first went to hospital it wasn’t with anything related to his drinking but he had to stay in for a while and she wouldn’t tell the medics he was a drinker. He went into massive withdrawal and in the end I rang the ward and told them he was an alcoholic and they put him on the right drugs/withdrawal protocol. She was absolutely livid with me for that, and kept saying that he wasn’t that bad. Anyway he had repeated seizures as a part of the withdrawal and ultimately that’s what killed him, not the relatively simple thing he went in with.

So she struggles to see you as separate and autonomous and without fail thinks the very worst of me, her assumption is always that I will have “done it wrong.”

Therefore she thinks she gets everything wrong.

Or would if some superior (godly?) voice in her head didn't tell her how to get things right?

“ Therefore she thinks she gets everything wrong.”
No - she believes she is never ever wrong.

Then she does see you as separate and different.

You cannot be the same and always wrong, if she is always right.

Maybe so then.

Doesn’t really leave me anywhere different.

Treat her like a tantrum toddler.

My friend has had great results with this. Her Mum kicks off she picks up her bag waves cheerio and walks out her house. Sure she mouths off but friend ignores it.

Remarkably her Mum has been much better behaved since she implemented that strategy.

No, just interesting, seeing inconsistencies in her position.

@Westmeathtip

“No, she is furious with you because you getting divorced reflects badly on her (in her mind). When you were married with 3 children you were her achievement. Now you’ve shown her up. Having a new BF is showing her up more.”

Fuck that’s it, isn’t it? In a nutshell. She’s ashamed. Of me.

I’m sorry OP. I also have a mother like this. It’s difficult and there’s never a solution, it seems.

What about reducing contact (on your terms) and employing the grey rock technique when you do have contact.

If you want to keep her in your life, and that's a big if , then you treat her as a necessary acquaintance. She's there because you need her sometimes for childcare. Don't expect love,respect,trust or care . She'll never give you what you need, if you can't accept that or detach it's best to go NC. After all , she's quick to do it when YOU don't suit her needs. Otherwise you're just harming yourself.