October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@KeeG8181 My mother was 26 when she had me. Had my older brother at 25...the way she goes on though, you would have thought she was 55!

Old Catholic Irish family is her background, she was bought up in the 50s and if you hadn't had at least 3 children by the age of 21 there was something wrong with you (she was one of the youngest of 9). She met my father in the January, and was pregnant to him and married by the December...however, he'd lied about his age when the met and was 5 years younger than her...he turned 20 the day after my older brother was born. I'm pretty sure my mother was his first serious girlfriend...he was obviously far too immature for it all, and hadn't actually wanted children anyway.

Mummy monkey was trying to be nice by making peace, getting involved (sorry, DRAGGED into the game) and inviting the Hag to Xmas in person - lunch or going to the lair. My reply to her kind email is below. I know where I get my over-developed kindness from.

No, we don’t want to do Christmas Eve, but thank you for offering. I know that’s less convenient for you, but it feels like the bullying wins out. Christmas Eve means 50% of our time away and together will be taken up with someone who is angry and miserable.

I don’t know why it needs to be so unpleasant.

I know you want to be kind by seeing her and inviting her, but this drama is completely unnecessary either by mentioning it on over a lunch or you popping round. I think you’re then dragged into the game and the drama will run and run. It’s very much appreciated by Mr Monkey and I that you want to help.

This is exactly what we had last year, if you remember, and we stopped asking because it dissolved into huge rows, spite or martyrdom. She ended up having a strop and spent Christmas on her own as she refused to come to mine and MM’s. We just rose above it.

Mr Monkey has a new rule of one further ask on anything. MM will do this on the 27th November. She has been invited already, she knows she’s welcome, it was all settled and now there’s some new game playing. Slave Son needs to stand up to her, but he won’t. He is saying go to Mummy Monkey’s, but we are not going to have a huge extended manipulated family drama on this.

She knows she’s welcome.

The season of (no) joy is not going to happen. I know it sounds tough, but MM and I have had nearly two years of games and drama and it has to stop. We had a terrible Christmas in 2019 with her. We are 100% agreed on this plan.

@noirchatsdeux it’s just MAD, isn’t it? Their fucked up childhoods visited on us. Awful.

@MrsBobDylan - holy shit, that's awful. I too used to keep diaries. I burned them all several years ago. I felt I didn't need to have evidence of what I knew was true. Writing it down as a child (I guess) was part of me processing it, almost like I couldn't believe any of it was happening, so writing it down somehow helped me.

But looking back at it was worse than watching the most harrowing documentary film. I don't know why I kept them for so long (50 years). I think I had to let go of it all hence the burning.

@soberfabulous - You don't have to open your house to your parents. Mind you, I'm being a total hypocrite here. My alcoholic brother turned up with his awful wife having invited themselves to stay at my house for a MONTH. I threw them out after two weeks and went NC. It was a hideous experience.

Hello everyone. I popped in here briefly a month or so ago but I'm usually just a lurker. I feel like I'm going mad though, and might just need to vent. I stupidly agreed to go and visit my parents a few weeks ago. Limited it to 2 nights, getting there late on a Friday and leaving first thing on Sunday, so as little time as I could. Went with my husband and son. It was a bloody disaster. I really tried to do a certain amount of grey rock and just keep things focused on the kids. First of all weird comments about how I looked whilst pregnant (I'm 8m), clearly they had both been scrutinising where I was and wasn't carrying weight. When I wasn't thrilled to hear this I got the usual "you're so sensitive, can't you even take a compliment". Sure I can, only this isn't a compliment is it? Not really. Anyway, it got worse and my mum ended up screaming at me in front of my son and 2 nephews over something I was helping her to do, but I didn't know how to do everything she needed. Seriously, it always completely ridiculous. She was angry that I didn't know how to do all of it, even though I sorted almost all of the rest for her. And it had to be done right then and there on a Saturday night with all the kids around, of course. My brother took his kids home immediately and we put our son to bed and just went to bed ourselves so we didnt have to sit with them. She tried to smooth it over afterwards, no apology of course - apparently the problem wasn't that she'd just screamed at me in front of my son for no reason whatsoever, as though I was a 10yr old. No, the problem as she saw it was that she's no good with technology and she thought my brother was going to do it for her . When I tried to say no, that's absolutely not the problem my dad jumped in and told me not to start. So upstairs I went. I didn't speak to them for 2wks afterwards - even on my birthday - it was so calm, it was truly great. Now I'm determined to keep calls to maximum once per week but ideally less. I'm also determined that when my baby is born in a couple of weeks they will be told they won't be allowed to visit until next year. I'm just so tired of all this nonsense. It's utterly ridiculous. And the saddest part is that what happened on that visit is just standard, par for the course. I wasn't surprised it happened at all. Anyway, clearly mum has realised that things have changed and she's starting to ramp up the messages and calls that I don't answer. I leave her on read 9/10, and when I do respond I wait till late at night and just say something generic and tell her we will speak at the weekend. I never respond again, only once that's my new rule. I'm just sad it's come to this and a bit scared of what will happen next. I think it's all going to come to a head around the birth of my daughter. I just want some peace. The further I get from an actual incident, the harder I find it is to keep my boundaries in place. Its almost like the longer it's been the less "right" I feel I have to be angry. Is that normal?

