October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Sicario and @MonkeyfromManchester thank you for your replies. Today has been a bad day, 10 year Ann since my DM died. It's been a slow process but as much as I loved her, I know she enabled and excused a lot of shit my dad did to me, and when I think about some of things she did, they too were quite toxic. I have had the guilt cloud hanging over me for so long, trying to make dad feel proud of me. I now know that will never happen. I stupidly thought it was just me he was bad to, and I feel terrible for allowing my DD the alone in his presence. That is why I believe her, I know she's telling the truth, aside that she doesn't lie, it happened to me. I've let her down for it to happen, so I am all out going to protect her, and my other children now.

@Iamtheweedonkey I’m sorry it’s been such a difficult day. Don’t blame yourself, there is such an emphasis on children getting to know their grandparents and because we see their behaviour only towards us and not towards others we think it might apply to children (speculating a little here). It is great for her to have someone in her corner, close to her, that believes her though. You can give her so much of a better future than you had to go through with him as your parent.

@Iamtheweedonkey it’s so hard to have those revelations. You are clearly a very caring mum who will do anything for her children and that includes not sweeping things under the carpet and not enabling toxic behaviour. Be very proud of yourself.

@CecileDeRetour I’m so sorry things are hard for you. Hugs.

The Fucking Hag

So, Mr Monkey has got the Hag and a PCR test. She tested negative for Covid with a lateral flow. She has a cold, it’s just a cold, but Mr Monkey is very belt and braces so Yesterday we drive the 30 minutes in the shocking rain on the motorway to her lair.

Mummy Monkey and I go to Tesco to buy yet more wine.

Mummy Monkey had put stepladders in the car as she had bought Hag a wall clock for Xmas so my mum thought she’d put it up. Hag loved this on her arrival at Mummy Towers on Xmas Day “oh yes, it will look lovely on my wall”.

By Boxing Day, she made excuses about not wanting it put up. It’s not like she was getting up a stepladder. If only…

This spite was purely connected to her being sent back to her lair on Boxing Day.

I could tell my mum was hurt.

So, whilst Mr Monkey is in the Hag’s flat he gets the Poor Hag Act.

This is when it’s the Oscar worthy whimpering voice and not making eye contact with him act which is supposed to elicit pity and/or guilt.

The litany was I’m all alone, I don’t see anyone, no one rings me and the corker of…

“I didn’t have a very good Christmas.”

So, there we have it, ladies and gentlemen, after ramping up shit about Christmas from SEPTEMBER onwards and doing everything she could possibly do to wreck Christmas for everyone else with endless drama, scenes and spite, she didn’t enjoy Christmas.

What she’s actually not enjoying is having a son who has found Monkey and a life of his own and normalcy with Monkey’s family. She’s also not enjoying the fact that she’s not been able to bully him into staying in Manchester or to guilt trip everyone so she stays with us in the countryside for a week.

He ignores it.

She tries the second tactic of rage. He ignores it.

So, then it’s back to the pity party.

“When will I see you again, son?”

Mr Monkey gets into the car and repeats the conversation. I can see how pissed off my mum is.

Absolutely fuck off and die. I am so angry with the witch for the Xmas remark (not remotely surprised) as that’s throwing things back in peoples’s faces and just fucking RUDE. SOOOO tempted to phone her and tear a fucking shred off her but that’s what she wants. She really wants to stir things up.

I aim not to see her at all in 2022.

I’ve got a stomach upset which I’m pretty sure is triggered by stress (or to be fair, a fair bit of wine at Mummy Monkey’s - lol) so I’m seeing NYE in with a film and water.

Thought lush Lebanese take away at lunch might sort it out. Mummy Monkey and I drive to the nearest town to pick it up. We leave Mr Monkey to phone The Hag.

We get back and he’s looking worried/pissed off.

How was it?
She’s full of a cold. But she went to the supermarket with Slave Son.

Of course, she did. Like she needs to go to the supermarket with a cold.
Sitting in the car giving Slave Son germs.

During lockdown where we could go to supermarkets, I suggested that she get a counter top freezer so she didn’t need to go out and risk her health. To which she hit the fucking roof.

Mr Monkey asks if she’s eaten.

No, I’ve not eaten for two days.

This is guilt inducing. And highly unlikely to be true.

The Carers haven’t been.

I find this hard to believe as she’s phoned if they can’t make a slot.

When I get back, I’m going to check the book they need to sign when they do a call. Before I do it, I’m going to tell her that I’m going to complain about the service.

This will induce ‘I’m going to be found out’ panic. I’m pretty sure this will reveal the truth.

