October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I would contact BACP all the same as they may be able to help. The fact that you are on UC should not be a barrier to actually getting the support you need.

NAPAC's website could also be helpful and their phone support line is free to use:-

napac.org.uk/other-support/

There are loads of low cost and free therapy providers that are means tested. Google “low cost counselling xxxxtown”

Is it too late to join this thread?

Not at all. This particular thread does go quiet from time to time.

Anyone else experience emotional manipulation and blackmail from a parent even as an adult?

@Pumpkinpatch22 absolutely! I experience this mostly from M but my entire FOO operates on manipulation and emotional blackmail. It’s their way of trying to keep me in my place/box/role. I think all of us on here experience this so can relate. Is this something you are struggling with just now, feel free to talk if you are up to it.

Thank you. I love my family very much but do find the guilt tripping and passing blame hard to handle and unjust. E.g. you have ruined your brother’s entire weekend as you talked about Covid and you know He worries about that. He won’t be able to enjoy his weekend now, that was selfish of you.” The conversation was nothing to do with him, he simply overhead the phone call (I didn’t even know he was within ear shot!)

I can't cope with my FOO at all. I tried to challenge the unhealthy dynamics by asking them to stop labelling me paranoid (total projection) and they labelled me angry. They gave me the silent treatment. For a while. Until my mum got sick and then I was summonsed back to play the part of daughter but it was made very clear to me that I still had no voice in the family. My mother even said in a whatsapp ''your father and I decided not to discuss this with you''. So in other words, their position forever is, respect our right to hurt you. The end.

Sometimes I think oh god does any of it matter. I nearly sent my mother a birthday card the other day but then I couldn't. It was the combination of her telling me I ''needed help''' the last time she whatsapped me and her martyrdom that stopped me.

This is it forever. I don't have feelings. Or they don't matter. One of those. And yet they simultaneously guilt trip me for the pain I caused them asking them not to gloss over decades of projection.

I just need a break from them. They haven't the emotional intelligence to ever get this.

My mother gets out there with other relatives (also practitioners of the silent treatment) and has to a degree at least talked about me but not to me.

I have a big family on her side but a pattern seems to run through the family on that side. Keep it light. Cat memes. Rugby results. Never ever connect . And if somebody inadvertently challenges your rosy perception of yourself, well, give them the silent treatment for a year.

Family................ Argh.

[quote Notmenottoday]@Pumpkinpatch22 absolutely! I experience this mostly from M but my entire FOO operates on manipulation and emotional blackmail. It’s their way of trying to keep me in my place/box/role. I think all of us on here experience this so can relate. Is this something you are struggling with just now, feel free to talk if you are up to it.[/quote]
Yupp. I feel a lot of guilt too. My parents' parents were dead when they had toddlers.

But now I'm 51 and I realise there is never going to be the adult to adult relationship I wanted. The only relationship they are comfortable with is superiority:compliance.

And if I don't comply, they don't think, oh well, Userbot is in her fifties they take it as proof that I'm immature.

I had therapy for 18 months though and the therapist did encourage me to be kinder to myself and to see what I'm responsible for and what I'm not responsible for. I'm not responsible for my mother's decision to give me the silent treatment and then stonewall me.

I kind of knew that I was being goaded and bated in to feeling anger but the therapist allowed me to feel that, as a natural normal reaction to being ignored, invalidated, stonewalled etc..

I am trying to be less reactionary. The thing is though, when your family has stonewalled you on something important for nearly two years, it's not just the issue you wanted to talk about that becomes less important. The family becomes less important.

Any day now I will be able to go and talk about the weather, the lunch, the garden.........

Not yet though.

How do you forgive your mother for projection a whole family's low self-esteem on to you for decades and then telling you to ''get help''.

I hadn't told my mother I was having therapy. I did when she told me to ''get help'' and she had no response to that.

More silence.

Pumpkinpatch22

re your comment:-
"Thank you. I love my family very much but do find the guilt tripping and passing blame hard to handle and unjust".

They do not love you nor their own selves. People in emotionally healthy families do not readily try and guilt trip and blame other family members. People from dysfunctional families too end up playing roles.

I think people tend to love their family of origin anyway no matter how crap/abusive/toxic/batshit etc they sadly and actually are. I would suggest you completely drop the rope they hold out to you because they are not going to change nor are they going to apologise or accept any responsibility for their actions. You can though change how you react to them. With you out of their picture they will hopefully turn against each other.

