October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Thank you so much monkey. It's like a rollercoaster in the sense that some weeks, like today, it's so blatantly obvious. I guess it's because she's like the ultimate victim. If people, her close family, knew what I truly thought they would think that I was vile....I mean who could say such things about such a poor little woman, someone who loves her kids and grandsons so much.

My dad was clearly a narc, he had antisocial behaviour too so at times he could be classed as psychopathic. At the time the only thing I thought she was guilty of is not protecting us from his rages. She was so meek. But nowadays I can see her for what she is. She has no empathy and it's getting worse with age. I always thought she was a good mum but it was limited because of 'him'. It never occurred to me that she had a choice and actually I think the fact we were terrified of him made us easier to parent.
I have been doing some inner child work so perhaps it's all starting to come out.
When the broke up life became worse, whilst he could be a force to be reckoned with at times I hate to say it but I think he kept a rein on her, which is awful because I'd never condone abuse or control.
I spent so many years investing love, money and resources into my mother because she had such an awful marriage to my father. I felt so bad for her. And yet she has never once even reflected on her part in all this and how our childhood became chaos. When they divorced at 10/11 my mother left and took me but left my sister with him. My sister hated me but I loved her and was so sad especially as I knew she wasn't getting cared for consistently in terms of the basics such as food/ school. My mother was taking a lot of drugs/ started abusing alcohol and a short while after I was doing the same. By the age of 13 I'd been in some pretty dark situations. So whilst my childhood with my father, the occasional psychopath, was pretty unstable on reflection I think things got worse in many ways when he left! Go figure!!

When they divorced she started a new party lifestyle and I was in the way. Not nice, but I've heard of worse things, that's how I saw it then but over the last few years it feels more sinister. I was taken away from all my friends and my home town and forced into a different way of life, seemingly overnight. I was bullied at school and was bullied by all my mum's druggie friends who wanted what she had and didn't want me in the way of their hedonism. Once I entered the lifestyle myself at the tender age of 12/13 I found acceptance. If you can't beat them join them.

I was a very booky sort of kid... I was the weird one in my family. Getting high meant we had something in common. Drinking meant we had something in common. Lowering my standards meant we had something in common. For a long time after the teenage chaos we were "mates". It was only really when I had my boys that something changed. My eldest turned 11 recently, the age that things started to go crazy for me, and I just can not fathom how she could let me down so badly, not forgetting my siblings. I feel sick at the though of my son drinking and being on drugs at any age let alone at the age of 12.

A really good article @MonkeyfromManchester thank you x

zooolife101

That sounds so shit. I'm sorry that was your childhood. Your mother should never ever have put you in that situation, bad marriage or not.

Do you mind me asking what inner child work it is your doing? I completed EMDR last year and am really thinking about starting up some kind of therapy again.
I'm reflecting a lot and really want to protect myself from the toxicity. I turn 40 this year and feel that it's making me think a lot about my childhood and why it was the way it was.

I am determined it's going to be a positive journey for me and I will not slide back into a depression.

Hiya @StrawberryFizz26

I came across "the pathway" from "to be magnetic" via the podcast Expanded by lacy Philips (I think that's what it's called!). They talk about some interest stuff relating to the inner child/ healing/ designing the future you want. After listening to the podcasts for a while I decided to sign up to the membership for a year www.howtomanifest.com/p/the-pathway
Currently I'm doing the blocked inner child workshop in the programme.

The pathway/ to be magnetic is actually like a manifestation support organisation. It's a bit esoteric but has a strong scientific basis with a focus on neural reprogramming. I started it because I can see how I'm in a pattern of attracting the same crap into my life therefore I'm trying to "manifest" a more aligned future for myself.

I've found the workshops quite empowering so far. You do these meditations on the inner child and you kind of create imaginary parents/ experiences and trick your brain into thinking that those are your actual parents/ experiences and, bingo, you're healing your inner child and opening the gateway to manifesting!

