October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@ESGdance - I think you’re spot on with your analysis of the rage ramping up when you dare to go NC. The loss of the scapegoat is unbearable. Who are they going to kick now? Where will they put all their blame and anger? Well, all that shit is still coming your way, but now that they can’t actually see you, it will ramp up into the stuff of legend.

I too have kept silent. There has been no contact from me AT ALL since the day I walked out of my mother’s house 4 years ago. Yet still the poison and vitriol continues.

So it’s same old, same old. All I can say is that it does get easier as the years go by. You’re well out of it.

Here is a perfect example of how the hate and rage will escalate when the scapegoat goes NC....

DH has just received a letter, sent to his office, from my hideous SIL. The letter is so outrageous that he was visibly shaking with upset. In the letter, SIL slags me off from here to kingdom come. Even though she's only met me once. (They're not in the UK.)

Some of the vile accusations can only have come from my toxic sister. SIL also says that "NOBODY KNOWS WHY I CUT CONTACT" which is a real doozy! And the irony of it all is that I cut contact because I was so sick to death of being slagged off. Kind of proves my point, right?

I didn't share our new address with anyone. Hideous SIL tracked down DH's office address, and (just to make sure we know how clever she is) enclosed a copy of his latest company accounts which she had requested from Companies house. Nice, eh? Not stalkerish at all.

AND she had printed off my entire website and enclosed that too.

What the fuck?????

I have never been so tempted to send her a piece of my mind but I won't. Wild horses won't get me to contact any of these fuckers ever again. She is the most awful woman I have ever met in my life. She has also sent dick picks to one of my daughters because that's her sense of humour level and she thinks it's hilarious. I mean, really?

So I guess the takeaway from this is that the FOO will never stop blaming and slagging off the scapegoat.

I am going to have some wine now.

Enjoy your wine @Sicario. What you're describing is sheer batshit insanity. Sending dic pics to a kid is sexually abusive, too (as I'm sure you're well aware).

One learning from these threads and elsewhere is the idea of it being a system you're getting out of, not just going NC with a person. There might only be one really toxic lunatic at the centre of it all, but everyone has a part to play. That's why losing the scapegoat is so destabilising, the entire system depends on all its parts working together. And with no outlet, the steam builds up.

With my mum, I now see that the violent episodes happened not when I talked back or disagreed or got upset, it was when I said I was going to leave or otherwise remove myself from the situation. They can deal with someone acting up while staying in their assigned role, but not with them opting out.

Fortunately my kids are adults, but still, sending dick pics? She has sent other weird stuff in the post before we moved. Some people just won't take the hint. (ie: fuck off you hideous troll)

@TirisfalPumpkin - you're right about "staying in your lane" with family dynamics. Walking away is beyond the pale. Yet it's not that uncommon judging by this thread. And we all know that there will be a whole heap of other people who wish they could do NC but dare not take that step.

@Sicario similar crazy shit endured here.

Mad emails sent in the middle of the night on my birthday covered in bombs.

Again a narrative to others that I have just abandoned the family and they don’t know why.

When I did reach out (a year in) I was blocked but the perpetrator hasn’t told anyone that - just keeping themselves in the victim mode.

As I have been silent for 2 years so not giving them any content I am intrigued to how they can keep spinning to same story to themselves with no updates.

@TirisfalPumpkin - it’s good to see it as a system - they all swirl around the central perpetrator and actively feed the dynamic.

I have a family event coming up where I will have to be amongst them all and I will continue with the polite indifference but as they are all problematic drinkers I suspect it will get messy - I joked that I will need a stab vest and will take a change of clothes as I expect a glass of wine over me.

I am worried because I know she has conducted 2 years of obsessive smearing but I just have to remember that the extended family can choose to judge me on my actions over decades and ignore the ramblings of a well known drunk. We both have our reputations to fall back on.

ESGdance

re your comment:-
"I have a family event coming up where I will have to be amongst them all"

Why are you at all considering going to this family event?. What purpose would it serve you?. I would implore you not to attend as no family event is ever worth attending in toxic and otherwise dysfunctional families. Do something else and for you instead; not for those batshit drunkard harridians.