@Eatingjumper - do you want to maintain any kind of contact with them? If so, why? Also, what are you scared of? (You say you're scared of what's going to happen. What do you mean by that?)

You're a grown up with your own family. You don't have to maintain a relationship with anyone if you don't want to. And that includes family.

@sicario I supposed I'm scared of the inevitable arguments, that I will have to justify what I am doing. I know that my desire to take time out from this relationship isn't just about a stupid argument 2wks ago (or the one 2wks before that, etc etc), it's about years of this shit. Decades of negative comments, alcoholism, shouting, anger, even some basic neglect. But I know they won't see it that way. Having read on here and some other forums like out of the fog, and also working with a therapist who is great I logically know that I don't have to justify anything, I don't have to even say anything....trouble is I just don't think I'm there yet. I still feel overwhelming obligation and guilt. I feel like having kids complicates things. Maybe it should make it more simple, but I'm just not there yet.

@Eatingjumper it’s about protecting the children first. No disrespect to you I lived with my parents and two children whilst we sold our house and relocated near them. They were like this daily. I tried withdrawing to our rooms. I tried speaking to them nicely and stating this wasn’t accepting and out the lines trotted about their house their rules how controlling I was etc so believe me I’ve been there.

You won’t ever ‘win’ or get them to be reasonable or normal or consider your view point ever. End of. Your brother took his children and left. Next time you do the same.

I once went to stay with exes parents with my eldest and I was pregnant and ill with the pregnancy I woke up one morning to my then husbands dad assaulting him in front of my daughter who was screaming - fil had pinned him up against a wall by the neck and ex was covered in marks. I silently took daughter who was screaming and crying and I packed all our things and put her and the dog and our stuff in the car. I sat in the car meanwhile the argument from hell started and they locked then husband in the house, took car keys and his wallet so he couldn’t leave as ‘they needed to resolve it’ after us sitting in the car for 4 hours he was ‘released as long as I and child went for lunch’ it was awful and I never should of agreed. Realistically I should have ended our marriage the minute that ex even suggested ‘lunch’ at the end of a lunch where I didn’t speak fil said ‘love you we will come and visit in a few weeks see you very soon ‘ I said ‘I will see you when I see you’ I was berated by my husband and fil who he had ‘calmed down’ kicked off and ex told me that he was only being kind and now look what I had done. We had a 6 hour drive and he berated me all the way home. I refused to see them - they visited once when son was born against my better judgement and were rude and vile to me calling me a stick up bitch to my face. The next time they visited they assaulted ex again and I again left the house and I never ever saw them again. Every single time it destroyed me and worse it traumatised eldest. It was vile. I stood up to them and the reality was husband took their side showed his true colours and eventually took our family money to try to control me (controlled by his parents who had also instructed a solicitor for him ) and a divorce happened. He would not stand up for me. My parents are equally abusive.

My daughter had years of counselling and 7 years later she still gets upset - it’s trauma.

I want my parents to love me - I’m low really really really ill with tonsillitis and very very very lonely really lonely but I won’t ever ever ever put my children in harms way ever ever ever ever again.

Now you. You are a grown woman pregnant and she screams at you and won’t apologise. Would you accept it in the workplace? No - it will never ever ever get better.

Don’t ever visit again. If you must - and I strongly advise not meet them somewhere neutral eg a pub the minute she is rude or raises her voice leave - don’t reward bad behaviour by staying but I strongly advise against it - nc is the only way it’s awful and sad but it’s the only way

I agree, when they start on your kids or treat you badly in front of your kids, enough is enough. I had been LC for years but lockdown changed that, the assassin started to ring for a chat weekly!

There’s lots of talk of going NC on these threads but having that conversation is scary because you’ve been conditioned from your childhood that the consequences of speaking up for yourself are awful. You normalise their behaviour because it’s your family.

