October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I cannot decide whether to acknowledge my brother's big birthday. He hasn't made any contact with me since ''Happy Christmas'' on xmas day and since then, nothing. I had begged him to get through to our mother that all I had done was tell her that she hurt me (which she did, omg, 35+ years of projections and labelling and then, glossing over it). My pain is a ''grudge'' and and ''accusation'' but hers is legitimate and is held over me to shame me and manipulate me.
My brother has let me down. He hasn't made any attempt to get her to see things from my pov. I'm just a character in my mother's play. The part of ''daughter''. Daughter has no voice in the family at all, but is blamed for the estrangement. It is Daughter's fault (the new narrative). My mother walked past me on the street the other day. I said hello, she looked me coldly in the eye and walked past.

I'm so torn what to do about my brother. If I do not send him a card or something I'll be shamed and blamed and demonised even more. But then, when you're already persona non grata and none of them ever contact you, can they even ostracise me any more than they already do? I hate my brother for not standing up for me, but I feel it's a pain that could in the future be resolved. It is not his fault he is so enmeshed with my mother. He is the Golden Boy and I'm the scapegoat and my father is the pathetically weak co-dependent foot soldier of my mother. So between the three of them, judge and jury of 3, they blame me for everything. There is one perspective; my mother's. And she has two foot soldiers to say ''oh yes you're right'' when she is gaslighting me.
But one day they'll be gone (my parents) and all I'll have is this one weak brother. Do I just send golden boy foot soldier a card and then try not to think about it. Is that the safest thing to do.
It was my mother's birthday recently too. I tried to send her a card. I bought one. I wrote 'from userbot' in it but then I remembered how she said to me ''get help'' and I threw it in the bin. If you believed your adult daughter needed to ''get help'' would you give her the silent treatment and talk about her but not to her?
That ''get help'' was yet another wound on top of all the other ones. So her card went in the bin instead of the post box.

@whirlygirl I think it takes longer to recognise the dysfunction when you had ''enough'' or were sent to private school and had music lessons and so on. My parents have been generous to me although my brother has benefitted too. I think for a long time I thought if I could give back the money they gave me towards this house they would understand that they don't OWN me. That they didn't buy the right to silence my feelings.

But my brother has benefited and they just don't see him in the same way. His feelings are respected. In fact, he is so respected that there was a 'deal' done (financial) and it's like, not acknowledged how he benefited from it. The narrative is that I have to be grateful and the gratitude has to be expressed not just with gratitude (I was very verbal with my gratitude too) but apparently by accepting that I have no feelings or that they don't matter, only my parents have feelings.

It's just like this core belief in our family that I do not have feelings but then in the next breath they shame me for not being mindful of their feelings.

I can't take it any more. But I did take this for DECADES.

mUserbot similar situation which I also put up with for decades. Story too long to go into but similar to multiple posters on here (many thanks to all of them for opening my eyes, I lurked on here for a long time about 4 years ago and light bulb moments were multiple!) I went NC accidentally about 3 years ago when for the first time in my life I said no to my mother as she was really making me ill (taking advice from here about putting in boundaries, very reasonable ones that I would take her shopping once weekly, banking, all appointments, life admin ect but not phoned multiple times a day and expected to dash around immediately to change light bulbs, get her a drink from downstairs......... Yes really🤦) and she went off on totally unreasonable rant and said some awful things.

She then gave me the silent treatment, I think she expected me to go running back, but I was waiting for an apology which if she had given me I would have gone back because I'm such a people pleasing doormat (conditioned so from early childhood). Her pride got in the way, I was foolish to expect an apology (she's never wrong and a very bitter, negative, jealous person, don't think I've ever heard her say a nice thing about anyone or apologize) and so I left my brother to it, who had recently come back in her life after many years of no contact, golden boy of course got special treatment, she was on best behaviour with him. Instead of him sympathizing with me for what I'd put up with he is very angry that he is now getting the constant phone calls and having to sort her out. He was very abusive the last time I spoke with him on the phone a couple of years ago, he started having a go about him having to do everything (it was only 12 months at this point that he'd done anything) I said hang on a minute I've never given you aggro about doing nothing for 50 years (I'd actually said I didn't blame him for disappearing from her life and leaving me to it from me being early teenager, which he had acknowledged he had done in a previous conversation, I just said I wished I'd done the same) ........ He swore at me and put the phone down. The doormat had turned and he didn't like it. I've now heard nothing from either of them for over 2 years. Initially I was very upset and stressed, took me months to calm down, not feel sick everytime the phone went, unable to sleep due to constant events/conversations going around in my head but, now, I've never felt so calm and in such a good place! I've decided that the only family I have/need is just me and my grown up children, my FOO don't deserve me!!! Just wish I'd done it a lot sooner🤷

