October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Hello all, I last posted back, well, probably in the autumn and you all were super lovely and supportive. Thank you! 🙏🏼

Long story short, I am NC with my mum (my only surviving biological family, besides my two lovely dc) because she married a man who she knew had sexually abused his daughters. He told her on their first date years ago. She was fine with it and spent the next 15 years hiding this information including to allow him access to my children. I don’t think they were ever abused but I will never really know for sure. In recent pre-COVID years, they have become quite keen members of a ‘family’ naturist resort where children are required to also be naked in public areas (except in the pool if not yet potty trained). It’s obvious he continues to offend, but I can’t prove it because ‘naturism’ even for convicted child sex offenders is apparently not illegal (his offences were outside the UK in his home country).

It’s only been recently when people have asked questions about my own childhood when I’ve been like 🥺. I used to think I had a relatively normal childhood but I was also sexually abused (totally didn’t realise that was a weird thing til I was an adult). I also often didn’t go to school. My mum literally couldn’t be bothered to get me up to go to school. But the time I was 10, she just started leaving me home asleep and she’d get up and go to work and I’d wake up at like 10am alone and confused and she wouldn’t be back til like 6pm. I missed an entire year of school just being at home because she couldn’t be bothered to take me. We were well off generally so I went to private school and because of that I think people just thought I’d changed schools. 🤷🏻‍♀️ No one ever came asking where I was for a whole year while I was at home cooking all my meals and watching Mtv all day! Before that, when she still did get me up for school, I used to eat half a punnet of ice cream every day for breakfast. Literally I’d wake up in the morning to her feeding ice cream into my mouth (I was 9/10). That’s all I ever had for breakfast for a couple years. It’s only as an adult that I’ve realised how fucking weird all of this is! My oldest is nearly that same age as the not going to school/ice cream for breakfast era and I cannot imagine her life that way.

My mum and I are now NC because I discovered her partner’s history of sexual abuse.

That is beyond the comprehension of most sane people, to knowingly marry a man who'd abused his own daughters, by his own admission. and then not protect her granddaughters. The school stuff is weird but marrying a sex offender, good lord, I am not surprised you're NC with her.

Just a little shout out to all of us on mother's day who have survived abusive mothers. I have no doubt that there will be abusive mothers up and down the country who are feeling hard done by today because their daughters haven't rolled out the red carpet.

I did think about sending flowers (for about a minute last week) then reminded myself it's just the FOG creeping in.

Today I am so grateful that I have a wonderful relationship with my daughters. Flowers, phone calls, much laughter and long-distance hugs and kisses. I am also grateful for this thread and all the support from those who understand why going NC is the only way out of an abusive relationship.

Solidarity to all!

Same back @sicario

Yupp, my mother amongst them. No way was I ever sending her a card. She and my father decided not to communicate with me.

It hurts, but no way was i going to send a card to somebody who has a policy of stonewalling me and giving me the silent treatment (it varies between the two, silent treatment atm)

They decided that they are entitled to label me paranoid, decided that they did nothing wrong glossing over it, they decided that the real offense was my hurt reaction to them glossing over decades of calling me paranoid. She has drawn the whole family and wider extended family in with her smear campaign. They decided that my trying to have a conversation when they'd decided there wouldn't be a conversation was ''abusive''. She will talk about me but not to me. And yet, she ''hates what I've done to the family''. My enmeshed golden child brother and my foot soldier father will be nodding and sympathising with her suffering.

I live in the UK, my mother lives in my home country of Australia. Mother's Day is on a different date there...I ignore both.

Hi,

It’s my first time posting on this thread so I hope that’s ok

I started a thread a while ago which might help explain my situation.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4474327-Parents-deny-favouritism

I try not to dwell on things to protect myself. But last week I asked my parents to look after DC for an hour at most because I got an emergency appointment at the Dentist.

They do 3 days childcare for DSis child. And so they said they weren’t impressed with me putting on them for the dentist appointment because don’t they deserve a days break?!

So it brought the feeling back up and even though deep down I know that they are in the wrong, it still makes me feel so worthless. Just don’t know how to move on from keep thinking about it and letting it bother me. It probably seems really petty of me but it does upset me.