So I thought I’d share how I actually had that big conversation with the assassin. I wrote myself a script for what I wanted to say. It listed all of the behaviours that are toxic and recent examples. I also included some stock phrases like “I am not the problem here”, “no, it’s not okay to speak to me like that”, “do you hear yourself when you say things like that”, “that’s toxic behaviour and not okay”.

Know that it will be horrible and there will be no Oprah Winfrey style mea culpa from your toxic one. But that’s not the point. The point is you are standing up for yourself. Your are saying a big fat NO.

I felt so emotional that day but the next day I woke up feeling free….

@IAAP that's awful, I'm glad you were able to say no more to it. Thank you for sharing. Just to clarify, my brother left because he lives a mile down the road, whereas we were staying for the weekend as we live about a 4hr drive away. But to be honest, I get the point you are making and it still stands. I think I am at the stage where I kind of know, logically, that NC is going to be the only way to get any kind of peace, but I guess I haven't accepted it yet. And I still have this block in my mind of how to actually do it. I think that's the FOG saying "but it's your family, and you can't do that to family". But I keep coming back to the thought that THEY have no problem treating me how they like, and aren't I their family too? My husband has suggested that we invite them to meet our daughter for a very brief visit just before Christmas, but I think its too soon, and I also think it sends the message that everything is okay. Maybe I'm just being petty, but it doesn't feel that way. I feel like I need at least till the next year without them stressing me out. And to be honest they will probably find a way to do that without visiting anyway.

@Sicario Jesus H Christ. These stories of neglect are awful. And there’s nowhere to take them at the time, is there?

@Eatingjumper abusing you in front of your kids. Abusers have no off button and NO sense of what’s appropriate. You WILL get to a place of nO FOG, it’s hard work to get there because of the games and society’s expectations of family life. Yes, don’t buy into the perfect family Xmas. Put yourself first. See them next year if you want to. You don’t need it. Have the time yoy want.

@IAAP awful, awful, AWFUL. On BOTH sides having abuse. I am so glad that you’ve escaped and your daughter got the support she needed and are NC with the TOASTs now. It’s hard work, but worth it.

I’m having a shit day. I keep flipping back and forth from thinking we should talk to the fucking Hag about Xmas, agreeing with my mum about ‘being kind’ (although she gets our point of view, but feels sorry for disabled Slave Son) and just get the game stopped.

MM has said Xmas is on my terms and keeps saying I shouldn’t get stressed about it. I think that’s supposed to reassure me. God, men are dim sometimes.

I’m going to bring forward his ‘ask’ to tonight and then it’s his responsibility and it’s done and dusted.

I need to be far harder. I’m not going to capitulate on her coming than longer than what’s been agreed - one night. I’m sick of the way she’s in my head. Need to chase up counselling and reinforce barriers. Sorry for going on and on and on about it. She’s a nasty fucked up bit of work.

@Eatingjumper I sometimes lurk on this thread and your post really resonated with me. My DP can be quite similar.

I tried to keep things normal and keep DM in the loop when I was in labour with DS and she repaid me by making a 200 mile trip so she could be "just passing" the hospital when I was in labour and tried her luck getting into the operating theatre; I'd also been messaged, texted and called multiple times in the run up to going into hospital so ended up telling them I couldn't use my phone in hospital.

With DD we actually lied about the due date so I got a bit of peace in the run up. We did obviously tell DP when she was born. They visited in hospital at our invitation which ended up being at the same time as I was in the process of being discharged (not ideal but it went on for ages), then without asking tried to take DS in their car instead of letting us have our first trip as a family. DM was also flouncing around the hospital clearly determined to be the centre of attention.

Anyway I had lost a lot of blood while giving birth then got told I had to go into hospital urgently the next day as I had high blood pressure. At the same time, my DM was starting an onslaught of messages, phone calls and texts. So I said I was really ill with HBP and just needed some quiet but would be in touch.

This lasted about a day before I started getting messages like "I know you said not to get in touch.." and then a stupid reason why they had to get in touch, my DF got told to call, and basically they just wouldn't fucking leave me in peace even at the risk of making my health worse.

They also went around the rest of the family saying I was overreacting, HPB runs in the family so I should just get on with it, and blaming me for them not seeing DD enough - this was still within days of me having a really traumatic birth. And when I did call them they immediately tried to invite themselves over, I said no.

To make matters worse DM asked me to log in to her e-mail (she's not very technical and I think had had a scam e-mail saying if she didn't log in her account would be deleted), and she'd had the brass neck to e-mail a relative abroad asking her to pray for me.

My DP are both elderly now and DF is housebound, DM behaves really badly and then complains I don't go and see them enough.