I’m also going to drop the next year Xmas plan into the conversation.

I know you didn’t enjoy Xmas this year as you said so to Mr Monkey so I thought we could do something different…

She’ll be aglow with the news her campaign has succeeded.

So, the plan is we’ll do a meal here.

She’ll be thinking great, mummy monkey isn’t coming and I can go to Mr Monkey’s house where she’s decidedly not welcome.

What we’ll do is invite mummy monkey to ours for Xmas Eve..

Hag crestfallen. The Good Mother / rival will be here.

Then to save me cooking, we can all go out for a Christmas Day lunch at the pub round the corner from you.

1pm and then we need to make sure that we leave at 3pm so mummy monkey isn’t driving home in the dark.

Mind you, Mr Monkey and I won’t worry as we’ll be in the car with her.

Then she can drop us back on the 2nd January…

Fuck off, I’m absolutely sick of her games.

2022 in a couple of hours. I have absolutely no regrets about going NC with my entire FOO.

As the years slide by, it gets easier, and hindsight once out of the fog bears a great deal of clarity. Had I known then what I know now, I would have gone NC as soon as I walked out of that fucked up abusive household aged 17.

So to everyone here in the Stately Homes club, I wish you well for the new year and send strength and solidarity to all those who strive for a better life by cutting out toxic people.

Remember - you don't owe anyone anything, and you are free to make your own choices and live your life as you wish.

Life is way too short to waste it on people who bring you nothing but heartache. Cut them out and never look back. It's worth it.

@MonkeyfromManchester your takeaway sounds sublime. If Slave Son was there, why didn't she eat with him or he fetch her something to eat? I also find it highly implausible that she hadn't eaten for that long. I regularly don't eat for 3-4 days at a time and it makes me very depressed and weak as a kitten, and what's more I will almost always say I HAVE eaten. I'm not entirely clear on the details of your cunning plan as I'm absolutely cross-eyed with lack of sleep and pain relief from the hospital but it does sound like it's going to drive her up the wall, so well played.

Back from the hospital now. My dad did not even wait until we had left the grounds (there were a lot of shenanigans with my mum texting and phoning about my release time/date and picking me up) to tell me that I had been lying. Not just lying, but hallucinating.

Of course this has triggered the usual storm of self-doubt, self-blame, self-incrimination, guilt and shame. The thing is, though, I know for a fact I wasn't drunk enough to hallucinate. I didn't even withdraw. And for one of the things - my mum coming into my room to take a photograph and then leaving when my lung was punctured - my dad said he knew for a fact that it wasn't as I had said because he had been there. I said "you were upstairs" (my room is downstairs where the garage used to be). He said "yes, so I was there". Now, my dad has alleged before that he knows things haven't happened when in fact he was abroad for periods of weeks or months at the time I was talking about. I was, of course, intoxicated, and I can't deny that I blacked out and can't remember the details of conversations that happened. But when that thing happened with my mum I was totally sober, in agony, and my dad was not in the same room, but he is telling me that he knows better what happened. This is full-on scary to me. My memory is not bad - I tend to be the one who remembers trivial details or conversations and you need a good memory for a law degree. There are also holes in his reasoning - he said I needed to live here so that they could call for help at the last minute but I called an ambulance 24 hours after my lung was punctured. Not them. He complained about me doing it without telling them (although he did come into the room to tell me what a burden I was on the NHS, which I already know). What also didn't help was a woman in the hospital shouting at me that I was attention seeking, she knew what I was doing, she heard me crying to the doctor (psychiatric and IDVA consults are behind a curtain, not in a private room) and then she saw me chatting to another patient who was in severe pain trying to cheer us both up. She said I knew exactly what I was doing and I had latched on to that patient, but I was just attention seeking.

To be fair, my dad was right. I do always deny having had a drink and I do always deny not having eaten. But I don't think they have respected my boundaries at all. I don't think my memories are totally false. I'm just scared now that I have been spinning a story and deceiving myself and the hospital staff the whole time. Sorry I've been posting so much.

@Sicario very wise words. I’m glad you’ve found your place of peace. This forum has been a total lifeline for the past two years. Happy New Year to you.

@CecileDeRetour thank you. My late dad used to say two things - don’t fuck with a fucker and never start a fight but always finish it. You’re not posting too much, you need support which you will get here. Hugs to you. Xxx

FFS.

So, The Hag phones this morning ostensibly to wish us Happy New Year.

There’s the moaning about the cold. Her enquiry about whether her PCR is positive - you know, the test she kicked off about taking. She would milk it for all that it was worth if it was positive.