Hi all. I’m coming to post on here because I am so pissed off with my mother. I have read around here for years and generally do not let the parents bother me too much I am NC with my awful father and so is my Dsis. I’m pissed off though

My Dsis had a baby last month and as with all of her new DGC, the older ones just get completely forgotten. My older children have just become background objects which we are all used to by now. Dsis was unwell after baby but is fine now. DM was OBSESSED with this situation of my Dsis and baby when they were in hospital to the point where I had to step in and ask DM to leave Dsis alone for a few days.

I was trapped into having to take care of DM last year after an op by her lying to social services that she had help at home (me) and her lying to me that they were ‘looking into sending help round soon’. Me who worked full time and has kids to take care of, but I did my duty and did it graciously.

she then started trying to trap me into committing to it longer term, but as I am aware she has some kind of heightened psychological addition to medical conditions, I was able to see what she was playing at and then I (luckily) contracted Covid so could escape. She is fine

Despite having an op to improve her mobility she’s still dramatically limping around on a pair of crutches she doesn’t need, purposefully smashing them on my brand new car EVERY time she gets in it

Well it was Mother’s Day recently and I let her know in advance that we are all unwell and not visiting. DD2 has been sick for 2 weeks and I for one week. I am on steroids and antibiotics

She is texting my sister daily on our group asking about her and baby (who are fine) but not once about DD and I. Seemingly she has forgotten or does not care

So we ate the box of chocolates I got her for Mother’s Day

Ha ha, good for you, i bought myself a huge o4chid in a bottle, like a ship. Years qgo i would have given it to her.

You are too good. I work ft qnd have teens but i will never care for that woman who has not even allowed me to have a reaction to the names she has called me. My reaction hurts her. So when th3 time comes, my brother is on his own.

bump
I hate when this slips out of my threads i'm on.

I have been lurking in the stately homes threads on-and-off for ages and would just like to extend thanks and to you all.

Hello all, lovely to see everyone (despite our not at all lovely toxic families)

I’m proud of myself for four months of not seeing the Hag (toxic mother in law) after years of low level shit from her and then full blown vileness in 2020 and 2021.

I dodged the Mr Monkey family lunch recently as it would have featured her. Didn’t go.

What I’m not dodging is MM’s journey into therapy - which I’m so glad he’s finally having - it is SO upsetting.

I’m glad he’s sharing some of the exercises he’s doing with his therapist (who’s brill) but hearing that his anxiety is actually sadness is so upsetting - for him and for me.

Hearing that the person you love is 5 most days (scale of 10) is so awful. Even on a day where we do fab things that’s where he is. I know it will get better.

But I want to smash the Fucking Hag’s face in for damaging him so much.

The latest is - he’s backed away so much is - “I was a good mother”. Ffs. She was violent and emotionally abusive.

I fucking hate her.

But I’m so glad I’m now NC and MM is LC. SO pleased he’s on a journey with therapy which will really help him.

God, these toxic twats. AWFUL people.

I have been exchanging letters with "mother" for some months. In every one I have included what she said to me "If you had been a proper mother then I would have a better relationship with my grandchildren". This was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and I got great advice here, was posting last October. I didn't feel I could tell her to Fuck off and Die as she would move heaven and earth to take revenge on me, so I blocked her on the phone but communicated by letter.

In my letters I have encouraged her to get therapy as I understand it is difficult for her to understand how I feel, but for there to be any relationship I need her to take responsibility. (I knew the chances she would do this were extremely low). I have also encouraged her to show my letters to people who can be objective and help her.

My last letter included a Mother's Day gift and this sentence "Sending me to Coventry for weeks on end, or lashing out with a horrific statement designed to hurt as deeply as possible, is not an appropriate way to deal with displeasure. I now know that I am better than this, I do not deserve to be treated this way, and I will not accept being treated this way. But if you gain an insight into yourself then there can be a way forward."

Well she didn't like this!!! Bridge burning letter received -

"Escaping.
Please once & for all stop lying to yourself, me & everyone else.
You know I never mentioned the word Mother. I said “It was the way they were reared” [Her sister*] was a witness to exactly what I said."

Deliberate misunderstandings through the letter (she has given me the silent treatment for many years, but is pretending my Coventry comment relates to the fact that she took 6 weeks to reply to a previous letter), ending with

"I don’t mean to punish you when I take so long to reply to your Epistles. I can’t eat or sleep - no longer has one Epistle come in reprimanding me like a child, when another comes. I just can’t take any more, so please leave me alone, I’ve had it." **

Funny thing, she's always commented about me having such a good memory. And many people, including my mother-in-law, have said I'm the most honest person they know. Sister is over 90 and has dementia and when she gave me a flying monkey call last August she couldn't remember what happened. * 4 letters + 1 WhatsApp since August, so she is hardly being bombarded.

