October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I really wish I could invite everybody over to my (totally not) Stately Home this evening for supper and hugs. Wherever you are, I hope you are all hanging on in there.

I would totally take you up on that offer @Sicario! We can sit in our pjs and eat takeaway and cake

I’d bring over a lemon meringue pie, some soft drinks and some decent white wines!.

Bloody lemon meringue pie? That's fighting talk.
(I love LMP.)

This sounds like the best night ever!! Love to you all!

Sorry I missed the night out, sounds amazing tho x

Hey, how's everyone? Just catching up with the great advice on this thread.

I am three months into NC with the Bogeymum. Still get moments when I can't believe it and moments when I'm scared...no moments where I miss her though.

Appearance is so important to her, I wonder how she hides mine and my younger sister's absence?

She will be utterly furious with us - I wonder if she thinks I will come crawling back?

She told me I am weak, and far too kind and loving to stand on my own feet. It was a total surprise (to me and her) when I cut contact.

She has some strong psychopathic traits and an unbreakable belief in her own superiority. She told everyone I was dependent on her and couldn't cope without her.

I live in fear of her turning up at my house. I'm hoping we will have moved by May but it has taken longer than I thought.

For those who went NC, how long did it take before you felt less like the abused child you were and more like the fully-rounded adult you want to be?

@MrsBaublesDylan - I think I've felt very adult for a long time, but I feel very deeply for the abused child that I once was. I feel so sorry for her and I hold her deep inside me every day and take great care of her. She knows she can rely on me and that I will protect her to my last breath.

I will never forgive the violence and abuse she was subjected to, because it was unforgivable.

But we're okay now, and I intend to keep it that way.

Hello

I've dipped in and out over the last couple years. My partner and I have just cancelled our wedding. I am not sure if he is himself abusive or just a massive trigger in my recovery, my intuition tells me it's the latter, but either way we couldn't get married because we are in a really bad place.

I have started therapy, therapist seems ok, pretty clued up on trauma/ co-dependency and the like.

It's been such a painful week, we have four children and I dread telling our eldest kids.

Anyway, all that will be dealt with in due course. Whilst I have issues with my partner it's my foo I have the real big issues with. I feel I have been scapegoated for the last few years, my heart feels like it is actually broken sometimes. I have emailed my mother and siblings in a round robin email to tell them about the wedding, left it very plain- Jane, no details, just that it wasn't happening. One of my siblings replied, sounding very concerned and basically wanting to know why. I feel very let down by them all having spent most of my life eager to please and support them only to discover this was only ever going to be one way.

How do I respond? How do I grey rock this enquiry? It seems crazy to turn a family support at such an emotional time and yet I know I need to.

Please could someone advise on how to grey rock when you are so emotional and conflicted? I am so scared a lack of response will cause an "oh she just wants us to feel sorry for her" reaction or an honest and emotional response will be invalidated.

Oh that sounds very difficult. Four kids. I hope they're not too young.

Im sure they have an awareness that it might not be a perfect relationship.

I'd be quite matter of fact to your sister, thank her for asking and say you're going to OK but maybe not immediately.

I think grey rock for beginners is waiting a bit longer to reply, saying less than you'd usually say, not justifying anything, not defending anything. But if your sister is hoping you're ok, then I think it's ok to say thank you for asking I'll be ok soon.

I didn't tell my family I was seeing a therapist to begin with. Unfortunately i did end up telling my mother because she said ''get help'' to me. So I told her I was seeing a therapist to help me deal with the fact that my parents do no think my feelings exist or matter. They stonewall me and yet blame me for the relationship disintegrating. It seems very unjust to me but they're angry with me. The therapy helped.

I didn't respond to the email in the end, maybe I will later. The parents called and are upset (for themselves I suspect) "Well I don't know what to say, there's nothing I can say" was the response I got. I suppose that's fair enough. I just find the statement slightly aggravating as that's the only response I ever had when presenting them with anything remotely emotional throughout my whole life.

I'm really sorry to hear about your wedding plans @Zoolife101 and the lacklustre response from your parents.

I'm waiting for the hate campaign from my sister to begin. Told one of our other siblings about the fall out and me basically saying I don't want to have any contact with her now and he was saying he was dreading her now phoning him and trying to get him to side with her, which she absolutely will do . Anyway, I just said I don't care anymore. This has been brewing for years and at times our dad has been really shitty about my stance on sister. So much so, it actually freed me in the end. I tried to do so much damage limitation and it didn't work. So now I'm doing what it right for me and my dh and dcs and if anyone kicks off; tough shit really!

Ps: thanks for the lemon meringue pie @AttilaTheMeerkat! My absolute favourite!

@Zoolife101 @UserBot9to5 @TakeItToTheChorus

I sometimes think that the zero emotional support from my parents is the hardest thing to deal with. For me, it's made me just feel 'invisible': like I don't exist, my problems don't exist, they aren't worth anyone caring about or bothering about...