Hope that makes sense ;)

I've tried lots of traditional therapy, had EMDR etc, and it's been ok, some better than others, but for me personally I think I've spent a lot of £££ and it's not necessarily been worth it. Some people I've seen were great and some not so much. This is fairly cost effective and it's kinda fun and feels like a good way to go!

@Zoolife101 But nowadays I can see her for what she is. She has no empathy and it's getting worse with age. I always thought she was a good mum but it was limited because of 'him'. It never occurred to me that she had a choice and actually I think the fact we were terrified of him made us easier to parent.

Wow I could have written this myself. My mother is exactly how you describe and I always thought it was because of the effects of living with my father but I have realised now that she is isn’t capable of love or empathy. She used to say to my brother and I “just wait until your father comes home” with glee almost.

Happy new year everyone. I don’t normally make New Years resolutions but this year I have decided that it’s time to put me first in my life. The emotional neglect I have experienced turned me into someone who has kind of drifted through life, feeling empty and sad, not knowing who I am, just wanting to please my mother and be a people pleaser in general. This Christmas I didn’t host my mother, didn’t visit her, or even wish her a merry Christmas. I didn’t give her a Christmas present, or card. I’ve realised that I’ve been stuck trying to win her affection and love but nothing I do will ever work and I’m trying to find peace in this fact.

Yes @Lavanderrose I can relate to that for sure. I don't know about you but what I think had happened with my mother is literally everyone round her tries to protect her. It's like she grew an army of protectors, all willing to defend her poor parenting because we were such difficult kids. I actually think that sometimes I can see guilt in certain family members eyes. I think they ended up having families of their own and they reflected...who knows, maybe I'm giving credit where it is not due.
I myself was probably her number 1 protector for many years of my life. I think having kids was when things started to change....but very gradually to start with, it's taken years to get here.
Are you NC with your mum then lavandar?

Happy new year.
I am new here. I just emailed my dad saying I need space and don't want to meet up for a couple months.

He is a very difficult, lonely person. I have a huge amount of that FOG fear obligation guilt feeling and keep second guessing myself even though I know I am right. He isn't completely awful, he had a really fucked up childhood but his whole life has been about anger self pity and depression and he doesn't seem to see or understand the impact he had on his own kids. Or perhaps he does but it is too much to admit to himself.

We cant fix his sad childhood and depression for him, and I am really angry that my sibs and I felt unsafe and cared for as kids. He didnt do much work to break the cycle and reflect on things. He's made me feel responsible for his life being sad. When i've gone through years of pain and depression myself that he knows almost nothing about.

But I also know it does me active harm waiting to see what boundaries he and his wife want to push on next.

I need to keep him and his wife away from my daughter.

Just need some reassurance from some strangers who get it without needing all the details.

Madamceladon

Welcome to the Stately Home.

If he replies to your email (which he will likely do with both bile and spite added) do not respond further. Further replying is communication and keeps a door open that should now remain closed. These types of people also want a response and that to them is the reward; they know they have you then. They like nothing more than a fight and or the last word and any further emails just invites more crap from dad and his enabler wife into your life.

Its not your fault he is like this and you did not make him that way. He has never sought nor even perhaps even wanted to seek the necessary help. Instead he did to you people as children what was done to him in his own childhood. The cycle of abuse has thankfully stopped with you because you do not treat your DD in the same shitty ways you were. You have insight and empathy; two qualities your dad (and I daresay his wife too) lack.

If these people are indeed too difficult/toxic/batshit for YOU to deal with its the SAME deal for your child too. Keep them indeed well away from your DD.

If you haven't already considered it I would urge you to find a BACP registered therapist to work with. These people are like shoes so finding one who fits with you is very important, interview these people carefully and at length before choosing any particular one.

Out of the Fog is also a very good website to look at. You may also want to read, "Recovery of your inner child" by Lucia Capacchione

@madamceladon totally echo what @AttilaTheMeerkat says. Your dad’s childhood is NOT your fault.