Well I held my line that there would be no relationship without her taking responsibility. I can truthfully hold my head up high. It does hurt though, even though I know I'll get over it. I know she is a lying bitch as does my husband and my children.

Today I smashed a clock she gave me. It was nice but it reminded me of her so I took a hammer to it. I know I could have given it away but I felt it was full of poison. I've a long way to go but that action did me good. I'm exhausted today but looking forward to seeing my therapist next week, it will be an interesting session.
Apologies for the length of this post, bit emotional today x

@MonkeyfromManchester - that's awful to hear and so saddening. I don't know about Mr M, but the older I get the more incredulous I feel about my mother's abusive ways. It just beggars belief. How could anyone do that to their own child? There's no fucking excuse - except there always is, isn't there? But that's not good enough.

The damage is done and we have every right to be really fucking angry. Really brave of Mr M to be engaging with therapy. It can be a fearful road to tread but a good therapist is a bloody godsend.

Hope you are rocking the solidarity and taking good care of your own needs. The self care is really important.

Thanks @Sicario no, he does feel incredulous, too. He realises it wasn’t normal but sometimes - much less frequently - says other people had it worse. That’s totally her number on him. The whimpering I was a good mother makes me sick to my stomach.

Recently she’s rolled out two classics. Last Friday’s was moaning about getting her hair done for her booster jab on the Tuesday. She’d tried to get an appointment on the Friday and couldn’t. So she calls later on in the day and tells Mr Monkey this. There is a very, VERY clear unspoken expectation that he drop everything and take her on Saturday morning. He took the hint and then said “Monkey and I are going out tomorrow afternoon to the theatre and then out for lunch”. He didn’t offer to take her in the morning. There was a sniff.

It’s like she CAN’T believe that people don’t drop everything for her. The associated martyrdom with everything drives me to distraction “I don’t want to bother anyone”. THEN FUCKING SORT IT OUT YOURSELF.

Subsequently, this week he’s had up to FIVE phone calls a day about her fucking heating - there’s a fault as it’s as hot as Hades in her lair (apt) - which he’s dealing with via the housing association.

On Tuesday he’d got home from work and headed to the loo and his phone starts ringing. I used to pick up - I don’t now. Then as there is no answer, Slave Brother then rings on her instruction. Slave Brother is 60 something and just does her bidding. Totally brainwashed. It’s no emergency, it’s just about the repair.

Yesterday (Friday), Mr Monkey was working from home and received a mere three calls about her many woes. The classic was a medical appointment which falls on a day when we are on holiday in a couple of weeks.
Mr Monkey “I’ll have to rearrange that for you as we’re in Paris”

Hag “but it’s a medical appointment.”

MM “it’s a podiatry appointment and I can easily rearrange it”

Hag repeats it’s a medical appointment as if her saying that will lead to MM cancelling a holiday.

He doesn’t make her day by saying “oh yes, of course, you are Queen of the Fucking Universe and silly us for thinking you weren’t. Monkey’s on the phone right now to Lastminute.com cancelling it” so then it’s spite mode.

“So, who’s going”
“Me and Monkey”
“Not mummy monkey as well?”

This particular bit of bullshit is about a weekend where we took my mum to Wales for her BIRTHDAY last summer.

It evoked a lot of jealousy as does other episodes of us spending the weekends at my mum’s. As well as the jealousy is the disbelief that we wouldn’t want to bring the Hag along. MM remembers childhood holidays as utterly miserable. No surprise there.

I can’t wait for Mr Monkey to tell her that we’re heading for my mum’s for Easter.

The Hag is pure evil.

Oh the other classic bit of Hag Think after Mr Monkey hadn’t said oh yes, cancelling our holiday so you can get your diabetic hooves looked at.

“What are you going to Paris for?”
“Because it’s the most beautiful city in the world”
“It’s not my idea of a holiday”

NO ONE FUCKING ASKED FOR YOUR (TOXIC) OPINION. FUCK OFF.

I just watched a video about matching people's energies in relationships.

That helped me. I knew i was protecting myself by not initiating contact, but they initiate no contact either. This could go on forever but it's not my fault. i'm just matching their energy to protect myself from more judgement and rejection.

