October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Aw Lurking, I'm quite lucky in that my parents split and my dad's side of the family were really there for me even though I caused so much heartache and stress to them. I was doing class As by the time I was 13.

I did start a self compassion journal switchresearch.org/ that I did for 45 days, it's 90 days and I haven't done it for the last couple of weeks. It might help you. I downloaded it as it was much cheaper then paying the shipping costs.

I know exactly how you feel with the cringe/ick factor for inner child work. My therapist wants me to do it but I just don't want too. I have a real aversion to it. Crappychildhood fairy doesn't believe in it and it is worth noting that it's one theory of therapy and just a theory, doesn't mean it's gospel and for everyone. Self compassion whether it's inner child self compassion or your whole self right now self compassion is still self compassion.

I'll look at the switchresearch journal. I do find that getting things straight in my head helps me believe in myself, which is like me believing me. Me supporting Me. Me seeing me. It helps

That's interesting that your parents split up so you have support from one side of your family.. I do think that my Dad could have been less co-dependent and less of a foot soldier with another more emotionally healthy 2nd wife. ha!

Good to know that it's just one theory/approach and not The ONLY solution! I liked the chapter in my self-compassion work book.
It talked about the ying and yang of self-compassion and i hope i've understood it right. Like comforting yourself, soothing yourself, validating yourself is the yin and then protecting yourself, providing yourself with what you need, and motivating yourself is the yang. That really resonated with me. To be the source of what I need. I need a lot, but the idea that I can give it to myself and provide myself with my own validation and protection was quite soothing. I needed to have it broken down a bit though.

No my dad left me for his awful 2nd wife! He moved away and his parents (my grandparents) went above and beyond for me and my siblings. He also had depression and was sectioned a few times during my childhood. Was shit but I've forgiven him and made peace. Didn't see him for around 15 years and now I make him text me and take me out for coffee now and again. I don't hold any real resentment or feel hurt. It is what it is. I can genuinely say it was hard for me and it was hard for him. I can't do that with my mum. I have tried and tried but I just can't. Instead I block off my feelings and end up in shit relationships where I re enact my childhood.

If the self compassion and yin and yang (I like the sound of that) resonates with you then do it. Watch the crappy childhood fairy inner child video too. She talks about it being hard to see different versions of yourself when you're actually a whole person. You get to decide what works for you and what doesn't! 👊

Yes I do! Thanks.

Ah, so your father leaving was not something that made yr life easier. Sounds awful. Your grandparents sound wonderful because it can't have been easy to have to talk to your mother in all of the circumstances.

Just a random thought I had today...I'm 53, was diagnosed with C-PTSD a few years ago (I'm also bipolar). I've been wondering for a while why my anger at what happened during my childhood has been getting stronger over the last decade or so...even think that the menopause might be contributing to it.

But today I suddenly thought - it's because time is running out. My mother is 80, she's the only parent I still have limited contact with. It's why I keep questioning her about things that happened 40 odd years ago...she's the only one left who can give me an explanation, an insight into why my parents acted like they did. Obviously as she either completely ignores my questions, or responds with anger and then tries to turn the blame on me...I'm never going to get even half an answer. That's what is making me so angry.

*even thought the menopause...

That makes sense @noirchatsdeux You need to know, so you ask and there is just no sensible answer.

She doesn't remember because it was so insignificant to them at the time. But then, that doesn't help for long, because you end up asking yourself 'but why was their treatment of me so insignificant to them??

Is there somebody else who could ask the questions for you? Maybe she would feel less got at. Which is invariably how she feels.

@noirchatsdeux bit out there but why don't you try some form of NLP or hypnosis. I was put under hypnosis in an NLP session and spoke to my subconscious! Then did edmr and tapping therapy. You might find the answer, the practitioner told me we remember every word and image in our brain, it's just tucked away. Tbf the edrm practices he gave me after do work to calm me down but I have so many bad memories it would be impossible to change the feeling around them for all of them.