By the time most of us find the Stately Homes thread, the damage done by disordered family dynamics is too deeply ingrained to be fixed.

Trying to change other people is a complete waste of time. The constant blame-shifting, silent treatment, sulking and finger-pointing is a common theme here. By pointing the finger of blame at someone else, those family members don't have to look at themselves.

Often the only route to freedom from persecution is to walk away and go no contact. Although that in itself causes an earthquake in the family of origin because we're not supposed to complain or vote with our feet.

This is a great place to let it all out and share our experiences of disordered families and the abuse they mete out.

Completely agree with all of the above. Growing up in this environment, you accept it for what it is. You don’t know any different, as a child you have no basis for comparison so this behaviour is “normal” to you.

Once you become an adult, you see things differently, you can spot the toxic behaviour. Often having children of your own can magnify this further.

Once you see the behaviour for what it is, you try to change it or pull away from it. YOU are then the problem! You are making waves, changing things, no longer accepting their narrative. If you are in a relationship at this point your partner will often be blamed “you’ve only been like this since you met xx” the reality is, you accepted their behaviour previously because you knew nothing else. Now you are an adult, you can see their behaviour for what it is.

They won’t change though, the narrative will always be that you are the problem. Finding ways to deal with it and distancing yourself is the challenge here.

As @Sicario says, the only way to freedom is NC though that in itself is not an easy road.

I myself am trying hard to set and enforce boundaries, keep a distance and not engage in the madness. It’s not easy though and I slip often, unpicking decades of training isn’t easy, but I believe it if possible. I’m determined to carve my own path and create a healthy environment for my own DC. I need to keep fighting and picking myself back up when I slip.

Hi all, my grandma called me last night in tears saying I'm being cruel and need to stop now (I've massively stepped back from my mum, 3 messages over new year). She told me that I should apologise and make up for the hurt I've caused as it's affecting her mh. I said it's going to hurt my mh to do that and if this was a relationship with a man and not my mum she would tell me to run, I asked if my mums mh was more important and she said yes but then took it back. She agreed about the if it was a man but said it was different because she is my mum. My gran admitted that my mum had asked her to lie to me about things so I would come back. She eventually said after about 10 minutes that I sound logical.

I told my gran that I loved my mum but that I cannot trust her, that I've tried to work on the relationship many times in the past but she keeps hurtingme, betraying me etc. My gran agreed with this but said I shouldn't withhold myself from the family. She also said that my behaviour is ruining my mums relationship with her husband and that she can't be happy without me. I pointed out that her happiness cant be dependant on one person and that there are other people in her life. The conversation went on like this. It was horrible. I know you've pointed out that my gran is a flying monkey before on this thread but I can't go nc with her or even LC, she's in her 80's and has been thr only stability I had growing up.

Sorry I needed to vent/write that down. How can I be soley responsible for my mums happiness? It's crazy, it means they want me to go back to how it was so she can be happy and I cant do or say anything about it even if its hurting me (I said this also).

@Justrealised - that's very upsetting for you. Please read about "triangulation" which is what is happening here. Your mum is taking it out on your grandma, knowing it will be passed along the line to you. So yes, your grandma being used as a flying monkey, and so the pattern keeps going round and round.

Your mum's happiness is not your responsibility.

Your comment about trust is very valid. When you've been hurt and lied about (and gaslighted) then of course, how can you trust that person? You can't.

It took you a long time to work out what was happening, and to see the messed-up dynamics of how your mother operates. And once you've seen it, you can't unseen it.

Something I've been thinking about... that phrase "I love my mum but..." And I got to thinking, do I actually love her? I'm not sure that I do. The damage she caused to me was shocking. The person who I absolutely do not trust is my toxic sister. She has said vile things not just to me, but about me to anyone who would listen. So there's no love there either.

Continue to protect yourself. Know that you are not wrong. Your gran of course just wants everything to go back to "normal". But their version of normal is at your expense. I think you explained it very well to her. That in itself shows how well you are doing with your boundaries.

But still, very upsetting for you.

I'm sorry @Justrealised, but personally I think your grandmother is dreadful for putting you in that position. My mother is 80, and for my whole life she's been an emotional terrorist, first making my father, and after he left, myself and my brothers wholly responsible for her happiness.

No matter how you come to the realisation, be it through therapy, having a family of your own or seeing how 'normal' families work, that their behaviour is not only wrong, but very damaging, I don't think there is any 'going back'....