@Escapingafter50years your experience sounds familiar.
It is my mother's truth that I hurt HER asking her to stop labelling me paranoid, sensitive, emotional. She martyred up and sent my Dad over to reprimand me. So there is just this default core belief in my family that she cannot hurt me, only i can hurt her! She gave me the silent treatment when i wouldn't back down and say sorry (for challenging her i guess, although, I couldn't have said that!). Then she tried to summons me back to heal to play the part of daughter but still stonewall me on the issue of why my father was in and out of psychiatric hospitals in my teens (with paranoia) and yet I AM THE ONE WHO HAS emerged in the family narrative with the label paranoid. I am just expected to accept that, quietly. They fact that I have an angry response to having ''paranoid'' projected on to me for 35+ years is the only thing they can focus on. I ought to have had no emotional response at all to being labelled paranoid, having it glossed over, I ought to have accepted the silent treatments and the stonewalling and i shouldn't have tried to have conversations with them (that's ''abusive'')

I do agree now though, I wish I'd never tried to communicate with them. I didn't understand how fully committed they were to not hearing me back then. I thought there was a chance they might hear me.

I kind of hate her but I also feel sorry for her. She didn't work, so all she's got to show for her life is a co-dependent h who does what she says and thinks what he's told to think and a daughter who just cannot take any more projections and defensiveness. Her two children aren't speaking because it just hurts that my brother could have tried to get through to her but he didn't of course. He just joined in when they were talking about me but not to me.

So, from now on I'll be matching their energies. They don't care they hurt me. Right. They don't want to talk about it. Right. Their pain is valid and real. Right. They can consider themselves victims of me. Right. They can give me the silent treatment. Right.

I’ve been going to therapy and finished around a month ago. I had a 6 week course which was funded through a charity, I have the option to go back for another 6 weeks though need to wait a couple of months if I was to take up this option.

The therapist was helpful and seemed to understand where I was coming from. She seemed knowledgeable and some tasks were quite challenging. Overall I found it helpful.

However, at the end of my block she suggested that I forgive the people who have hurt me in order that I can move on or be at peace myself. I get the theory here, holding on to it is hurting me, they don’t care. The two main culprits have now “reinvented” themselves. One claiming to have become a better person and the other blaming their behaviour on the circumstances they were in at the time. They weren’t in these circumstances a few years ago when they pulled out another toxic behaviour because they weren’t getting their own way, but we’ll set that aside.

I don’t want to forgive them. Yes, I do want to move on for me or be more at peace but with these people, I let them away with shit for years, I kept giving them another chance and they kept hurting me. Holding them accountable and reminding myself how horrible they are protects me now, so I’m not sucked in again. It wasn’t one incident, it wasn’t 2, it wasn’t even 3.

Writing down a timeline of things that have happened in my life spanned pages and I kept going back to it when I remembers more and slotting them in. It shows they repeatedly treated me like shit and used me as the black sheep to pin all their crap on. I don’t think they get to be forgiven. While I appreciate the perspective that this may bring me peace, I just don’t see how I can do this and I’m not convinced it would be the right thing. I have chosen to be LC with both and I keep them at arms length, though I still need to protect myself, and keeping this shit at the front of my mind helps with my boundaries. Feeling this way doesn’t make me happy but I can’t change what they did or how they behaved, I don’t think I can accept it to the point that I can say it’s ok, it’s done now. That’s not how I feel about it.

Just needed to get this out of my head and down here. If anyone has any thoughts of experience of this please feel free to chime in. This has been spinning round my head for weeks and just needed it down.

Sounds like your therapist was fast forwarding you through a few stages there. I think FIRST I looked at forgiving myself for not seeing the dynamic soon. I forgive myself for not having stood up for myself earlier. Still processing that much......... and that's after 18 months of therapy (last session end of 2021)

Don't feel any pressure to forgive. I know from experience with my x, not my parents, that I was only able to let it go when I had recovered sufficiently that none of it mattered any more and then I could let it go, rather than try to cough up forgiveness. It was never like forgiveness, it was just like ''this doesn't matter any more''.

I cannot just forgive my parents when they are still standing in judgment of my ''behaviour''. It's more complicated. They want to summons me to play the part of daughter but feel so entitled to deny me any voice in the family. It's like ''Respect our right to define you''.
And their definition of me is not good.