Yes my grandparents were amazing and I'm very lucky that I have a solid attachment with them. I honestly feel if I could just put my mum issues to bed I'd be ok @Lurking9to5

Wow, that sounds fascinating. I'd love to be able to speak to my subconscious.

I feel kind of similar. I've had two sessions of therapy, last year and a half and ten years ago, both well worth it. Two good therapists. I was lucky. And now, I'm less sensitive, less reactive than I once was, I'm more resilient than I once was, I'm less passive aggressive than I was in my youth. I overshare inappropriately less.. I don't chase men who aren't interested anymore My critical inner voice has gone from being critical, to neutral, to kind. I'm far less anxious than I once was.

So, if you tipp-ex my mother out of the story, I'm OK, my emotional health is OK, but the last piece of the emotional good health puzzle is accepting I can't change her distorted perceptions of me, accepting that she thinks stone walling and silent treatments are normal, accepting that she blames me for our bad relationship.... and that is so hard to accept

Yes it was really cool! Also, you know that voice in your head that tells you you're shit/ect you can work out what side of the brain that is. Then say 12345/54321 and ABCDEFG and work out which side of the brain they come from. Then say the horrible things you say to yourself with the otherside of your brain! It takes the sting out of it.

Why do you find her pov so hard to accept @Lurking9to5

I think it's the injustice of it all that's so hard to accept. They act in this imperious aggrieved way and yet, the double standard infuriates me.
Their hurt is valid used to guilt me, but mine is a mere grudge, an accusation. They hurt me, shut me down, stonewalled me and see nothing wrong with that but judge me for having a reaction to being hurt, dismissed and shut down.

I need to tell my subconscious that it's ok if not everything is fair?
It frustrates me that they are so deluded and that their denial protects them.

I wanted to talk about things. I believed that talking could bring us to understanding each other. She got so angry with me and gave me the silent treatment. Then she summonsed me back to heel but I wouldn't go, so that was merely stonewalling. Then it was back to full on silent treatment again.

I just cannot believe how deluded somebody has to be to refuse point blank to communicate with their own daughter and yet still blame them for the rift. That is a level of delusion that absolutely wrecks me.

But yeh, it's the bit I need to accept.

I'm getting there, slowly, It is less hurtful, less exasperation, less frustrating, less upsetting than it once was.

It's a trauma bond isn't it. We talk about trauma bonding in dv relationships but we also have these bonds to other relationship abusers.

@noirchatsdeux - The anger is really tough to deal with but we have to find a way through it or it turns into poison running through our veins. I am in my late 50s.

I wonder, does your mother really not remember, or is it that she cannot admit what she did?

I am now coming towards 5 years NC with my family of origin and it’s still so hard sometimes. I know I will never get answers because people don’t change and the lies and gaslighting, the minimizing and blaming, will also never change.

There was no excuse for the terrible violence and emotional abuse. My mother hated her life and lived in an un-navigable construct of lies that I didn’t understand. I could do no right and I never understood any of it.

I have sought to emotionally detach with love – for my own benefit. Yes, I hate what was done to me, but I can’t live with that hate. So I choose to forgive and feel sorry for her, even though she won’t know this. My sister is also a spiteful unhappy person, and I just wish I had seen much sooner that she is cut from the same cloth as my mother.

@Lurking9to5 - Talking doesn’t work when you’re dealing with unreasonable people. They don’t want to hear you and will immediately go on the attack. It’s shocking. I think that they have to preserve their own veneer at all costs. The truth is too unbearable for them.

Apologies in advance if this becomes too long. I think I just need somewhere to set out all the thoughts that are running through my head. I have been feeling weighed down and despondent with everything - I do hope you don't mind my sharing?