I see that with my mother in law aka The Hag. She had a terrible childhood - poverty, domestic violence, emotional abuse - and chose to dole this out to her sons. Her siblings didn’t perpetuate the abuse - they had happy and emotionally lives and children.

As a society, we are probably more emotionally literate than in the past, however, many older people who experienced terrible childhoods have chosen very deliberately to lead better lives.

Good morning and happy new year to you all.
I haven't seen my family since the October mid term. Not one ounce of contact with either my parents or siblings.
It came from nothing. My dm walked out as she left my nieces and nephews here and went shopping (that's usually fine but I hadn't planned on it that day as it wasn't my siblings weekend for contact but my dm collects them anyway as she's lonely and also maintains they wouldnt be washed or fed only for them)

But dh planned to take our kids to his family. She came late so it delayed him bringing them. Then she went off shopping and came back and wanted more tea (making spiteful comments about sister in law and my cousin and several others)

So two hours later dh takes our dc off. I took out the laptop to start a bit of work (had made her tea and she was sitting moaning)

She stormed off with nieces and nephews. Never to contact me again.

The longer version is she never praised me once- ever.
Picks out my flaws. Has done since I was a young child.. she spoilt every special occasion of mine.. hen (she went to A&E and miraculously recovered to make it back for the meal) wedding speech- my father talked more about her best friends 50th. Graduation- she took pains and dad had to take her out of the hall.

They said I would be too much hard work to marry. Mum used to say I was boring. She would often tell me her friends daughters told them I was boring
My siblings (brothers) said I don't get involved as I went off to university. Parents never supported me. So I never came home in the summer (first one I did and she screamed I was using her house like a hotel)

They like to tell me I have mental health issues (I.e I'm nuts. A bitch) I'm quieter and more reserved. They like to fight.

I don't want to be no contact. Its humiliating that no one wants me.

Years ago used to scrub the house clean. I was a dogsbody really. Used to walk around on eggshells trying to please them. Now I don't. I had two babies close together and two jobs.

She sits watching films and called for me to clean the house. Then I said no as she said not to bring the kids. So who was going to mind them? It's all about controlling me and using me. But its punishment not to talk to me at all. I won't contact them as I will get abuse

Pegassusnail

flowers

Its not you, its them. People pleasing behaviours often start off from trying to parent please. Attempts to parent please them are always doomed to failure. Such disordered of thinking people like your parents are not and have never been happy or emotionally healthy and so are more than happy to use you as the scapegoat for all their inherent ills.

If anyone should feel humiliated here, it is they and not you. Those feelings are truly misplaced.

You are very much wanted and loved by your own family unit consisting of your DH and children. You need radiators in your life, not drains.

@AttilaTheMeerkat is so right about the lack of insight - my mother can't understand why neither myself or my two brothers have had children of our own. She was so angry and bitter about her own childhood (still is) that she never should have had children herself - her and my father were terrible selfish parents. She's 80 and blames everything that has gone wrong in her adult life on having had children. A lovely thing to repeatedly tell your children...

@Pegasussnail The feeling of not being wanted, I know well. I'm so happy that Christmas and New Year is over, I find during that time those feelings are amplified a 100%.

Thank You atila and noir

My dc and dh are very sweet. Dh doesn't like them much (my father went at him one night when he stuck up for me and he knows my mother was behind him)
My nice mother in law always asks how are my lovely parents
Ds says I am the best mummy he ever could ask for. That is what I live for.

Im gearing up for 2022 no contact with my parents & brother. I posted as anfiadhrua and got such great and wise support.

Really came around to facing that i need to give up. I had kept on trying to be heard. I wont be heard. That's it so. Im not being summons back to heel to play the part of daughter, pretending they havent hurt me.