I would take advantage of the silent treatment, getting them to acknowledge the wrong they have done to you is in vane, they never will. You just have to learn to not care about being maligned to others as you have no control over this and you, and anyone close to you, know the truth! Live your best life without them........ It's so much more peaceful💐

mUserBot9to5

No I would not send him a card although his role ( these are
interchangeable as you have seen within the narcissistic family structure you come from) as the golden child is a role also not without price (but he is unaware of that).

Such people too never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. With you completely out of this picture hopefully these three will further turn against each other.

Had a phone call today, Mother has had a fall, broken ankle and has kidney infection. Brother says at 85 it could be the beginning of the end. I spent some time trying to work out if I’m bothered, turns out I’m more bothered by really not giving a shit other than ‘oh dear, that’s rough!’ Is that relatively normal in these situations?

@Gilead 💐 I've had similar feelings and felt bad about them as I'm actually a very caring person who will do anything for anybody but....... It's not our fault. I was used and abused by my mother for nearly 60 years, never felt loved, supported, appreciated for all I did for her in a vane attempt to please and feel her love, so how can we be expected to have normal feelings for these people. I finally acknowledged after a lot of reflection that I don't just dislike her I despise her and grieved for the mother/family I should have had😕 I wouldn't wish harm to anybody but I can't fabricate feelings which are not there and that is not my fault or yours. Nobody needs to know those feelings except you unless you want it though! 🌹

@mUserBot9to5 I'm sorry that was your experience. I really do identify with a lot of that, unfortunately.

Everything is about my mum or sisters feelings. Never me nor even my dad really. If I ever express a preference for something I'm ridiculed for either being silly or selfish. They're quite derogatory towards me in a subtle way and talk about me even when I'm nearby. I've recently realised that's triangulation.

I'm always being offered money too (but never accept if I can possibly avoid it.)

Thank you for all thoughts. @AttilaTheMeerkat I am at the stage where I can give up on my mother and father. They are the ones who had a responsibility to parent me and not gaslight me. But my brother, I'm not quite ready to give up on him. Yet. But ask me again this time next year.

@whirlygirl yeh, when I was looking in to family systems I was reading that the family often revolves around maintaining the denial of the most damaged person in the family. That is ironically my mother even though she is convinced that she is strong and we are weaker. She suppresses all emotions.

You are so wise to turn down the money. I took money for my house. I needed it. But they OWN ME NOW. They think. That's part of the reason they're so outraged by my saying they hurt me. HOW dare I.

@Gilead

Had a phone call today, Mother has had a fall, broken ankle and has kidney infection. Brother says at 85 it could be the beginning of the end. I spent some time trying to work out if I’m bothered, turns out I’m more bothered by really not giving a shit other than ‘oh dear, that’s rough!’ Is that relatively normal in these situations?

Don't feel bad. When somebody shows you over and over again that your feelings do not matter, eventually you realise that you feel the same about them.

But, instead of a card I'm thinking of a whatsapp meme. You know. Keep it minimal. No going out to choose a card. No writing in handwriting inside the card. No posting it. Just a facebook meme. Happy Birthday.

That's it.

I like this. Just this. No message.
But he cant say i didnt wish him happy birthday. Normally id get cards from me, a card each from both my teens, purchased by me, put under their noses with a pen and an intruction to write uncle goldenboy a greeting. Id get presents, coffee, chocolate, some quirky gift for the man who has everything.

None of that this year.

I often think about my own scapegoat status that the way they keep me in it is to not see me as a person who has feelings, it’s like I’m just there for them and that’s all they can see. Boundaries have been getting laid down and none of them like it, despite it happening for years they are still surprised.

In regards to your feelings @Gilead (outstanding name also!!) I have also felt similarly. I find it hard to like them, let along muster up strong feelings of care. Which is alien for me.