NC is precisely that; nothing from you at all. Zip, zero, nada as Jesse James says. Meeting up again with them will do you no favours at all as well as breaking your current no contact stance; you'll be back at square one. Please do not do that to yourself, you are worth so much more than them.

You know what is true and what isn’t, which is way more than the person on the other side knows. Again, in the short run, this will be of small comfort but worth it in the long run.

@TirisfalPumpkin god knows with the Hag’s hair. I’ve spotted it as a way she can see MM. Which is fine (kind of) as I’ve ducked out of dealing with her. Hope you’re OK. X you are so right about the dynamics. It’s like a flipping bad film where everyone has their role. Awful people.

@ESGdance

@MrsBaublesDylan EVEN BETTER NAME. Your experience of financial abuse is horrific. That’s pure and simple abuse. I’m dim today but were your parents who left you on your own when you were a child HOME ALONE. Too mean to get a babysitter? Even if that wasn’t you - financial abuse is HORRIBLE.

@Sicario Jesus H Christ. That’s APPALLING. Absolute bastards. I’m so disgusted by the dick pics. A criminal offence, I believe. Probably best not to respond but sooooo tempting to go to the police - I know they’re in another country. How absolutely VILE.

@ESGdance they just believe their propaganda, don’t they? When it’s plain to see to any NORMAL person who’s not been sucked in by the mad fuckers that they are the problem. Polite indifference is the way forward. It’s sometimes difficult but so needed. When I was in The Hag’s orbit (toxic MIL) I fought back and challenged her, and to someone who likes a toxic row this was manna from heaven. Keeping out of her way is the way forward.

The family event is nice extended family (cousins) event of people I love and admire. I would not miss out their special day - my lot (5 bitchy drunks) will hopefully be diluted in amongst 40 ish guests. It’s at a public venue rather than a house so I can keep moving away or leave.

I did think about not going but it would insult my cousins and it’s not fair that I am pushed out - although it will likely be a very tense experience.

If anyone has any top tips to ducking and diving at these type of events I would be great-full.

@MonkeyfromManchester - yes I agree they have tried and tried to goad me but I have resisted - I keep the “wrestling with a pig” analogy - ie that they love to fight, and even though you both fall down and both get dirty - the pig actually loves getting dirty - so I wont give them the pleasure.

I will have to stand in my own truth and grace and dignity.

This has never become a fight because I have never retaliated - so it’s still just someone throwing shit in one direction - they are desperate for me to snap so that it becomes a dialogue rather than the unhinged monologue that it currently is.

@MonkeyfromManchester all narcs create a gigantic circus of events to draw everyone in. The bogeymum has the most complicated, multi-layered bedding which required me a visit from me every month.

I am so glad to be free of that!

Yes, I was the home alone child and your right, they were too tight to pay for a sitter or for us to holiday with them.

My younger sister remembered they took her and our younger sibling to America when I was 15, leaving two of us at home. Too expensive apparently 😂

@ESGdance when I want to move easily around a room and avoid people, I practice shutting off my ears and putting a light smile on my face. Just pretend you can't see or hear them. Works wonders!

ESGdance

Do these people not realise anything re your family of origin and you?.

I still would not attend even though it is being held in a public place. It can go sideways very quickly. If you do go however, hope for the best and be fully prepared for the worst.

Yes a couple will know that I have taken myself away from the family (the hosts know this) the others may or may not. They may have a version from the horses mouth or flying monkeys but I will not be engaging or adding any details. I will close any conversation down. “Not the time or the place.” etc.

All will hinge on how shit faced they get - I will be alert to this and ready to calmly up and leave at any point.

@ESGdance The smear campaigns are necessary in order to perpetuate the cycle of blame. Without the constant smearing, people might forget how awful we are, and that would never do. Your statement, ”Again a narrative to others that I have just abandoned the family and they don’t know why.” is exactly what they need to keep the blame where it is.

Toxic people will deny all knowledge of their offences and will reject any sense of responsibility for the outcome.

