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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Please help me unpack this thing with my mother.

122 replies

Westmeathtip · 06/01/2022 19:25

She’s in her 70s, widowed and splightky, still working, very fit. Very religious.

Im in my 40s, in final throes of divorce, 3 kids.

My exH was a twat, lazy, gaslighting abusive cruel and a drunk. Not physically violent and held down a good job.

I tried to leave him about 6 years ago and was basically bullied and cajoled into staying; I should have gone then. I’ve called time after some colossal rows, my exH finally left 18 months ago. The relief is wonderful. I have a new squeeze, it’s early days but he makes me happy.

Anyway my mother:
I’ve not been able to put my finger get on what she does that winds me up, until this week when I realised that she simply doesn’t trust me. She doesn’t trust me to get anything right, or do anything properly. She second guesses and undermines my parenting, and I’ve also discovered that she has been in contact with my ex, facilitating calls between him and one of the children. (My ex has been admonished legally for parental alienation and for badmouthing me to the kids, and he has contact with them but it’s carefully managed)

She also doesn’t approve at all of my seeing someone else, to the point of rudeness and has told me to “keep it under wraps” and “just be strong and independent and focus on the divorce.”

Currently she isn’t speaking to me - I had covid all over the hols - she knew this and didn’t even text me - the kids were at their Dads and she doesn’t actually believe I had it, and that I was making it up so that I could spend more time with my BF.

So, given that trust is lacking, on both sides, where do I start? She lives locally and the children are fond of her and I’ve relied on her in emergencies for childcare. I’d rather not cut her off but I also don’t know how to move forward.

Thoughts please?

OP posts:
Yummypumpkin · 08/01/2022 14:34

@passmetheginpls

I'm so sorry I'm reading along too and don't mean to derail but could someone explain why psychodynamic therapy and 'not counselling' ? I'm having counselling for similar issues, am I going down a less helpful route here than I could have? Thanks x
If counselling is working for you and helping then that is great and keep going (it was me who made that comment).

Therapy is more challenging normally. It looks to build a quite intense relationship between patient and therapist so that the way you relate to others can be explored. So your trust issues, fears, aggressions and projections are acted out on the therapist and then explored. It is very challenging, less supportive.

Finally a therapist will often be PhD holder...they understand brain structures, chemistry etc...a counsellor often may have done a very short course, and not at a university.

But what matters is that you are becoming more aware of yourself and changing in how you relate to others, rather than simply 'getting things off your chest or feeling sorry for yourself, rather than actively challenging your own patterns of thought.

I didn't mean to dismiss counselling entirely, but with some of the issues the children of narcissistic parents face (often worse than for the OP) there is evidence for therapy and there is much more limited evidence for counselling.

I hope this helps at least explain why I made the comment, but if you find the counselling helpful I wouldn't want to knock it!

Yummypumpkin · 08/01/2022 14:35
Smile
RandomMess · 08/01/2022 15:27

You should be able to look up your "counsellor" and see what qualifications they have and what types of therapy the offer. Always worth doing.

passmetheginpls · 08/01/2022 16:29

Thank you so much @Yummypumpkin , that makes a lot of sense. I never knew this difference between the two so this was very helpful! Apologies, OP, for derailing, and all the best to you on your journey too Flowers

Westmeathtip · 08/01/2022 19:09

Small update, probably of no consequence

There has been something of a minor sea change in my BFs communication with me. He’s under the weather and hates being ill, and is much quieter. This has sent my anxiety through the roof. And it’s ridiculous- Much as I love him if we broke up I wouldn’t die or anything. And I realised it’s the uncertainty of it that I can’t stand. If he said “I’m mad busy, I’ll see you in a week, we’re fine” that would be enough but he hasn’t, although hasn’t done anything else concerning either, and I’m climbing the walls that he has ghosted me.

And yet funnily enough the only person who has ever ghosted me is my own mother. She rang today for the first time since before Christmas. I didn’t pick up.

OP posts:
BookFiend4Life · 08/01/2022 21:44

I see you're lowering your contact with her which is probably for the best. If you do want to respond to the weight/tummy comments I would turn it around in a way that she can't accuse you of being sensitive.
"You've brought up my tummy x number of times, you seem really fixated, is everything ok? Are you worrying about your own weight? You don't need to, I think you look great at any weight" I bet that would shut her right up. Any attempts to discuss your weight just reassure her SO sincerely that she looks fine and NO one thinks she looks fat. Too sincerely if you get my drift ;) it's great to set boundaries where you can but sometimes with families you inevitably have to interact with difficult people, it's great to perfect some lines that no jury could find fault with but that drive the other person mad, eventually they'll start to avoid you!