She has eaten today. This is established by Mr Monkey as she is eating when talking on the phone. Her etiquette knows no bounds.

Apparently, The Carers haven't been today. I don't have the number to check, but I'm going to GET the number to check. MM tells her this. Sudden anxiety from her about us not phoning the agency about this. MM tells her he’s going to monitor the book they fill in after each visit to keep a closer eye. He’s not going to be doing it regularly, but I’ll be keeping notes on what she says vs. the evidence.

Sudden admission that she might have told them that she’d be away all over Xmas week. Hmmmm...she wasn’t, at ANY point, invited to Mummy Monkey Towers for more than one night on Xmas Day and VERY much going home on Boxing Day.

All along, since fucking SEPTEMBER, she's tried to bully her way into staying here for the entire week, which explains the false drama of her falling to her knees on Xmas Day in comedy and totally fabricated manner, so we would / should have gone, “poor Hag, you poor fragile thing, do stay longer so you can ruin our Xmas entirely”. Plus her incredible confidence in her manipulation working.

Not altogether sure whether she’d mentioned the non-attendance of said Carers to Slave Son. He didn't mention it today. Oddly enough. You’d think she’d flag it to him in one of her phone calls...

Total and utter manipulation. MM needs to opens his eyes to some of this, although he spotted the “fall”.

The Carers not coming now and again is a common trope and consistently associated with her wanting the pity party with MM. She always kicks off when we say we’ll ring the agency. How peculiar.

@MonkeyfromManchester - is MM aware that he doesn't have to see his mother on Christmas day? Or any other day? I really would draw a line under all this now and never let her intrude on another Christmas. Certainly not for you and your mum. And if MM can't bear to say no to her, then he's on his own.

Sure, he'll feel guilty about it at first, but that too will pass.

@CecileDeRetour - I hope that this year will be better to you, and that you find the strength, resolve and professional help to tackle your alcohol dependency. Drinking just makes everything worse. It also gives people an excuse/reason to blame you for whatever other issues you have. My heart goes out to you.

@Sicario just watching The Tourist with Mummy Monkey and she said something she’d never said before : she’s trying to break you up. Thinking I’m going to keep my powder dry. However I will get Mr Monkey to get the number of the care agency himself…Hag will rue the Fucking day.

@Sicario you are so right, and I have had professional help with the drinking and my other issues - to the point that when I was last in hospital I was reminding the lead therapist of the DBT acronyms! I feel even more guilty that I’ve had that much help and am still this fucked up. The thing is though, when I’ve been in the mental hospital (two stints so far) I am as good as gold. In one, everyone else was drinking to the point that someone was hospitalised for it an another literally lined her whole room with the empty bottles. I didn’t touch a drop. In the most recent one I was elected group leader by the other patients. Even the thought of alcohol made me feel sick. Within six hours of getting back here I was paralytic again. I recently read something which made quite a lot of sense, which is that addictions are a displacement activity when you feel helpless. I do feel it’s the only way to escape, and at this point it’s also a slow suicide.

@MonkeyfromManchester I approve of your proactive approach! The one thing I would say though is that my experience with my narcissist and enablers is that it doesn’t make a huge amount of difference whether you know the facts on the ground or not (I know you are more mature and wise than I am so I hope this isn’t patronising!) A couple of years ago Andrea Leadsom was asked to comment on someone in the government being called a liar or a bully, I think. Her response was “it’s just words, from a person”. I think that completely encapsulates the experience of dealing with a narcissist. I’ve only very recently realised that nothing my mother says is true, at all. She invents things out of whole cloth, she spins, she minimises, she justifies falsely. I find it really hard to get my head around as when I lie it tends to be a sort of “have you eaten?” “Yes” lie. But reading what you’ve written I don’t think the Hag will rue the day. She clearly has no shame at all and I think she’ll just lie to you and herself and carry on as per.

@Sicario absolutely re not seeing her. I think he’s decided Xmas exposure needs to be limited. The two hour lunch will suffice. None of us are going through that shit again. My mum absolutely grasped what was/has been going on e.g. splitting us up. It was good to have that verified by her as she’s very sensible and astute.

Hag phoned this morning. Yes, the Carer had been round so no need for Mr Monkey to put her fucking eye drops in. She shouted at the carer - how lovely of her. She then moaned that she hasn’t enjoyed Xmas or New Year. Apparently, it had been miserable. How grateful of her for Xmas Day. She didn’t thank my mum.