So basically, try and manage your news and don't take any nonsense, put yourself first. And don't tell them anything until you're ready.

MM hold the line don’t bring forward the discussion. Stick to the plan.

I’ve been very ill and awaiting a highly
Likely positive PCR. I took the Toasts out of my will
Months ago and removed them from the children’s emergency contact lists. Even though they are a less than 5 min drive from their schools.

I’m not holding my nerve well and I want to ask my friends to ring them and tell them how ill I am. Stupid as their response during my miscarriage and haemorrhage was to pack up and down complaining about their ‘lack of support’ …… from hospital staff and lack of facilities for them at the hospital and then they buggered off.

I suppose given when both my children are ill
I don’t leave their bloody bedside I just want that. Instead if a friend tells them I’m ill they will berate me that I didn’t tell them or ask what they are supposed to do and that they didn’t know and did nothing.

Pretty shit but I still want my mom to cuddle me - stupid eh!? Kids fighting like cat and dog on steroids this morning can’t bloody cope with either of them.

@monkeyfrommanchester I get this feeling too, in an ideal world we could just be harder and say enough! Stop everything and forever walk away. I get it's added hard for you as it's your partners mum so there's a certain amount that has to come from him. I hope you get the Christmas you want, and the hag decides to cut off her own nose to spite her face. Seems like the best outcome all round!

@haribomuncher how awful. Something about babies arriving just seem to make them even worse. I haven't lied about my due date, but have evaded the question and tried to be vague to buy me some time. They live about 4hrs away and wouldn't stop by at all as it would be way too inconvenient for them (and they'd never do anything inconvenient for themselves), which is a blessing. My mother is exactly the same as you describe yours. I'm not allowed to have any emotional breakdowns but she absolutely loves to use my problems to ring round every friend and relative she can think of to get sympathy for herself. I had 2 miscarriages before my son was born and it nearly broke me. When I tried to tell her this she cut me off and told me "yes, yes, I know. We're devastated too, it was our grandchildren". Then proceeded to tell every living human in her contact book, but couldn't allow me to talk about it whatsoever. Oh actually, she did once. She sighed and told me I was so sensitive and really take these things to heart. I no longer share anything with her, I've learnt over the past few months that information is just used as a weapon in some way. I always regret it. It's quite amazing to me that I never saw that before. In fact, it hadn't occurred to me that I didn't have to tell them everything! At 37!

Thank you for your guide on how you went NC. I think I might have a little go at writing a letter or something just to see how it makes me feel. Not to use or send, just for me.

@HariboMuncher WHERE DO THEY GET OFF? That’s a terrible invasion of a special time for you and your partner and new baby. Jesus, re the illness after the birth and the flouncing around. Over-reacting to high blood pressure after losing a lot of blood? Your DM qualified as a midwife?!? Definitely holding my nerve on Hag not coming for one more night at Xmas IF she stops the martyr game and just comes.

She’s not invited to Sunday lunch with my mum as I can just do without the face to face with her. Plus I’m aiming for just FIVE occasions of seeing her this year - despite her being 10 minutes walk away. Good friend thinks it’s hilarious that I count this as I’m shit with numbers.

Partner is doing much better at LC and not playing the game with her - he’s had 50 years of indoctrination so it’s hard. I’m so glad that he sees it. So many partners are so used to it / brainwashed that women just walk away leaving their partners to the emotional leeches that are their mothers. If MM hadn’t seen it and had the penny drop in 2020 - 2021, I would have packed my bag last year which is EXACTLY what the fucking toxic bitch would have wanted. I HATE her.

@IAAP It’s push / pull, isn’t it? Logically you know they are terrible, but emotionally it’s hard to implement NC as you want a positive relationship and are striving for it. I hope your PCR is negative. Can you get a call in with your counsellor? We are here for you. Take care. Self-care, do one kind thing for yourself. Xxxx

@HariboMuncher @IAAP I wonder if the baby thing is about yet more control. I read somewhere that narcs love babies, but can’t cope when children get minds of their own. Plus they pick and choose favourites again. They are HIDEOUS people.

@IAAP Learning to not repeatedly go to a dry well for water is hard. Every time you go, you hope that by some miracle they will have changed and give you the support you are looking for - and it never happens.

32 years ago I realised my mother was utterly incapable of giving me any kind of emotional support...but has that stopped me still trying? Of course not, I did just recently - not only did she completely downplay my problems, she then turned it all around to be about her, and ended up with blaming me yet again for my father leaving her.

Don't get your friends to try and make them care, it won't work. Vent on here instead.

The Fucking witch - final Friday update.