As a single person though, i do sometimes feel that I've really isolated myself. I have some good friends but they all have husbands parents, siblings. I dont want to be looking for too much from any of them. I am on my own a lot these days. Apart from work. But i cannot cope with my parents. Their our perspective is fact and yours is mental illness stance is just so invalidating. If thats all they have to offer, i have to stay away from them. My brother is 50 soon. I wonder if he will reach out? Or if i will. He really hurt me.

Hi NearlyAHoarder

I would not at all reach out to your brother if he hurt you as that sets you up potentially for being further hurt all over again. He has also not reached out to you; the likelihood is he has not at all changed.

Indeed stay away from people who demean you and otherwise put you down. You need radiators in your life, not drains.

I am NC with my mother and siblings. My DF died some years ago. I think he was the only reason I maintained contact.

My mother was hyper-critical and violent since my earliest memories. I was regularly beaten, often with a stick. Once I was beaten so badly that when my dad found me in a cupboard I was covered in blood. I left home at 17 after leaving school at 16 and working for a year to save money to move out.

With hindsight, as I get older, it seems ever-more shocking. I was a highly intelligent child, given absolutely no opportunities to thrive or reach my potential. (I did this later on my own.)

Why I continued to try and build a relationship with an abusive mother I really don't know, although I now understand that it is very common and tied up in FOG and childhood conditioning.

I threw in the towel 4 years ago when I realised that my jealous and abusive narc sister was cut from the same cloth as my mother. She had been sabotaging my life for years and I never saw it. Both my brothers are deeply fucked-up and have alcohol problems.

I have never regretted my decision to go NC, although it has been very hard. It gets easier as time goes by, but that childhood conditioning is very strong and hard to undo.

A big shoutout to everybody here:

IT'S NOT YOU - IT'S THEM

YOU MATTER - YOUR VOICE IS LOUD AND CLEAR AND WE HEAR YOU

YOUR LIFE BELONGS TO YOU - YOU HAVE AGENCY OVER YOUR CHOICES

thanks so much for the replies @AttilaTheMeerkat and @MonkeyfromManchester

It is a messed up catch 22: because I have had a rough childhood I have lots of empathy for people in pain. my dad is in pain so I feel bad about telling him to leave me alone. but I am in pain because of his actions in my own childhood.

He's actually replied with a one word 'OK'. which is fine by me I can have some breathing space and feel better. no idea if he is in a rage or depressed or if he understand where I am coming from. it could be a bit of all.

I think I will call him in a few months and see what the response is.

so sad for all the troubled childhoods here and sending lots of love. it is truly jaw dropping what children go through and survive.
I have really enjoyed reading the work and life of maurice sendak, the writer of Where the Wild things are, he had a very difficult childhood too and speaks of how: "Children surviving childhood is my obsessive theme and my life's concern."

he said his mother should never have had children.

news.wfsu.org/2012-05-23/sendaks-legacy-helping-kids-survive-childhood

www.newyorker.com/magazine/1993/09/27/in-the-dumps

@Sicario that is truly awful.

@Sicario I can relate to what you said about the intelligence, you were failed. The things you attained later on were achieved in spite of your upbringing not because of it. I feel like that too.

As my mum is the kindest woman I know I always thought her "don't set your sights too highly" attitude was to protect us. I just had a flashback to my childhood, me and my sister adored singing and the arts. I remember mother telling me to "ahhh stop singing, it's not fair on your sister, you know that shes tone deaf, she'll be so upset if she hears you". I completely stopped singing getting embarrassed, I'm not sure I can blame her for that but..... so as I grew up I turned my attention to dancing, even all the drug and alcohol fuelled chaos I won a small award. I had to beg her to come see me receive it. I was a dancer in a large production and her and all her druggie mates came a laughed at me.... "Aw....it's only because it was.... cute..."

Perhaps this doesn't amount to the extreme abuse some people have experienced but I do wonder if it's why I have achieved a million qualifications (as an adult) but sadly, I know so little about my core self that I still don't know what to do with them!