October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Did you speak to your aunt @MintyChops Let her know what you're doing and why and that way she won't give your decision a negative interpretation. She'll understand.

I did speak to her today. In my panic and anxiety I had completely forgotten that I am a close contact of a friend who tested positive for covid on Saturday. I do not have to self isolate or restrict my movements but I am not supposed to go somewhere with crowds or enclosed spaces. I think a church counts so I was able to say that I was so sorry but I could not be there for the funeral. She was lovely about it and said she would much prefer to see me for lunch alone next week.

I am so glad. I didn’t want to cause her any problems with my parents, or resent them for being the reason I am not there or in some way make this awful tragedy of hers about me and my shit.

I also have something really interesting to examine with my therapist! It was such a mixture of anger, fear, resentment, shame, guilt. I know I am not able to meet them dispassionately, which is a goal of mine, almost to meet them with indifference or polite disinterest, as though they were strangers. I know now that I am still much too snarled up and emotionally charged about them to be able to do that. It tells me how much work I still have to do on dealing with the aftermath of their parenting.

Thank you so much again for the advice. I was on my own that day and it was really comforting to know this thread is here and there would be no judgement, just compassion and wisdom. ❤️

Oh good! Im glad you are spared the awkwardness of having to go to the funeral.
She will probably prefer to talk to you about the funeral than have another "head" there in the day.

And in less urgent business, that is a goal i share. To be able to meet my parents and hold on to my narrative but simehow be not at all triggered by their narrative. Im not there yet either. But I do know that recently I"ve felt like staying away from them may be a "grudge" in their eyes but it protects me. Although, it's them not talking to me at all right now

I love this jungian life. Hope it's ok to post it here. I have listened to most of them. I just find them quite peaceful and soothing. I think it's because it's just listening to a calm wise (it seems to me) conversation and I don't feel any pressure to absorb it all immediately. I just let the feeling wash over me.

Ps, I'm not putting myself under pressure to forgive by the way. I listened to this because I listen to them all. I think that berating yourself for not having forgiven is damaging. And forgiving too quickly is forced and not real.

I want to get to that place where their distorted narrative is no longer kryptonite to my wellbeing, and then forgiveness might follow, incidentally.

I do get quite angry with people who tell me I should 'forgive' my parents.

If either of them had ever shown even the slightest sorrow or even admitted that they'd fucked up (quite the opposite, all I get from my mother even now is aggressive defensiveness, personal attacks and blame) maybe I would consider it. But they haven't, and frankly I'm sick of being the one who has to just let things 'go'...

People who have no fucking idea of what I went through should keep their damn opinions to themselves. I need less gaslighting about my childhood, not more.

I get it, believe me. I want peace though. After this one, which was good, and acknowledged that forgiving isnt essential, easy, explained.... then i listened to a lourdes viado phd "woman in depth" poscast about cutting off toxic family.

Right now i have to see the estrangement as me not initiating contact to protect myself. I have only felt at my core that i should prioritise protecting myself over "sorting it out" quite recently.

I don't want to forgive exactly, I want to get to the point where their treatment of me no longer hurts. I can get there.

She’s back. Hello everyone. Hope we’re doing OK dealing with the toxics and the fallout. This board is AMAZING and has been a place of sanctuary in the ongoing saga of The Hag. Life saver. Relationship saver. No judgement. Bless you all.

Hello to new people and dear familiar faces.

I’ve been doing well. Not seen The Hag (toxic mother in law) since Boxing Day after she managed to make Xmas completely shit in the run up to it (September onwards) and over 48 hours.

I have stuck to my resolution. I didn’t do the things I would have once done like cook a New Year’s Day lunch, book a restaurant, do a meal for Mr Monkey’s birthday last week and invite his vile mother. I’ve kept to my guns. No contact. Feel good.

Interestingly, The Hag, I’ve realised, has never EVER arranged a birthday meal for any one or even HERSELF. Fun doesn’t enter into her point of reference. So she sticks £200 in an envelope for Mr Monkey, posts it through the letter box and off we go for an enjoyable weekend and spend £££ on glorious food.