Mr Monkey rings the lair.

Cue moaning.

Then MM takes charge.

I’ll take you to the hairdressers on the 27th and then we can go out for lunch.

No, no, it’s alright. You go home to Monkey*.

Are you sure?

You go home to Monkey, it’s alright.

It’s just a pub lunch, nothing fancy.

I’ve got nothing to wear.

It’s just a pub lunch.

Oh, alright then.

Christmas?

No don’t worry, it’s alright, forget about me.**

OK. That’s decided.

You don’t need to get me any presents.

OK, no problem.

No going back. Hurrah.

*showing her true colours and what this has ALWAYS been about.

** Me: Yep, we’ll do that, don’t you worry.

Done and fucking dusted. Fuck off.

AIRPUNCH. No more guilt. The Hag has spoken.

@noirchatsdeux fascinated to hear how YOU are responsible for your dad leaving her. Total shifting the responsibilities. Best one yet.

@Eatingjumper Yeah, I've also learned not to tell them very much. It's all just used as gossip fodder or used against me later. She directly asked me if I still went running recently and I let slip I'd joined a gym, so I guess this will turn into me neglecting her to do hobbies.

I had a miscarriage in between DS and DD. DM informed me that "life's a bitch" when we visited the same day (they were looking after DS). That done, she then demanded DH admire the joinery work she'd had done on her kitchen.

@MonkeyfromManchester I think so. She's already picked DS out as her favourite and once made a comment about DD's weight (she used to obsess about her daughters' weights). I once mentioned we'd started a savings account for DD that she'd get access to when she was 18 and got told she'd spend it all on her boyfriend!

It's been very cathartic to join this thread!

@MonkeyFromManchester - your Christmas just got 1000% more fun and relaxed, by the sound of it. Congratulations. Seems like an easy thing to say but takes a lot to do.

I'm on my own this year. Feel the weight of social expectation to be sad about it, but tbh, I'm rather looking forward to it. Five days in a row off work. Nobody's weird uncommunicated schedule to adhere to, no silent treatment or sulking, no getting kicked out at exactly 5pm. Duvet, cat, decorations, cheesy films and music, and only the good bits of the Christmas dinner, for one. Maybe next year I'll get a boy/girlfriend or volunteer or something, but for now this feels right.

@MonkeyfromManchester I apologise in advance, it's a long one!

I started dating the 1st husband when I was 18...being Catholic, my mother immediately banned him from even going upstairs in the family home, I wasn't allowed to go on holiday with him, even be away with anyone overnight...obviously it didn't stop us from having sex, but it did make me want to get away from my parents asap. I was then told if I left to live with him (the only way I could have afforded to leave home) they'd disown me. Being very young and very stupid, and still wanting a family, I got engaged and we got married a month after I turned 21.

At the start of that year my father got offered a very good job working 200 miles away .... he was unemployed and they were at risk of losing the house, so of course he took the job. My mother took over the wedding planning totally - doing her usual showing off to her family, everything she chose was the most expensive in the town we were living in. Myself and the fiance had just bought a house so there was no way we could afford a fancy wedding ourselves, so my parents were paying for it. My mother was a SAHM and had been for 20 years at that point.

Anyway, long story short, my father met OW when he was working away, and 3 days after my wedding left my mother for her. I came back from honeymoon to WW3. That was the first time my mother said that by getting married at 21 I'd "made my father feel old" and that's why he'd had the affair...since then I've heard it many times...sometimes she varies it by saying "if we hadn't had to pay for your wedding he wouldn't have taken the job working away, wouldn't have met OW and had the affair and left..." So it's always my fault.

My mother turned 80 this year. This all happened 32 years ago. In my last phone call with her she once again blamed him leaving on me.

@TirisfalPumpkin I've spent 7 Christmases on my own...I know what you mean about the weight of social expectation - I've been made to feel like a total loser in the past for not having family/friends to spend it with. It's been bloody hard at times.

The great thing about being 53 is that I don't really care much anymore about other people's opinions. It's one fucking day in the end. Your day sounds like just like mine (but I have two cats) and I actually prefer being on my own now! Nobody making you do anything you don't want to - best Christmas gift to yourself ever!

I am genuinely astonished at how similar these narcs are.

If I ruled the world, I would deposit them all on a barren island for the rest of their days.

None of them should be around the lovely folk on this thread.

I am working with my counsellor on the feelings of fear and guilt. I know I will never see or speak to Bogeymum ever again but I want her out of my head too.

I never thought I would leave. Honestly, if I can cut the Bogeymum out like the putrid growth she is, you can too.