Westmeathtip · 08/01/2022 22:29

Which weight/tummy comments?

OP posts:
BookFiend4Life · 08/01/2022 22:46

So sorry OP, I posted to the wrong thread!! I'm very sorry your mom is so unsupported and unhelpful, I wish you the best.

BookFiend4Life · 08/01/2022 22:47

Unsupportive**

Westmeathtip · 08/01/2022 22:54

No problem - she DOES mention my weight funnily enough!

OP posts:
CheekyHobson · 09/01/2022 19:15

Then she does see you as separate and different.

You cannot be the same and always wrong, if she is always right.

I just want to clarify this apparent contradiction.

Narcissists struggle deeply with other people thinking differently to them.

As children, they were either shamed for their thoughts and desires and made to feel stupid and weak for who they were and what they wanted, or they were spoilt terribly – over-praised and given no or very few limits. Their caregivers tend to have been unpredictable, so they never knew what was 'right' or 'wrong', or their caregivers were deeply neglectful and just let them do whatever they wanted.

As a result, when they grow up, they build their ego and identity up around the idea that whatever they think, like or want is 'right' and 'good' and perfect.

This iseither as a compensatory reaction against their unfair childhood shaming and unpredictability, or as a growth of the idea that they have always been right and can/should have whatever they want. So there's a dual path to narcissism.

This leads to a black and white view of the world. When someone agrees with them, that person is 'like them' and therefore good. When someone disagrees with them, that person is 'not like them' and therefore bad. Narcissists are very rigid in their thinking, because rigidity provides a sense of safety. It's a way of looking at and being in the world that allows them to feel in control. They know what the rules are because they make the rules.

You might have heard that narcissists see their children as 'extensions of themselves'. What this means is that they expect their children to be just like they are – to think the same way, to like the same things, to want the same things. Like small versions of themselves. This is what is meant when we say 'Narcissists can't see others as separate and different'.

It might be more accurate to say 'Narcissists can't bear to see others they care about as separate and different'. This is because, as mentioned above, they have a deep ego need to see themselves as perfect and always right. So if someone they care about doesn't think the exact same way or want the exact same things, there must be something wrong with THAT person. Because the idea that something might be wrong with them triggers deep shame or anger and a sense of self-denial.

Sometimes this 'extension' works in an inverse way. Like, if a narcissist really admires people who are very musical, they might be attracted to you because you are a wonderful musician. They feel that your talent somehow 'rubs off' on them by association. They'll brag about your musical talents, hope (and hint) that you might write love songs for them, engage in the world of music as much as possible. However if you lose interest in music, or perhaps have an injury that prevents you playing any more, this will upset and even anger them. As they have come to feel possessive about your musical talent, they now feel you are denying an 'aspect of themself'.

So that's why when you do things differently to your mother, she reacts very badly. She wouldn't do things that way, so you, as an extension of herself, mustn't. If you do something differently, it might mean she was wrong about what she thought. And if she's wrong about this one thing, she might be wrong about other things. The world suddenly seems unpredictable and scary again. All of a sudden, the entire edifice of her ego is at risk of cracking and falling apart. So that's why she gets mad and flounces off.

It's also why it's effective when you can disagree with her in a loving way that maintains a connection with her. In her world, agreement is acceptance and disagreement is rejection. She tries to force you to agree with her because she feels like if you disagree with her, you'll reject her.

Westmeathtip · 09/01/2022 21:41

@CheekyHobson Thankyou - that’s illuminating. Some of it rings very true. She was incredibly spoilt and cosseted as a child, it’s a family joke. She was always very very special and survived where two older siblings died.
I don’t know if the rejection stuff fits though - in a way it’s the other way around - she rejects me if my world view/position doesn’t fit with her picture of What Is Right. After the blow up about my child’s ASD she didn’t speak to me for an entire year. Interestingly she kept my now ExH onside. Angry He facilitated their contact then, even though he did accept the diagnosis. That double betrayal was the beginning of the end of my marriage too.

I’m still sitting quietly and taking it all in. Head spinning stuff.

OP posts:
imayhavelostmymarbles · 09/01/2022 22:01

Oh my. You have just pinned my mother down too, to a T. Wow

itsgoodtobehome · 09/01/2022 22:04

Same here. This thread is truly eye opening.