Any sane logical person knows that only they are responsible for their own happiness. I think that if you want to stay in touch with your grandmother, you are going to have to be blunt, possibly to the point of rudeness, when it comes to mention of your mother. If your grandmother starts, refuse to discuss it. Tell her that you are there to talk/see her, not your mother. That as an adult you get to decide who you have relationships with...if your grandmother won't stop, cut the talk/visit short.

I'd also remind your grandmother that your mother's relationship with her husband is absolutely nothing to do with you. My mother blames me for my father leaving her for OW, so I know how painful being blamed like this. My mother is wrong, and so is your grandmother.

Best wishes to you.

Justrealised

Your gran was indeed a flying monkey here and is not interested in hearing your side of things at all. Her opinion therefore should be roundly ignored. Its no point whatsoever in speaking to her because she is both unwilling and unable to listen.

I would think your mother and your gran are actually very similar to each other. The fact that you feel that you cannot reduce contact with your gran due to her age now and being a source of past stability are really no basis for not actually reducing contact levels. Your nan was asked to do this by her daughter and she went along with it; flying monkeys are often easily manipulated as well into doing others bidding for them. Both want you to return to the fold so that their dysfunctional narratives can be maintained.

Re your comment:-
"It's crazy, it means they want me to go back to how it was so she can be happy and I cant do or say anything about it even if its hurting me (I said this also)"

How did your gran react to that?

You are correct also in that you are not responsible for your mother's happiness, nor for that matter your gran's.

Thank you both for the replies. It's strange that I needed that from people who don't know me to know I'm not being cruel. @Sicario I will read up on triangulation, thank you. I'm reading Toxic Parsnts by Susan Forward atm which resonates so much.

@noirchatsdeux my husband says he can tell when my mum has seen my gran as she starts to talk about her and how unhappy she is, we talk most days and she doesn't do it often but yesterday was awful.

My mum struggles to take responsibility for anything in her life, I've been blamed for all sorts. As a mum now myself I know this isn't right. No matter how much I read or talk to people i cant help questioning though. I really struggle with the conflict between what I know and what I'm told.

@AttilaTheMeerkat, thank you firthereply. she said that she may not hurt me again and I wont know unless I try. That she is different to me and isnt deliberately doing hurtful things but is doing things to protect me (lying to spare my feelings). That I'm too sensitive and hurt easily.

I know what you're saying re flying monkey but it's too difficult to do so I'm trying to limit the conversation around my mum. She tends to only do it when shes see my mum.

"@AttilaTheMeerkat, thank you firthereply. she said that she may not hurt me again and I wont know unless I try. That she is different to me and isnt deliberately doing hurtful things but is doing things to protect me (lying to spare my feelings). That I'm too sensitive and hurt easily".

Who is "she" in the above, are you referring to your mother or your gran?.

Your last sentence in particular here is often lobbed at by toxic people against their target. A toxic relationship is one based around anger, emotional manipulation, and other negative and hurtful feelings, instead of mutual support.

@AttilaTheMeerkat sorry "she" is my mum. I was writing it's my gran had said it.

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean about that last sentence. Do you mean I'm toxic? I'm actually quite worried that I have narcissistic tendencies and don't want my children to experience what I have or do you mean that the relationship with my gran is toxic or hers with my mum. I suppose all of those relationships are?

Your last sentence in your post was "That I'm too sensitive and hurt easily".

No you're not toxic at all!. Toxic people often lob the "you're too sensitive" charge on their target all too readily. Both your mother and your gran are toxic and they are very similar to each other. Your gran wants to get her daughter off her case so goes along all too willingly with the rubbish your mother feeds her about you.

And if you think you have narcissistic tendencies you likely do not either.

Hello! The lovely @Sicario directed me here from another thread where I've had to go NC with my sister after many years of toxic behaviour. Will read through the thread. Glad to know it isn't just me, but sorry people on here have also had a crap time with family.

Can really relate to being told it's because you're too sensitive etc. In my case, my sister just told people I was neurotic or mentally ill when I disagreed with her or correctly remembered something awful she had done. She just made out I was stark raving mad!

Anyway, I've explicitly told her to leave me alone now after trying to be polite about reducing contact.

Hello @TakeItToTheChorus and welcome to the Stately Homes gang! You will find your tribe here. I certainly did.

@TakeItToTheChorus just wanted to say hello, this thread is really helpful and the people are really knowledgeable.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for your reply, I think I just need to process it all a little. I do appreciate your insights.

Thank you for welcomes