I stopped going to all family events which was a real shame (missing weddings and such) but I have no intention of ever being in the same room as my toxic sister and her enabler husband ever again. She is incapable of not causing a massive drama.

I know that I couldn’t have done this before now as it was all too raw - had loads of excuses to not to go to things last year - but Covid saved the day.

I have sent a message thru a flying monkey that I will not be hostile - but will be polite as distant.

Please could I ask your advice about this? I’ve searched the internet and can’t find anything similar.

My mother, at social events, photographs everyone and everything. It’s hard to explain how obsessive it is. I don’t think she does it day to day (e.g hundreds of garden pictures).

At a grandchild’s party or similar, she won’t get everyone together for a group shot or take a photo of the cake. She will sit and photo everyone, never asking for permission. This happened again last week. She zooms in and takes photos of faces, random things like the cards and people doing things that just don’t photograph well, like taking a bite of food or sipping a drink.

Last week, I was having a cup of tea and she zoomed the camera in on that and I said quite sharply “don’t take a photo of me like that”. Often we turn away as it’s so intrusive. She doesn’t print the photos out or show them to anyone else. She couldn’t possibly look through them later on, there are too many!

She will also pretend to take a photo but secretly be videoing. I’m not talking anything weird like a grandchild in the bath but just people sitting down. Various relatives have challenged her about that.

After 100+ photos and probably videos taken over the course of an hour last week, she put her phone in her bag and said in a weird, girly voice, “oh, phone away, phone away Barbara, phoney away”. Then started up again within minutes.

Obviously this is not the only way in which she is very difficult but I’ve felt mithered about it in the past and particularly since she did it again last week.

While I’m in full swing and it’s peaceful, I’ll just add that she cuts into conversations with topics totally unconnected. I think this has got worse. She barely pauses for breath, but has always been like that. I cannot drive her anywhere as I can’t concentrate. I’ve driven children around for decades without problems but at least they stop occasionally!

She likes to come out with weird statements that I’m not sure she even believes, like dinosaurs don’t exist. Last week she was making up new terms for BAME people and being really quite anti social about it, after never showing a racist side before.

The awful thing is, recently I have moved from feeling intolerant, to her actually giving me the creeps. I feel that no one else really listens to the content but that I am on edge and “primed” so I notice everything. I don’t suppose anyone else is noticing the hundreds of photos or the silly voices and so on.

@Hen2018 have you talked to other family members about it? I’m not a medical expert, but it sounds like a compulsion. Behaviour change can be a sign of underlying health conditions to her seeing her GP would be a good idea. Talk it over with family, a united front is good on medical issues.

Hen2018

She wants attention and the focus being all on her; it all smacks of narcissism to me. She is capturing you all in unflattering lights and using these to make her feel better about her own self. What if anything do you know about her childhood; that often gives clues.

It may also be that if for instance she drinks too much she's doing that for similar reasons to those above. Whatever the reasons for her being as she is and her motivations behind incessant photos taking I sadly doubt she would be at all open to any form of help. Its not your fault she is like this and you did not make her that way.

She is not going to change; all you can do is change how you react to her. You would not for instance tolerate this behaviour from a friend and some other people would notice how she behaves. They all probably have their own private based suspicions about her and merely tolerate her presence but do not say anything to you directly because you are her daughter.

I would also look at the Out of the FOG website.

Do you have siblings; if so how are they treated?. Where is your dad here; was he at this occasion as well?.

This behaviour has gone on for my life time so it isn’t a sudden decline. She’s really very fit and well and is surprisingly sensible about medical check ups and dealing with any health problems. (Of her own - she steps up a gear and is INCREDIBLY nasty if anyone else is ill).

One sibling is treated the same as me but swings from being upset and frustrated to asking mum to go on days out and making excuses for her. I would never agree to or arrange a day out. I would say mum is disinterested in us, unless on her own terms. I don’t think she knows anything about me. My opinion has never been asked and she has never asked what my feelings are.

My other sibling still lives at home (40) and has all cooking and housework done by mum and dad, goes out with them to social events and on holiday. Everything is paid for by them including clothes.