You’re right, @CecileDeRetour EVERYTHING that comes out of a narc’s mouth is lies or manipulation. The only thing that the Hag is embarrassment when she’s found out. Irish Catholic shame thing. Not about embarrassment over her lies but the shame of discovery. Especially if I dump her in it with the care company about her lying about the Carers just not ‘turning up’ for two days. Mr Monkey, my mum and I are of the opinion that she told them not to come as she reckoned she’d be seeing the New Year in with us. Well, not actually the chimes of midnight, as she’d do what she did in Xmas Day night E.g. decide her bedroom was the sofa in the living room and go to bed at 7pm completely inconveniencing the rest of us. NO sense of other people. I think she had every intention of manipulating us into a week’s holiday at my mum’s, being fucking rude and stirring things up. She’s not had much access to me this year so not being able to pick at me for a whole week must have really pissed her off.

Anyway, Xmas is done (and was lovely once she’d fucked off back to her lair) and here’s to 2022 where I will see even less of her. Need to keep Mr Monkey focused.

Today I went to my mum's final resting place, my dad refused to have her ashes scattered or placed anywhere, apart from his sideboard for 10 years, I have refused his 'oh you can pop over and speak to mum whenever you want', I know it was all about control, this has hardened me to mum being gone, made things more difficult to accept. So all of a sudden in October he decided she had to have her ashes buried, I couldn't make the date, he couldn't/wouldn't alter it, so today is the first day that I've gone there. I feel so sad that all this time she hasn't been laid to rest, I placed flowers and sent him a photo. I have now got a text 'I hoped you would have popped in'. He had the choice of two churches, one she only went to once in n her life, had no meaning to, or the one where I was baptised, married, two children baptised and her funeral. He chose the one with no meaning, to get there you literally drive passed his house. Control again!

Iamtheweedonkey

Indeed it is control from your dad.

Would cease all contact with him because having any contact at all does you no good. Communicating with him at all is a response and to such people that is the reward, they know they have you then.

Monkey

Would not bother with a two hour lunch for her at Christmas. I would concur with Sicario in that you draw a line under all this now and never let her intrude on another Christmas. Certainly not for you and your mum. And if MM can't bear to say no to her, then he's on his own.

Mr Monkey needs therapy as much as anything else; she still has him in her grasp dancing attendance. He's had a lifetime of this shit from her and such conditioning is hard to undo.

@Iamtheweedonkey that’s so awful. I’m so sorry. Xxx

@AttilaTheMeerkat I can’t do that to him. I understand how incredibly hard he finds this and I agree it’s time for him to really commit to therapy. This is undoing years and years of abuse, as you say.

I also don’t want her thinking - in her sick head - that she’s won. My mum loves my partner to bits, he’s like the mum he never had and I don’t want to deprive him/mum/me of decent family time. I’m going to save up news of the two hour Xmas lunch to nearer the time.

I’m going to continue to back MM to the hilt, but I won’t be seeing her this year.

sicario what is FOO?

I kicked my brother out on NYE. DP took him back to my hometown and after he'd been dropped off my sister called me, kicking off "were you not going to ring me and tell me you'd kicked him out" I watsapped you and you never answer the phone plus I didn't know where DP was going to drop him off. She then started to scream down the phone at me and dared to try and tell me I'd treated him like shit the whole time he'd been here. I told her I loved her too & put the phone down.

Fuck right off, I gave up peaceful Christmas with DP because he got kicked out of his accommodation. I was nice and pleasant and he saw his arse cos the night before he was up till gone midnight shouting out loud at the TV and I told him to keep it down. He then had the nerve to tell me that the way I'd spoken to him was disgusting, he was sick of hearing it was my house and he'd fed my animals and washed the dishes!!!! I didn't need you to do any of that and fuck you, it's the least you can do when you've been here for a week rent fucking free.

As for my sister, she's one on her own but how dare she just believe the lies he's told when she's not even been here and the only reason I had him here was so she didn't have too.

I am so done with them. My brother will never ever ever stay at my house ever again and my sister can also do one. I'll no doubt speak to her because I don't not want to see my nephew's but she's so fucking angry and horrible. I know I can have traits of my father but I fully acknowledge, own and try my hardest not to be like him.
To have it thrown back in my fave is a shitter. No doubt the only reason my brother kicked off was cos he wanted a drink on NYE and it was not happening at my house.

Thank god again for DP cos I don't have a car, my mum couldn't come and get him and he refused to pay for the train back and if DP hadn't taken him back, I can guarantee he'd have gone and got bladdered and then back here kicking off, no way was he walking 40 miles back.

It won't take long for him & my sister to come to blows either & they are welcome to each other.