Weekend starts interestingly on Thursday with Mr Monkey talking about the inadequacy he feels he has about not being the life and soul of the party. He IS funny and good company. The ‘inadequacy’ is something that crops up quite often. It’s a really deep and painful wound. It’s the way he was made to feel as a kid. He didn’t measure up to Golden Boy brother or Slave Son. He was viewed as the runt.

But a useful runt now as the Hag is frail and Slave Son is getting more and more disabled. Obviously.

There is a ‘Mr Monkey side of the family lunch’ coming up which is my idea of hell as it will involve dealing with The Hag, Slave Son and pretending to the rest of them (all lovely) that his mother and brother are normal. The fact is MM will be tense and I’ll be injecting wine into my eyeballs and I will be reeling from the shit for days afterwards

. I’ve thought about it a lot and tell him that I’m going to have a migraine. I made it clear at Xmas that I wasn’t going to do anything that wasn’t on my terms. I know migraine is ducking it, but I can’t be arsed with the conflict.

“But you like everyone else”
“I do. But my life is too short to pretend even for an afternoon that your bit of the family is normal. I’d dread it in the run up, I’d hate the lunch ant I’d feel shit afterwards. So, no.”

I have an inkling that this (reasonable) conversation triggered a massive argument on Saturday night. It came out of nowhere. He was shouting - he doesn’t shout - and really angry. It was awful. Sunday was dreadful and I actually booked myself into a hotel back home for a night as I couldn’t deal with being near him and his family dysfunction any more. It wasn’t violent, he didn’t call me names but I didn’t recognise the anger. it was the fact for me that this storm was something to do with his toxic family rather than me.

I’m now home and he has FINALLY filled in the form for NHS counselling and contacted three private counsellors to get a free appointment to see if he connects. Private counselling is something he can claim back from his job. I’m SO glad that finally he’s going to give himself something to help him heal.

I’m not backing away from my position of no or EXTREMELY low contact with his vile mother, but I will back him to get better. It’s not my job to say “go no contact with her”, but person centred counselling might let him see that’s a choice he might have to make. That’s not up to me and I’m not getting involved any more behind supporting him.

Interestingly, The Hag has been as nice as pie since Xmas (poor vulnerable saintly mother routine) as she doesn’t have to deal with the daughter in law who took her boy away and/or thinks she’s “won” as I’m out of the equation. I would once have cared about the “winning”. Now all I care about is me and Mr Monkey. The priority is my well-being. And now his as he’s realised his life can’t go on like this.

What was sad was him wanting me to see the NHS form to ‘prove’ he’s done it for my approval.
‘No, this is for you. It’s confidential.’
‘I said it was about bullying’

He couldn’t mention his family on the form as he’s so worried that, given the physical abuse, someone would get chucked into jail - if only - but there’s a lot of long term guilt, fear and shame that he carries to this day. Desperately sad. Very glad he’s sorting this out. It’s been a long time coming.

I agree with the plan to get diatance, and settle in to low contact and sit the next meal on yr husbands side out.

Would it be too antagonistic to say 'a prior arrangement'?? Nothing wrong with migraine but it's a bit more submissive than "i have a prior arrangement".
If you care about that. Probably wiser not to care.

Was the argument because you've said you won't go to this meal?

I do feel sorry for MM - it is extremely hard to come to terms with the fact that your family, in particular your mother, is fucked up and abusive. Sadly, it's often the 'outsider' who comes in and throws light on this truth - often by showing what a 'normal' family is like - who ends up getting it in the neck.

My mother blames my sister in law and her family for everything my brother does now that she doesn't like/agree with. Just before they were married, my brother's mother in law made the mistake of saying to my mother (thinking my mother was a normal person and after 20 years of being divorced was no longer consumed with bitterness and hatred) that it was a shame that my brother was estranged from our father and that our father should have been invited to the wedding...you can well imagine how that went down with my mother! She's hated and been very jealous of my sister in law and her family ever since. My mother rarely misses an opportunity to bad-mouth them to me...usually because my brother has visited them, spent Christmas with them...

As an adult you have every right to say you won't spend time with someone who has been abusive to you...it doesn't matter what the relationship with them is. Hopefully MM can remember this.

Hi Monkey. Maybe MM was experiencing additional anxiety now that you have removed yourself from the equation and he will no longer have you as a kind of human shield to take some of the flak.

Well done for sticking to your guns.