So growing up my childhood was challenging. My parents divorced when I was little (I cant remember them being together). My Mum was young and rebellious - she was from a good family although they lived at the other end of the country, and she presented well to the outside world. However the reality of our day to day lives was very different. She drank heavily , did drugs and sex work. I was passed from person to person and sexually abused from the age of 4-9. When the truth came out no action was taken against the offender and nor was I offered any support. She became an evangelical christian/'born again' so this was all in the past and forgiven. Unfortunately her conversion did not result in a more secure/stable life- she continued to drink heavily with a new boyfriend who she violently rowed all night with. She slept all day , spent any money on alcohol, and allowed junkies and prostitutes to stay in the house with me alone whilst she attended prayer meetings before coming home to get drunk. The house was dirty, no food - I washed, dressed and took myself to school from the age of six. I was frequently picked on for my scruffy appearance but it didn't really bother me. Relations between my Mum and I were awful - we just didn't get along/physically fought and there was no love.

When I was a teenager my father (whom I had had limited contact - my Mum claimed he was abusive) became seriously ill.As an only child I was asked to go and look after him - I left home and it was great. He was not the person I had been told him to be. Clearly loved me and life, although hard (looking after a severely disabled man), was great. The authorities insisted that I return to my Mothers address to sit my GCSEs which I did - it was horrific. She clearly didn't care ( I think the love showed by my father made it even more stark?)- I was unfortunately attacked with a metal bar by a neighbour who, unbeknownst to us, had schizophrenia and as part of her delusions thought she needed to kill me. The police were involved but due to her mental illness no action was taken - I was again given no support despite having to pass the neighbours door every day to get to school - my Mum still didn't get up / just lay in a drunken stupor.

As soon as I had completed my GCSEs I moved out and lived with my father. I went to university and got a job which I did well at whilst looking after him. For over 20 years I was very happy with him and our life together ( although I did have a few relationships I think events early on have made it difficult for me to trust people so I haven't married or had children). Unfortunately in 2020 my father caught COVID whilst in hospital (having treatment for another issue) and died. It was a horrific and painful death. I had to take legal action to be able to see him and was alone on his death and throughout lockdown. I think I had some sort of breakdown ( following his death and problems at work). I have started receiving counselling which has brought up all the events of my past - in part I think the therapist explored it to explain why I was so unusually close to my father but I have really struggled- thoughts left spinning around my head.

My Mum is now in her sixties. She no longer drinks and is a 'respectable member of the community' but we are not close. Things are okay if I act like a stranger / as if nothing has ever happened. But it is hard. She has acknowledged what has happened but not her role in it. - 'I am sorry for what you experienced/the situation you were in', 'I am sorry for how you feel' etc.. I would happily have nc - in fact for two years, throughout lockdown, we had no contact at all. Neither of us were bothered about the other (although she would say to mutual acquaintances that she loved and was thinking of me daily - not enough to text me lol). Unfortunately my grandparents (her parents) also died at the beginning of lockdown. They were decent people - although believed everything she claimed about being a victim/ how hard done by she was/ how much she had sacrificed by having me etc (to be fair I didn't ever try to put another view- just not worth it?). They have left me a small inheritance - she is the Executor of their will and has texted me to say she has kept hold of it. I did provide her my bank details but she has not done nothing. I am sure it's a control issue/ that she thinks it will force me to have contact which I really don't want but I am having work issues and it would be helpful. I have left it for two years as with grieving for my father I don't have the energy for the inevitable games and fight but I know that I probably need to do something? How would you handle this? I feel exhausted and not up for all the games and half truths that will inevitably follow- the last couple of years have left me felling very low so I have just left it. Hoping that one day I may get some support and be able to take the issue. up but that creates a risk of never getting what was left to me?

Thank you for your time.

So true, for so long i wanted to talk but talking wouldnt solve anything, because they must have their rosy selves reflected back to them. The "mirror" i now hold up, unintentionally, reflects back reality so they have to demonise me.

Only distance can help me at the moment.

@moggs43 🍷
Welcome
X

Hi, was suggested to have a look at relationships board ,

hope you don't mind me joining..