Doesn't matter how much I try and rationalize it - "what do you expect, they are totally fucked up narcissists, you don't go to the well when you know it will be dry" etc... - it still fucking hurts.

Whenever I speak to my mother (which is rarely) I always end up getting off the phone thinking something along the lines of "It's all me me fucking me, isn't it mother? Why did you even bother having children?"

When I started having therapy (30 years ago now!) all she cared about was if I was "bad mouthing her" to the psychiatrist...it made me realise that the door swings both ways, that if that was the example she wanted to set, she couldn't/shouldn't be surprised when she reaps what she has sown...

Feel sorry for them. They are the ones who are fucked up. They are the ones who are missing out on having a real and full relationship with their children. Be grateful you know real emotions and how to express them....and that you won't be setting your own children the same poor example.

Another thing, slight tangent, I have recently started a new job. Alarm bells-a-ringing. Felt like something was "brewing" with my boss. It erupted last week and resulted in her (almost) shouting at me, not listening to me, accusing me of something fairly non- important. She didn't allow me to put my side of the story to her because she ended the convo saying "there's a client outside, we will talk about this in an hour when he has gone" (yes, I'm pretty sure client heard the rage). Client goes and I'm ready to talk and she says " Right, we'll put a line under this and move on". I'm still in shock. What about my side? The side that would clear my name? She is gushingly nice to me all afternoon. She touches my arm and tells me how she protects her staff.
My head is reeling. Really really reeling. I have spent two days crying off and on, ok this is mainly related to my fucked relationships but I don't even have sanctuary at work. This leads me to convince myself AGAIN that I the narc, I ruminate on my behaviour and what I've said looking for clues that I am that person and looking for evidence that I am not. This is simply because HOW can it possibly be everyone else...how?!
Please someone could recommend a podcast, a book, a video...I've heard stuff about attracting the same old narc relationships but, really, really? How can it NOT be me?

And actually she was shouting, she was almost rageful. She was unprofessional, she was guilt inducing, she blanked me I'm front of the client and then she raged when they went and we were waiting for the next and once she'd unleashed she become friendly and supportive
..all the while I felt like a hollow shell, like my insides had been carved out, stewing in the injustice and yet at the same time I'm still trying to please her through stroking her ego

I've literally just gone very low contact with my parents after years of their controlling and manipulative ways, ever since I was a small child nothing I did or achieved was ever good enough just told to "do better" they constantly invaded my privacy and would snoop through my belongings, never have anything nice to say about me, when I attempted to move out a few years ago they sabotaged the whole thing as in their eyes I have no idea how to live my own life and think I need them.the last straw was when my dad told me I had ruined their lives and I should have succeeded with my suicide attempt a few years ago. It's a massive weight but I feel so guilty

Shaking off the feelings of guilt is (in my opinion) one of the hardest aspects of going NC. But it's really important and definitely worth working on. The guilt is all part of the years of conditioning into accepting your role.

DITCH THE GUILT. Take it off like a coat that doesn't belong to you.

It took me some years, but bloody hell, I am so glad I don't feel guilty any more. I didn't deserve any of that hurt and abuse, and I don't owe any of my family anything. Including explanations. Good riddance to the lot of them.

@TakeItToTheChorus - I totally get you on the "hate campaigns" from your sister. Mine is exactly the same.

@Zoolife101 - look up Dr Ramani on YouTube. She specialises in narcissism and has a lot of explanatory videos.

Hello, I've seen these threads over the years but couldn't ever quite articulate what my issues were. This week I've had a bit of a series of clicks - a bit like a magic eye puzzle clearing.

I had the classic stately home upbringing. Lots of good stuff. Also lots of dysfunction. I totally adored all my grandparents as a child. At 9 my mum sat me down one day and told me how they were all abusive. It shattered my faith in everything I knew and I just couldn't process it. She then shared more and more with me until I utterly dreaded the long conversations where she offloaded her childhood crap on me. I was too young. It was inappropriate.

It shifted the dynamic so I couldn't be a normal, stroppy teenager - I was totally terrified of upsetting mum. Unexpected things I did triggered her. I used to feel sick when I realised I'd accidentally done something selfish or anything that would displease her. I made sure I was a straight a student, never got in trouble. A classic pleaser.

Dsis was considered the vulnerable one. They established a very co dependent relationship that I was excluded from. Decades later they still whisper about me, weaponise anything I do share with them and judge everything I do. I'm really independent because Ive had to be and I've been quite successful career wise and they can't really deal with that. It's also helped me gain some confidence. I don't take shit at work and I don't want to take it outside work any more either. It's so unnecessary.