We all like dad, though he can be a grumpy old man! He spends most of his time in the garden but has no social life of his own. He’s quite good to chat to. If asked, he’ll say mum was always like this and talk about getting the silent treatment for days even before they got married and other behaviours that are clearly “off”. Dad will try to quieten her down and say things like “they don’t need to hear all about this again, Barbara” but it just makes him look unpleasant and mum will then destroy him in a couple of sentences.

There was no alcohol at the party. We don’t serve it at any event where she is present. I stopped drinking 20 years ago as i didn’t want to behave as she does.

I’m very critical of her (in my head, not out loud) so I left thinking about her clothes (mismatched and ridiculous) and her size, hair and behaviour. That’s not how I am with other people at all but then you feel guilty for that. Being unsettled or even scared around her has turned into a real dislike, which also isn’t great.

She always did unsettling things when we were growing up. She would know we had somewhere to be then decide with minutes to go that she couldn’t give us a lift, or she would hide our shoes. If we ever did go out, we would nearly be in tears by the time we got there as we would have to have jumped through so many hoops. Sometimes you would search the house for clothes you liked and find then in the rag bag, not even cut into squares but with one square cut out of them to make them unwearable.

I’ve had years of mental health intervention, none of which has made any difference. I’m just used to it now. My teenager said the other day he thought I was sad at the moment. I asked him if he wasn’t just sad for a day sometimes and he looked perplexed and said “sometimes for 5 minutes” and it reminded me again that most people don’t drag themselves through each day like this.

Hen

Have you ever considered talking to a therapist about both your mother and father here?. I do not think you ever needed MH intervention as much as someone actually listening to, and importantly believing you, as to what your family of origin are like. What happened to you and in turn your siblings is not your fault; its all on your parents.

I would not let your dad off the hook here; he is your mum's enabler and secondary abuser person. He has failed completely to protect you people as his now adult children from her excesses of behaviour. He's had a choice here and he has chosen her and he gets what he wants out of their codependent, abusive and dysfunctional relationship She was abusive towards him before they married too; the silent treatment is an example of emotional abuse.

She probably is quite plausible when it comes to dealing with medical professionals etc because she has the attention focused on her and these types do like to talk only about their own selves. If other people are unwell for whatever reason, attention is focused elsewhere and she would not like it at all (and also their ill health is both longer lasting and far worse than anyone else's; its like a competition to them). My MIL behaves similarly and she is a narcissist. Am not at all surprised either that your other siblings also have challenges. DHs other sibling is now in his 50s and still living at home. He returned some 20years ago now and never left. Their relationship became a dependent one and now he's ended up being her de facto carer.

Ultimately Hen, you're going to have to grieve for the relationship you should have had with both parents here rather than the one you actually got. Get decent therapy and deal with the buttons of fear, obligation and guilt these people installed in you.

If your MH intervention involved something like CBT it would not have even scratched the surface.

I had a few years of treatment. (I had/have ptsd after a spectacularly abusive marriage where I left for a refuge).

On the NHS I’ve seen 2 psychologists and a psych nurse, the later for a year. I’ve also see a private counsellor in between times. We’re talking over 10 years.

The psych nurse was probably the best but one bit of abuse I was talking about made me laugh, because I knew it sounded completely deranged and I was also quite embarrassed. I was told off for laughing and she suggested I was lying,

I’ve not sought any help since, mainly due to poverty but also the pandemic. To be fair to the earlier professionals, I talked a great deal about my ex (he took me to court 30+ times over 8 years) as he was “worse” than my background and parents, particularly at that point in time.

Think you've been let down by the NHS staff here and in any event they really do not have the resources. I certainly would have reported the pysch nurse to her superiors; am sorry you were not believed.

Would seriously consider seeing a therapist privately. I would look at the BACPs website along with that of NAPAC. What happened to you was not your fault in any way; your parents have abjectly let you down. It is they who set the blueprint and they taught you a lot of damaging lessons about relationships.

Unfortunately private isn’t an option as we’re living off UC and an overdraft.