Grew up with mum who's very severely mental ill (at present), she's never had good mental health but this is particularly horrendous . Option is either I care for her FT (whilst waiting on someone picking up hours as she's entitled to some care), or she goes into a home . She's mid 50s so too early for a home really .

My dad left when I was six . He would have had his reasons but I struggle to see them, particularly in terms of the way he left .

Both mum and dad cite domestic violence . Dad's remarried and very happy .

I'm struggling enormously . I'm so so angry with them both, hurting, frightened and exhausted - and then guilt all night for feeling angry . Mum cant take any responsibility for anything, her behaviour is mostly odd and unsettling - she needs help even going to the toilet on occasions .

I have a sibling - she's autistic, learning disability so can't help .

I'm feeling so very, very alone in the world and very angry with everyone around me, which is frightening me a lot . I confide in one friend but I think too intensely, she understands but I need to try to find other friends (or people to talk to) . I find myself feeling insanely jealous of her family as she looks like she would be a lovely mum .

I'm struggling enormously and I don't know what to do for the best .

I've started therapy again, for the umpteenth time since I was 16 (I'm 31) and so fed up and frustrated with everything . Keep finding myself in tears .

you're in the right place @imapaininthearse
I have found self-compassion helpful. i DID therapy too but the therapist recommended the practice of self-compassion to me and at first I felt self-conscious and a bit silly but it has lessened my struggle, and changed my focus from why oh why can't i fix this to .......... I'm going to protect myself.

this is the work book

I recommend it to anybody struggling. I'm still not at peace with it all, not 100% but this work book has helped.

Ps you have a lot on your plate though, in practical terms. Didn't mean to suggest that a book is going to change that.

xx

@imapaininthearse I completely emphasise with feeling so fed up being in your thirties after years of counselling and still not being alright, argh!

You've got to feel your feelings and not be annoyed with them. Self compassion and actually you don't have to step in and care for your mum. What you could do is refuse to do that and call an adults social worker to do an assessment and let them deal with both your mum and your sister. You are not responsible for your mum. If you make the decision to care for your mum then you need to make that decision out of a want to do it. If you don't want to then you'll actually be doing her a disservice as you won't be able to care for her compassionately. If you need permission to not care for your mum from someone else then you have it.

I've found the Patrick Teahan videos (thanks loads @UserBotLurking9to5) really helpful the last few days and have just started codependency for dummies today and read codependent no more yesterday. I've been signed off work for another 4 weeks and I'm actually going to do the inner child work that I've always cringed and not wanted to do. I did a visualisation today where I went to my old family home and looked around for her and found her. Feeling quite cringy writing that down but I'm going to give it my best shot and maybe find some peace in my life.

Hope you're ok Lurking!

Oh it will be a good month for you @dragonOVerthemoon, I took two weeks unpaid at the beginning of january and really worked on things.
Before, I always raced through the exercises with a kind of 'yeh yeh'' attitude. This was the first time I made myself try to do the exercises. And they can be uncomfortable.

I'm not saying this like ''done! sorted!'' but I'm further along the way than I was.

Thanks Lurking! I'm glad you also had that time! I have a half baked idea of getting my picture albums out of the loft and blue tacking childhood photos of me to my wardrobe mirrors (big double mirrored wardrobe) and writing lots of positive things about me, what I like, what I liked at that age on post it notes. But then I feel like I'd be really embarrassed if someone like a workman came round. Not that I have booked in any work to be done. But eventually I'd want to start dating again and would have to take it off. But then I'd be getting rid of my child again.

Id leave them there!. In fact, im so in to therapy, healing and growth, self compassion, id really need a bf to fully get that it's important to me, and support that, so if a man looked at my project and made a face or wasnt happy for me to work on myself a bit, or inferred something negative about me because of it, id get turned off.

But i get that some things are just private.

I took photos of old photos, i have a few on my phone.