CheekyHobson · 10/01/2022 00:59

I don’t know if the rejection stuff fits though - in a way it’s the other way around - she rejects me if my world view/position doesn’t fit with her picture of What Is Right. After the blow up about my child’s ASD she didn’t speak to me for an entire year. Interestingly she kept my now ExH onside. angry He facilitated their contact then, even though he did accept the diagnosis. That double betrayal was the beginning of the end of my marriage too.

No, you're right, she will reject for you for thinking differently to her, but it's two sides of the same coin. She'll reject you for being different to her, but deep down she doesn't want to reject you – she craves a connection that she's never really had or understood how to create – so her first strategy is to try threats, belittling, criticism, etc – all of which is designed to get you to change your opinion to hers, so that you will be the same as her, and then she can continue to love you and be loved by you.

Fundamentally she is deeply threatened by differences of opinion because she doesn't grasp that it's possible to love someone and want to be close with them, while disagreeing with them about something at the same time. She cannot hold these two contradictory ideas in her head at the same time.

This is an outworking of perfectionism. She sees herself as perfect (regardless of reality), so any difference from her must be 'imperfect', so can't be tolerated because tolerating it would mean that the whole ideal of perfection collapses. Perfection is absolute. You can't have any little flaws because then it's not perfect. So everything has to be be 'right' all the time. Exhausting, right?! I honestly feel quite sorry for narcissists because nothing is ever good enough for them. Fuck that for a way to live. Embracing imperfection is so much easier!

She was able to stay in contact with your ExH as he is not an extension of herself the same way you and her grandson are. Believe me, it's not because she cared about him or liked him better. He's purely the means to her end (which was staying in touch with her grandson, and by proxy, you).

Lottapianos · 10/01/2022 11:36

'I honestly feel quite sorry for narcissists because nothing is ever good enough for them'

Me too. My parents are narcissistic - they are very sad, scared people who don't really trust anyone else. They both have huge amounts of anger which they never learned how to process safely, so they are in denial about having those feelings at all. It's really very sad indeed. That's not to undermine the damage these people do, or to suggest that we should carry on being their emotional punch bags

MyFirstHypnosis · 10/01/2022 17:20

Wow here also.

Bollindger · 10/01/2022 17:34

There are two ways to deal with her.
One is the loo , you are with her and she starts , hang on mum I need the loo , sit there think be calm and do not BITE.
On the phone same thing interrupt her and leave the conversation.

Two is agree. it's so funny to do this.

I am worried about you dating X, Yeah me too mum.
Your working too much, and should be home, Yes mum, I do work too much, but it's is either work or the kids starve, it sure sucks.

To have an arguement she needs you to disagree... Remember that.

MyFirstHypnosis · 10/01/2022 17:46

"Your working too much, and should be home, Yes mum, I do work too much, but it's is either work or the kids starve, it sure sucks."

more extreme cases would be able to answer back on that one.

Lottapianos · 10/01/2022 18:15

'more extreme cases would be able to answer back on that one.'

That's so true! They really do have an answer for everything. I have seen my mother argue with people about how well or otherwise the other person is feeling that day, and how much sleep the other person got the night before 😱 she absolutely has to be right about EVERYTHING

MyFirstHypnosis · 10/01/2022 18:16

yep....

Yummypumpkin · 10/01/2022 18:26

There are some incredibly insightful and honest posts here.

VerveClique · 10/01/2022 19:29

This is a very good thread.

Irish Catholic families hey…

I often think of my DM as a caring aunt. That way my expectations of her towards me are a lot lower.

Also look at grieving a relationship whilst the other person is alive.

Some fantastic advice here. Mumsnetters Rock Grin

Westmeathtip · 10/01/2022 20:54

Disagreeing with mine isn’t as simple as absenting myself. She’s more subtle and clever than that. It’s about power and control too. She does a thing that has driven me mad forever, where she comes in and instead of sitting down, has to be busy (and therefore virtuous) and starts moving stuff about, adjusting things, picking up stuff, putting stuff away and tidying up. It’s like she has to touch EVERYTHING. I have tried saying to her “would you just sit there and not touch anything” and then she gets a massive gob on, but she wouldn’t say anything direct, it would be all “oh you do look so tired and grey these days. I brought XYZ for the kids’ tea because I thought they’d like something nice.”

See?

OP posts:
Westmeathtip · 10/01/2022 20:55

@VerveClique that’s interesting about thinking of her as an aunt. I have a zillion cousins (of course) and they all all all think she’s absolutely brilliant. And as an aunt she is. Angry

OP posts:
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