@UserBotLurking9to5 thank you. You are absolutely right. We’ve agreed on prior arrangement . It’s a work deadline. The Hag has long made remarks like I don’t know what Monkey does. I imagine she thinks that I sponge off Mr Monkey and most of my days are spent in a whirl of spa days and shagging the pool boy (if only)

@noirchatsdeux I’m not sure. We’d both had a surfeit of red wine. Lol. The main thing is that he’s apologised and we’ve moved on. I think the whole thing lurks with him constantly. Not my reaction to it, but how the shit with his fucked up family has made his life incredibly hard, battered his self-esteem. He actually sees it for what it is now. I think he didn’t have the vocabulary before.

You are absolutely right. The outsider exposes it and is blamed. I’m now past giving a fuck.

Your poor mother in law. A perfectly natural question to ask. A reasonable conversation could develop. But reasonable? I mean, c’mon.

Yep, the toxics are DEADLY if they’ve been exposed. This is exactly it with The Hag. Now I’ve pushed back, my mum (the giver of lifts, the chauffeur to hospitals) is viewed with jealousy and spite. My mum has withdrawn her services as life is too short, frankly.

@Sicario I think you’re right. Maybe THAT was the root of it - you’re right, @noirchatdeux I do ride shot gun. He’s now got his head round that I’m not going and my ongoing withdrawal.

I like the rest of his family - they’re normal and had exactly the same Irish Catholic lives as the Hag but are NORMAL - but I can’t sit with Hag and Slave Son and fake enjoyment and watch it become the Hag show DESPITE IT BEING THE FIRST TIME WE’VE SEEN THE FAMILY FOR TWO YEARS AFTER MM’s AUNT DIED OF COVID. And, of course, The Hag resented her sister in law for 1) taking HER brother away and 2) having a nice life.

Lately, I’ve Realised that Slave Son doesn’t like me either, probably because I’ve given Mr Monkey a life. The way Slave Son lives is his issue, not ours.

So proud of MM for the road he’s taken. Proud of me. He suggested the work reason.

Have blessedly been NC for a while thanks to lurking on this thread. Can I ask if anyone else seems to have a really strong ‘fixer’ mentality? 3 species of rescue animals, waif and stray friends staying for extended periods of time, voluntarily taking on the bulk of mil caring duties when alive etc. I can’t work out if it’s a pathological need to fix others cos I no one did it for me, a kind of projection if you will, or what it us. I look around and I don’t see others around me behaving the same way. I feel like I’m sorted with the original issue but then think, hmm am I really? I’ve put on 3 stones since the end of (really good) therapy that helped me go NC and I behave like a fixer machine do maybe not? Agh!

Hi viewfinderpiggle

You're right in that there is a link. It is the wish to fix others that represents what is referred to as codependence. At one time, the use of this word was limited to those who were in relationships with substance abusers. Now, it has a wider use in which the codependent sacrifices their own needs while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others. Codependency can occur in any type of relationship, including family, work, friendship, and also romantic, peer or community relationships. Codependency may also be characterized by denial of what is really happening, low self-esteem, and excessive compliance to abusers. People who are codependent often take on the role as a martyr. By constantly putting the needs of others before their own needs they get a sense that they are “needed.” Self sacrifice to the needs of others is never a good thing.

The need to be needed resonates, thank you. More work to be done I think.

@ViewfinderPiggle 100% get what you mean. All your ‘fixing’ sounds brilliant unless bits of it were grim. But yes, I think it is down to experiences. And it’s hard to see what’s good fixing and fixing that is detrimental to you. Healing is a journey so don’t think you should feel bad about it. There’s so much crap flying around with the toxics that there’s so many little and big things that drop into place - oh, that’s why they did that (bastards) and my reaction to x,y,z is rooted in that. Our brains are funny like that.

I’m the same - I think it’s caused by my violent ex boyfriend - and it flared up with The Hag (evil abusive MIL) as I was trying to help her. Pointless - it gave her an ‘In’ for more abuse, she was vile, I had more experience of her, and fuck all gratitude) I’m now practically no contact and feel less and less guilt every day.

