Please help me unpack this thing with my mother.

[Westmeathtip]

She’s in her 70s, widowed and splightky, still working, very fit. Very religious.

Im in my 40s, in final throes of divorce, 3 kids.

My exH was a twat, lazy, gaslighting abusive cruel and a drunk. Not physically violent and held down a good job.

I tried to leave him about 6 years ago and was basically bullied and cajoled into staying; I should have gone then. I’ve called time after some colossal rows, my exH finally left 18 months ago. The relief is wonderful. I have a new squeeze, it’s early days but he makes me happy.

Anyway my mother:
I’ve not been able to put my finger get on what she does that winds me up, until this week when I realised that she simply doesn’t trust me. She doesn’t trust me to get anything right, or do anything properly. She second guesses and undermines my parenting, and I’ve also discovered that she has been in contact with my ex, facilitating calls between him and one of the children. (My ex has been admonished legally for parental alienation and for badmouthing me to the kids, and he has contact with them but it’s carefully managed)

She also doesn’t approve at all of my seeing someone else, to the point of rudeness and has told me to “keep it under wraps” and “just be strong and independent and focus on the divorce.”

Currently she isn’t speaking to me - I had covid all over the hols - she knew this and didn’t even text me - the kids were at their Dads and she doesn’t actually believe I had it, and that I was making it up so that I could spend more time with my BF.

So, given that trust is lacking, on both sides, where do I start? She lives locally and the children are fond of her and I’ve relied on her in emergencies for childcare. I’d rather not cut her off but I also don’t know how to move forward.

Thoughts please?

Yep

My yes is to Westmeathtip

she wouldn’t say anything direct, it would be all “oh you do look so tired and grey these days. I brought XYZ for the kids’ tea because I thought they’d like something nice.”

Oooh, she's a master. Magnificent control of plausible deniability.

I guess your approach has to be based on what you can reasonably tolerate. If you can get it super-clear in your head that her underhand sniping is all about boosting her own feeble ego by making herself feel better than you and nothing to do with anything genuinely wrong with you, you might be able to take a 'water off the duck's back' approach. "I'm feeling fine, thanks. I'm sure the kids will enjoy the tea." Accept anything real and nice that she provides without taking on board the hidden criticism.

But that only works if you can mentally get to a place where you don't take her barbs personally and entirely it as a personality defect on her part that has absolutely nothing to do with you in reality.

If not, really the only option is to reduce contact to the point where the stress she brings is balanced by the benefits she brings. If there is no level of contact where that's the case, there is no reason to have contact with her.

and *see it entirely

Exactly, and I'm not joking. Same here.

But it really helps to manage your expectations. You can have a fond relationship, without having your heart broken by her in this way, because the mother/daughter relationship isn't there. You may need to grieve for that.

Obviously all mums and aunts are different. This really helped me to make sense of things though.

There are degrees of malevolence with narcissism.

Some of the suggestions made... I think really wouldn't work when there is a 40 year history of expectations.

There really aren't any tricks that work with narcissists.

The only thing that works is building your own resilience, sense of self, ability to remain calm, communication skills etc etc etc

"You can have a fond relationship, without having your heart broken by her in this way, because the mother/daughter relationship isn't there. You may need to grieve for that."

I like this.

Subsquent stuff some like a lot of the game playing IL - especially MIL engaged in when kids were very young.

Everyone would tell us how lucky we were to have her as GM - they could never help us but couldn't do stuff fast enough for others. Also people would tell us how lucky we were IL funded everythig for our kids - so they'd buy a baby top - which we were greatful for - but people thought were apparently carefully led to belive they'd bought all the kids clothes- they gate crashed holiday everyone assumed they'd paid for it they hadn't. I started politely correcting people becuase I found it very upsetting and it died back a bit.

Locked door /chain seems to give MIL mental slap in face it's not her house and behavior is better - she doesn't try and rearrange everything.

Also if she starts housework etc in our house I disappear. I've noticed she had habit of doing this often we were busy on some time dependent task everyone would get worked up - she quietly sit down. Doesn't work anymore she's stopped doing it.

Anyone brings food - ignore the dig and think easy tea.

You have to change how you react to the behavior - with no reaction or firm no a lot of IL behavior over time has massively improved - though they did have to learn that not seeing them was an option first.

“ Also if she starts housework etc in our house I disappear. I've noticed she had habit of doing this often we were busy on some time dependent task everyone would get worked up - she quietly sit down. Doesn't work anymore she's stopped doing it.”

Wooah mine does this. Or tries to. And has everyone in a frenzy.

Thank you @MyFirstHypnosis. It takes time.

I hope you are OK OP. You are breaking the chain for your own DCs, which is wonderful.