I'm so over the fucking lot of them. I don't deserve to be treated or spoken to in that way and I refuse to accept it.

StrawberryFizz

FOO is family of origin.

May 2022 be a more peaceful year for us all.

Monkey - your man needs you now (and in turn your mother) more than ever in that he absolutely needs to see what emotionally healthy family is like, its a very painful realisation for him even though he knows his mother is utterly toxic.

@StrawberryFizz26 - FOO is Family Of Origin (in other words - the shit show family we were born into).

@StrawberryFizz26 what a nightmare. We saw your trepidation before Xmas but, I guess, like many of us here we are optimistic that the Toxics in our lives WON’T revert to type. But they do. Wit my Xmas with The Hag. I hope you are OK.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you. You are totally right.

It’s really painful as he is now letting out what he feels. He’s pretty much been open all along about he feels about golden child middle brother. Over the last few years he’s been able to articulate what he feels about The Hag. Increasingly, he’s seeing Slave Brother as bullied rather than ‘hero’ in his dealings with Hag. But also that Slave needs to gets a grip. The very bullied youngest child (MM) is the most emotionally literate and kind one out of the lot of them.

FOO. Family of (h) orror. Silent H.

Has anyone got any experience of vulnerable/ covert narcissism please? (Sorry they may not be the same thing I've watched and read such a lot I'm going a bit crazy!) For a good 18 months I've been reluctant to label anyone in my FOO whilst fully embracing the fact I have a really dysfunctional one! I'd really like to learn more.

Do you think these could be examples of non-grandiose narcissim? I had an argument with my mum today which culminated in her swearing at me and hanging up (for the record we never argue. But today something changed. I couldn't not retaliate)

Here are some recent examples;

"Sorry about your Xmas presents, I promise I'll do better next year" said more than once, this happens with every gift giving scenario ( when she bothers that is....there have been plenty of times when I haven't so much has had a birthday card or gift as a teenager/ young adult and yet I would be hassled to remember all her family birthdays.....eg "don't forget auntie Eugenie's birthday card" and I'm like "seriously, pot/kettle/black...) It feels very guilt inducing. I've never expected anything of my mother so go out of my way to show her how it's fine/ don't be silly/ there lovely etc... But over the last few years I feel really uncomfortable by her gift giving. It's weird.

Another one is my FOO all tell me how absolutely amazing mum thinks I am. Again, this leaves me uncomfortable because it doesn't really marry my experience of her.

"Your mum couldn't hurt a fly, she's the kindest woman we know etc etc" so when she has called me "fat, greedy, big, difficult, awkward etc" it's always been in "jest" and yet it feels far from funny.

She doesn't look after her grandsons much, but she did occasionally, but I've never relied on her for anything. There have been two times in the last few years she has literally pleaded with me to cut our nursery hours so she can be more involved and watch our sons once a week whilst we work. Both times I politely ignored her until I caved in and then both times, after the arrangements have been made she has, basically, been unable to keep her promise. The first time it was "a sudden onset of severe stress and depression" the 2nd time "a new job".
Let me be clear..... I was going to be paying her the going rate that I would be paying our nursery. I, of course, was devastated but have never guilt tripped her over it. I almost feel like she wants me to kick off so she can tell the rest of the family how bad I've made her feel.

Untill maybe a year or two ago she would tell me how I was her favourite and how my boys were her favourite grandsons. I ended up telling her not to say something so silly because it could really hurt my sister and her other grandsons. I hate favouritism. Now I am clearly no longer her favourite! My other sister is. I've noticed the sibling that does the most for her becomes the favourite. She knows I couldn't give a flying f! I'm happy not being the fav!

My own behaviour might help....I have basically hidden the fact I'm training to be a yoga teacher since last spring! I know, i know it's ridiculous but I can deal with the "Why would you do that? Aren't your kids enough? What a waste of money? Your so fickle?! But what happened to wanting to be a X,Y,Z" Comments that would be all dressed up as jest of course!

I'd really really appreciate some things I could read that are a bit more specific to her behaviours. I've read a lot but I don't know....I end up doubting myself.

Hi @Zoolife101

Take a look at this link. It’s a bit harsh to see the words narcissist, sociopath and even psychopath written in it. Some of the behaviours you talk about in connection with your mum will chime with what you see here.

The thing with these behaviours is that it’s all very insidious and hard to put your finger on. My suggestion is read it, but don’t try and engage in a conversation about it all with her. She’ll realise she’s been ‘found out’ and switch tactics. Also, for your sanity it’s not worth it.

thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/

Keep talking here. We have lots of experience and give lots of support to each other. Xxx