Mr Monkey is a huge fixer and wants to save the world (that’s no bad thing) and has incredible empathy and compassion. But that can be exhausting and he puts others needs in front of his. Thank god, he’s not a martyr. He’s now putting himself first and GETTING HIS SHIT TOGETHER WITH COUNSELLING!!! He’s talked about it for two years.

Hi all, how is it going? I hope you're all ok in these crazy times and hopefully enjoying some lemon meringue pie!

Just wanted to share/ vent.. so today I was called the Gestapo by my Grandma as my mum hasn't seen my children since August. Never mind that my oldest has a mobile and she hasn't contacted him or I've only been low/ no contacted since October. My mums birthday is looming and I know it's about how it looks rather than wanting to see them and I was told there were laws coming in giving grandparents legal rights to children! My gran said she didnt want to be in the middle and was really upset by mum being upset. I said my mum was deliberately upsetting her so she spoke to me like this. My gran asked if she thought my mum was really that devious. My husband spat his drink out.

I was expecting something before we went in so agreed a safe word of dr pepper with my husband and eldest son, so that if I said it they could initiate leaving and start moving. Apparently throughout the conversation my ds was texting my husband with "is it dr.pepper time yet?"

Yes for the first 2 years i was desperately trying to FIX my mother's distorted perceptions of me, that was co-dependence i suppose. Only on the last month has my goal changed from "resolve this mess somehow" to "protect myself".

"My mums birthday is looming and I know it's about how it looks rather than wanting to see them and I was told there were laws coming in giving grandparents legal rights to children"

Whoever told you this straight out lied to you. There are absolutely no plans to bring such laws in. Grandparents do not have automatic rights of access to their grandchildren.

I would stay well away from both your grandmother and your mother going forward. Ignore your mother's birthday and do not further subject yourself let alone your son or your H to these two toxics. I presume you only visited as well out of your own fear, obligation and guilt; three unwanted legacies your mother instilled in you.

Justrealised

Have some of my lemon meringue pie!. Plenty to go round!!.

Thank you for the pie x

Yes i did visit for those reasons, with her being so old I want to have a clear conscience. I cant go nc with her but I can limit with her. I am starting to find some humour in what is said now.

My mum died recently and I didn't expect to be so angry at my siblings. It has destroyed our family and I guess our family was so weak is why that could happen.

My DM and I had a difficult relationship and she was endlessly critical of me including every choice I made or didn't make including my body, hair, job, clothes, tea and DH, who is lovely and was kind to her.

I dreaded visiting and always came away feeling angry and worthless but unable to say anything helpful or assertive that might have improved things. I couldn't deal with it in an adult way, which made me feel worse.

She was not abusive to me as a child, she was loving and I thought I had a good relationship with her but I can see now she was controlling. Her past made her need to do that, which I understand. I loved her deeply when I was a child.

I wanted to share a YouTube vid that just made me sit up and go 'oh'.

This channel deals a lot with religious abuse and cult dynamics, but he's excellent on abusive familial relationships, too. In this video, the section on 'oiling the squeaky wheel' about 10 minutes in was an unnervingly literal, accurate depiction of what my family is like. Maybe yours, too.

It really underscored the power of the enabler parent in the abuse dynamic. I've tended to think that the abuser (mum, in my case) was the driver, but actually, the more powerful force seems to be the enabler's desire not to feel difficult feelings or stand up for his children, rather than the abuser's aggressive flailing. If they're not enabled, they just flail into the void. Really insightful on the way they completely weaponise love and compassion, too.

I continue with no-contact and have reached 6 months. Enabler dad forwarded a weird, manipulative email from her recently with the header 'from mum, so you can not open if you don't want to'. .... maybe don't send it, then? He knows I have blocked every avenue she could use to contact me. Classic enabling - 'I'm forwarding this because I was told to and my spine dissolved long ago, you matter less than my desire not to have to say 'no' to her'.

I'm mostly good, had a big mood dip due to it being winter and not having much of a social life and beginning to process some of their awfulness for the first time, now I'm removed from it and able to think about it more objectively. I realised they financially abused me for many years and did some objectively illegal stuff through control of my identity and accounts. I also realised I'm not 'shy', as they always made me out to be. I'm quite an outgoing, sociable person. Was just terrified into silence so looked shy. Think I'm coming out the other side of that now. The sun is returning, it's (meteorological) Spring, better times ahead.