Over the years they've told me how awful I am, how selfish, they don't understand me, they know the real me but my friends don't because I pretend with them etc etc (that one is particularly nasty). there was a brief period when I went through something tough when they were kind but it wore off spectacularly after a few months when they got fed up and I was cast back into my usual role. I've had some friends for 30 plus years and they reassure me It's not me! I've also got on with colleagues everywhere I've ever worked. I'm never intentionally unkind to anyone, ever.

I'm pretty low contact and try to avoid seeing them together where possible. I don't live nearby which makes things easier. Dad is great on his own but has been slowly poisoned over the years by all this.

I think what I wonder is now I've identified all this, and can almost see it from a detached viewpoint, what do I do to heal from it? Do I need a specific kind of counselling.

Thanks so much to anyone who waded through this!

@whirlygirl - welcome! Sounds like you're in the right place here.

Your comment - I've had some friends for 30 plus years and they reassure me It's not me! I've also got on with colleagues everywhere I've ever worked.

This is really interesting and I wonder if it is another common theme here. I too have maintained wonderful life-long friendships, have got on well with people, etc. The only person who has constantly fallen out with me over any perceived slight is my toxic sister, with her enabling husband. Being around her was like walking through a minefield. You never knew when you were going to tread on an explosive.

I've learned to stay away from vexatious people.

Thank you @Sicario

It still surprises and touches me now when friends do kind things for me as I'm still not used to it. I got sent so many flowers from my friends for my birthday last year I had to borrow vases from the neighbours.

In contrast, my last milestone birthday was acknowledged by a generic card from my parents and nothing at all from my sister, not even a phone call. No family meal, no celebration to mark it. No actual recognition that it was a big one. I was too embarrassed to tell my colleagues the truth when they asked what my family was doing for me.

Family can be such a let down. It's hard to come to terms with and get over in my experience

I'm NC as I wasn't the golden child and eventually got pushed out. Narc bitch of a mother must have everything done on her terms, is selfish and loves attention. She and I will both go to our graves with things unresolved I just know it. It's a sad situation and hard not to think about sometimes

Since I moved and started meeting new people, I have been open about being NC with my family of origin. I explain simply that my family dynamic is highly toxic and that I walked away from it all and that my life is so much better for it.

It's been no surprise to me that the responses usually include stories of how they too have had to navigate difficult family dynamics.

This is all a lot more common than most people would care to admit to.

@whirlygirl I am sorry you have had that experience.

My mother did the same...up until I was about 10, we were very close with her family of origin...and there was a lot of them, she was one of 9 siblings. We were closest with and lived in the same city as my grandmother and the 3 uncles who hadn't left home to look after her. One of those uncles we spent the most time with - he took us to museums, the park, the cinema etc...pretty typical uncle stuff. He'd take us when he went food shopping after school on Wednesdays and we used to spent at least one full day with him at the weekend. I was born in Australia and we were living there.

My mother fell out with her family when I was 9 due to what turned out to be a disastrous decision (which was blindingly obvious from the start) that my parents made to move abroad for my father's work. My mother was angry that they didn't support the decision, and when we had to leave my father there after less than two months we didn't return 'home' but came to the UK.

Suddenly her family could do nothing right, she bad mouthed them all at every opportunity. As a young child it was very upsetting and confusing, especially when we returned to Australia when I was 11 - my mother still expected their support (including financial) but was still very negative about them. We left Australia again 18 months later and came back to the UK...and my mother lied to them (and myself and my two brothers) and told them we were going to another country. She then went total NC with them for nearly 7 years - contact was only re-established when my younger brother rang my grandmother on his 18th birthday.

When I had just turned 21and my father had left her for OW, my mother suddenly decides to tell me that the uncle who we had spent the most time with as children had sexually abused her as a child. Like your mother, she'd been unloading all her childhood crap on me since I was 9. Being sexist as well as a narcissist, my brothers weren't subjected to this burden.

I'm now 53 and I still haven't processed it all properly. If it is true, my mother put myself and my brothers in the direct path of a man she knew was a paedophile...for years.

I'm bipolar and have been under seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist for 20 years. I was diagnosed with C-PTSD a couple of years ago...but thanks to covid getting the appropriate counselling is providing very difficult. I'm also very LC with my mother and deliberately live on the other side of the world. I've now not seen her in nearly 13 years. Anyone new who now asks about my family, I tell them I don't have any.

It's not you - it is them.

@noirchatsdeux - your story is so moving and must have been really tough for you to deal with. Keep working on your healing. It's taken me years but I'm getting there.

Thank you @Sicario

Sometimes I feel like I 'go on' about it too much (especially on here) but I feel if at least one woman thinks twice about staying with an abusive husband 'for the children' - my mother's favourite 'get out of jail free' card - it will be worth it.

That excuse was a load of utter bollocks, btw. She didn't leave because she didn't want to look bad in front of her family, and didn't want to have to support herself. She's now 80 and still reckons my father owed her financial support for her whole life because she had children...even after he left she only worked part-time for 2 years and then gave it up...she was 49 and never worked again.