I attended an obligatory family gathering the other week, didn’t want to go, could not be bothered with the fall out or questions so went for a minimum period and made my excuses to be elsewhere. I didn’t enjoy a second in their company, I really don’t like any of them. They actually make me curl up a bit inside, I am embarrassed by them and hate being associated with them never mind related.

The subject of a family members significant birthday party came up. I said I won’t be going, said I’m busy (which I am but also would have no intention of going) this was met by shock! And almost outrage that I wasn’t moving heaven and earth to be there.

I don’t have any enthusiasm to spend time with any of these people for any reason, I do the bare minimum to keep it from becoming an argument (they are all v hostile & aggressive when they want to be). What is with the “big birthday” thing? They also bought me quite an expensive gift for a significant birthday yet wouldn’t even send me a card any other time. It was very awkward and strange. I don’t understand their thinking. I’d rather you just didn’t treat me like shit than buy me an expensive gift once every few decades. I don’t know why this really bothers me but it does, massively! Along with their social media outpourings of amazing people in their lives which are frankly bullshit! They openly speak to eachother in a very poor manner but proclaim to love eachother for the rest of the world. I can’t stand the false nature of it all.

All of us on this thread seem to have found friends who know we have feelings. So how can any parent have such a rigid core belief that their daughter has no feelings?

My brother knows i have feelings but his position is..... knuckle under. Accept the regime. He sees me, hurt, but still thinks that mum's hurt trumps mine.

So my sending him one picture on whatsapp is just to avoid making things worse. I think he will recognise it for the very minimal move that it is, ie, not wanting to not acknowledge it at all. God it's like chess.

I think in some ways I’m quite lucky. I have two brothers and a sister. About fifteen years ago they started comparing notes, Mother’s very good at the divide and conquer thing. Anyway they suddenly realised what was going on and that it couldn’t all be true. So we all got together and discovered just how deep it went and that it had be going on since childhood. I was polite but distant until she started with twin dds. At which point I told her to fuck off in no uncertain terms. I haven’t spoken to her since. So time and distance may be making it easier.
Funny, she always said that I couldn’t make friends. She’s never had one that lasted two years. I’m in my sixties and have primary school friends!
Oh and other brother has inherited her narcissistic personality.

Thank you for your kindness everyone. I wanted to keep this separate from the bit up there.
It’s reassuring to see that it’s not an overly odd reaction. 💐

yes controlling the communication is a thing in these families. I've realised that I shouldn't have let my mother be the 'channel' for all communication to both my parents. I should have tried to cultivate an independent communication if only occasionally with my father.

But now it'd be ''weird'' or strange. He doesn't contact me because Mum is giving me the silent treatment or stonewalling me (no longer sure, one of those) and he just takes his cue from her.

I sort of knew that was dysfunctional but I never tried to have my own channel of communication with my Dad.

I have always had my own communication with my brother though.

Hence Dad is more lost forever in my eyes. I have given up. I have said on here before :-( 2020 and 2021 were the years I tried to push water up hill trying to get my parents to see that they'd hurt me. It only made them angrier the more I tried. So 2022 is the year I give up. Not sure if they've noticed.

@Mossstitch interesting to read how things panned out between you and your brother when your mother cut you off.

I see what you mean about ''accidentally'' going no contact. You didn't orchestrate any of this. Your brother has no right to be angry with you.

@UserBotLurking9to5 if you give somebody a gift do you feel you 'own them', I'm sure you don't! I give my children money because I want to, I don't expect anything in return other than thanks mum and for them to use it and enjoy it. Once given it is no longer mine nor has strings attached as it belongs to them. You should not feel any obligation for anything given you!💐

I’d really like to join if that’s okay. My mum has just put the phone down on me as I called her to ask her husband to stop swearing at my 17 year old son. He’s a prick and always has been!
Her putting the phone down isn’t a new thing, but what I’m most sad about is that she doesn’t really know my son. I spoke with my sister last night as I wanted some clarity as to whether I was misjudging my son, but no. He’s polite, caring doesn’t like confrontation, is honest, funny and talks to anyone. As my sister said his only possible negative is that he doesn’t stop talking! . I’m so so proud of him, historically my mum cut ties with my grandma and aunties resulting in us not seeing or speaking to them. And for me who had a really great relationship with my grandma, didn’t speak to her before she died. But I encouraged and took my mum to her funeral as I didn’t want her to regret it in time to come. I’ve spent all my life trying desperately to please, and have apologised when I’ve done nothing wrong, but I’m tired. There’s so much other shit that comes from my past with my mum, but I guess what I can’t get past is when my sister called her as she was so concerned over my mental state and that I was going to act on suicidal thoughts, my mum came and told me off. I’m so bothered about cutting ties with her, mainly because I don’t want to do what she did but I have to
Protect my kids, they are my World, something I’ve never ever been to either of my
Parents.