“You are breaking the chain for your own DCs, which is wonderful”

Yes

Oh your looking grey and tired today. Laugh yes, I thought you looked grey too. Must be the weather.
She brings food. Oh thanks the children like that. Oh mum sorry no one eats that, good job you like.

This thread has really helped me.
I was recently sent flowers by my "D"M. I would have fallen back to, "why am I being nasty. Look what a lovely thing she did." Instead I see this as a response to me trying to set some distance between us and reducing contact. And i realise it is also an approval for something I did recently that meets her expectations of what I should be.

same here.

Small update: I’ve talked and talked to my Chap about this - he’s only met her briefly - and I’ve read everything I can find. I’ve dialled down contact as far as I can but we bumped into each other earlier this week in company and we’re civil. She was very pleased to see my children and one of them went over for tea after school, which was fine. But then he was returned to me, late, on a school night with blue hair! Blue! So I had to try and get it out - I managed but I needed that like a hole in the head frankly. What the hell was she thinking, or not thinking? I havent mentioned it, I couldn’t see the point frankly.

Blue!!!!

Blue. It was a spray one, but there is No Way he could have gone to school like that.

It seems like she's deliberately trying to get a rise out of you. I think that I would mention it in a low-key way next time she asks to have the kids. "Sure, that would be great. Please don't put any colour in the kid's hair again as he can't go to school like that and I had to scrub it out at 9pm and dry his hair before bed."

She is likely to protest that it was just a bit of fun, in which case you can respond, "That's fine but please don't do it again." The important thing is to set the boundaries but in a calm way that doesn't allow her to turn it into a drama.

If you ignore it, she might try it again and use any negative response to future hair colouring as a catalyst for criticism of you. "Well! You didn't say anything last time so I assumed it was fine! I never know what I'm going to get with you! You expect me to read your mind!"

I wouldn't say anything about the blue hair as I too suspect it was more than not thinking things through - though she may well claim this if tackled - and if she knows it will upset you or you ask not to do it again I expect it will happen more than if it's ignored.

I would make sure tea in future is Friday or Saturday or in holidays - again I wouldn't say that to her but put off any other dates she suggests and just keep suggesting dates that suit you.

I found the games people play book useful if very old - was lent to me by a friend's husband - helped me see patterns and avoid playing my role.

I've seen Toxic IL and Toxic parent books by Susan Forward recommended on here - but it's all about finding ways to manage the behaviors so they don't impact on you as much ideally not at all as they won't change.

Ah well what a shame he can't ever go on a school night ever again.

Lots of similarities with my own DM (Irish Catholic too!) I find her tricky to be around as well. She pidgeon-holed us all with traits when we were kids and apparently we are stuck with them.

She used to apologise to my flatmates having to put up with me in my twenties for being so messy. I'm actually quite tidy and was actually the tidiest of us all in the flat. My flatmates thought this was hilarious.

She's also convinced I cannot cook. Because once I had a kitchen disaster when I was in my teens. I'm actually a pretty decent cook and baker, and honestly, my Christmas dinner kicks ass. But she'll still rock up with bags full of food (which she then complains go to waste as I literally have nowhere to put it) because she doesn't trust that I'll have any food in.

She doesn't know me. She'll buy me something in yellow and tell me "I thought of you when I saw it that because it's your favourite colour" and Yellow isn't and never was, my favourite colour, and she's been told that so many times.

I have never and will never ask her to babysit for me. She made it clear she reared hers and her child-minding days are over, but she's babysat extensively for my other siblings at the drop of a hat. When she realised that her pre-emptive refusal to me had no impact and that I was managing fine with paid childcare, she started to offer. But she only wants me to ask so she can say no or tell people I'm taking advantage of her with childcare and be a martyr about it.

She's great at gaslighting as well. She'll tell me things she said I've said but has totally taken me up wrong. I could say "Oh today I'm going to the shop" and she will hear "Oh Drinking said she wanted to go to the shop by herself so I didn't go with her even though I wanted something from that shop myself" stuff like that happens all the time.

Those are the amusing anecdotes. There are more shocking ones that aren't for public consumption and ones that I've cried myself to sleep over.

I get pretty angry sometimes but deep down I know she won't change, and I'll never get her to see anything from my point of view. So I brace myself and do the minimum dutiful visits I can get away with, nod and smile and give away very little. DP hands me a massive drink when it's all over. How's work? Fine -tell her some meaningless anecdote about a project or a co-worker. Likewise when she asks about DP and DC. I give her a harmless anecdote but would never tell her important or private things. She would twist it into unrecognisable tales and spread it around the wider family. I learned my lesson there early on.

It became easier to deal with it once I knew what to expect though.

Sorry to hear your issues with your mother OP. I have found this thread enormously helpful myself in starting to understand behaviour in my own parent I feel I’ve finally found people other than my sibling that understand.