I'm just not ready to wipe the slate clean when nothing has changed.

My therapist got me in to self-compassion and the practice of self-compassion would allow you to not feel forgiveness. It would I think tell you that you're not alone feeling this way and that it is very difficult. You're not failing to forgive. It's ok to feel how you feel right now. It's a predictable normal response to what's happened to you.
I find self-compassion more soothing than any trite instruction to forgive. Maybe one day I'll get to a point where I really feel it doesn't matter any more but right now it does still matter.

Protecting yourself is a good priority.

and actually I'd say that that is the one switch i made in therapy. I went in there initially determined to be heard, determined to ''make them see'' and determined to FIX things.

And I achieved none of that! Of course! But over 18 months I just switched my focus to protecting myself.

It's still hard accepting this shit situation some days though.

Forgiveness may or may not come to you, it may come for 5 minutes and then disappear. It's down to you and no one else.

I have forgiven my dad. I feel at peace around certain events. It's a nice feeling. I don't get brought to tears anymore when I think about him. I even make him have a coffee with me sometimes. It's calm.

My mum, I'm not there yet. Sometimes I'm still so angry at her. Her fucked up family dynamics that she played out on me. Other times I feel a bit of understanding, she was the golden child in her family and her family was fucked up. But then my therapist told me I was making too many excuses and I should feel angry and not skip to Forgiveness and understanding and that she could have gone to therapy and not damaged her children.

It's weird but my sister who was the golden child is far more messed up than me. She's in therapy atm and I really hope it works for her.

Forgiveness shouldn't be pushed. It's a nice neat ending but so what. You don't need a fairy tale ending or closure.

@dragonOverthemoon, i sometimes feel like that for five minutes, well less than five minutes, sometimes for 15 seconds I feel like I've forgiven and then it slips away.

My brother doesn't seem messed up at all. he is exactly like my mother. He is just so confident he's right, no self-doubt. He's sane, I'm insane. He's right, I'm wrong. I just can't picture my brother going to therapy.

I'm probably more like my co-dependent father ( I was in an abusive relationship) but unlike my dad I'm nobody's foot soldier (now) and I've done some of the work. ongoing of course.

Has your brother got kids lurking? Just wondering whether he plays out the same dynamics?

I think I can unconsciously parent like my mum. It's taken me many books and therapy sessions to not be like her. I do struggle with how much we're alike. I don't want to be like her, she was really horrible to me and I find it hard that I like the same things as her, I like doing the same things as her, we're really alike in many ways. Hating her is also hating myself in that respect, but I can't bring myself to love her. I wonder if that means I'll never love myself fully.

It's hard being codependent! I am also codependent and lose myself. My mum weirdly is also codependent and does the same things.

He hasn't. LIKE ME, although he'd never admit it, he wasn't able to form and maintain a relationship. I think I could now, but not sure I want that now. My brother is enmeshed with my parents. All of his labels are positive so he's no reason to feel, hey, you're defining me, and that's not who I am! He just laps up the labels because they're all things that are admiration really. ie, he's rational, logical, sensible, practical, reliable. I'm paranoid, sensitive, angry.....................

It's all bullshit. If he were logical he'd see all the double standards.

Actually, when I type out the list of adjectives that apply to him (allegedly!) I see that there was no space for creativity or spontaneity or space to rebel or be unpredictable.

I know what you mean about parenting like your mum. I sometimes catch myself going silent but I only need a few minutes, I don't keep it going for HOURS out of an ego defence.

Ironically my mother is a people pleaser out there in the world, except to me. To me, she is a narcissist. I guess it's like two different stress responses. Fawn (to the people she can't control) but ''Fight'' to the people she can control. Until fairly recently.

I like the adjectives!

So my sister had the good labels too. And like your brother there was no room for creativity, mischievous, funny, confident ect. So she's spent her whole life always being to good girl and never breaking any rules! Ever! And she is as lost as me if not more so.

I do think - thank god I had fun being the scapegoat! I broke loads of rules, had a great time and have friends. My poor sister doesnt have proper friends, it's really sad actually. She has a husband and a house and a friend who lets her down a lot. My mums the same with friends, doesnt make them and doesn't keep them.

I'm actually glad my mum didn't believe me when my step dad beat me up and I went to live with my dad, then my nan, then foster care. I'd be completely stuck in those adjectives she gave me.