Sorry to crash in, I am a long-time lurker and get great comfort and advice from the Stately Homes threads. I have a dilemma and I can’t ask anyone in real life who really understands. I am NC with my parents but very close to my mother’s sister, my aunt. She is not a flying monkey, is aware of the reason for the estrangement and is very supportive of me. The problem is that last night my uncle, her husband, died very suddenly. They had been very happily married for 50 years and she is devastated. I want to support her but I know my parents will be at the funeral and I just don’t know if I can cope with seeing them, especially at such an emotional event.

What should I do? I was thinking of not going to the funeral but instead going to see her and spend time with her next week. I’m worried about upsetting her and I am friendly with my cousins who are all very very upset too. Does anyone have any thoughts please? I’d really appreciate it.

@MintyChops - better to go see her and spend time with her next week. Funerals are emotionally-charged at the best of times, so I would avoid.

@mintychops yeh, agree with @sicario, I'd let her know you'll be there for her in the days, weeks and months after the funeral. The funeral is ONE day.

@Itsallchange that sounds tough. Don't feel guilty about taking a step back. Don't initiate contact for a while now.

@MintyChops I agree also, funeral is one day, ongoing support is invaluable. Just explain briefly you don’t want there to be a scene or upset on the day to celebrate your uncle so you feel your absence would be best for the occasion itself but you will be there for her as you’ve stated.

@Itsallchange I also agree best to take a step back. It’s hard and so disappointing to have to deal with this. I understand your feeling of not wanting to “do what she did” on the face of it, it may look the same but you know your reasons & your children being first is the best reason there could be. Go with your gut.

Thank you so much for the replies Sicario, UserBot and Notme. My head is all over the place about this. Ironically, I am due to have my weekly session with my therapist at the same time as the funeral. I think on balance I won’t go but it isn’t sitting easily with me.

I feel that my not going somehow gives them “custody” of the nice extended family. They will be able to say whatever they like about me, that I am cruel, over-sensitive, difficult etc and I’m worried that my aunt will be hurt by me not going and I will be judged as a bad cousin/niece as well as a bad daughter by all the other relatives who don’t actually know what my parents have done. For context, I am in Ireland where attending funerals is almost a national pastime.

Is it still limited numbers for funerals? I'm losing track. I know what you mean. By not going, you feel like you're just throwing the towel right in, letting them think the worst, not even trying to defend yourself, not just letting them pick a side but nearly forcing it. Well, that's how I feel right now.

But, Do all relatives believe what they're told ??? A cousin who is getting divorce reports that his x spouse is bi-polar. I never, ever saw any evidence of that. I thought, is she....hmmmm.

I need to be more detached from the hurt and anger my mother has caused me if I bump in to any of relatives (unlikely but not impossible). I'd be trying to defend myself ''subtly'' and it would be a disaster. A PR disaster for me! By me!

I'm missing my therapist! I wrapped it up just before Christmas. But it's kind of addictive. I only went fortnightly for about 18 months but going in there and getting that relief was so good.

Now, I'm ok, working on self-compassion on my own.

So, I have made the difficult decision to NOT get upset by relatives' low opinion of me, and to not try to correct what they may have been told. I'll just keep going to work and coming home and hopefully time will show that I'm not some maestra machiavellian demon ingrate.
Whatever my mother is saying about me to extended family will be what they believe. She is trashing me. Two aunts who would normally have responded to texts I sent didn't respond.

it makes me sad but I cannot change it. If I gave them MY side, they'd disbelieve it think ''but your mother is so hurt'' so I am going to let her have her rabble. They're her relatives. And it has surprised me a little how quick they took a ''side'' and joined in giving me silent treatment. So, great people and a tragedy to lose them????

So even though it's sad (in theory, but is it, were they all that great??) I'm just going to have to let the tentacles of my mother's smear campaign decide for me that I'm no longer in the fold.