October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@Zoolife101 - you're a bit younger than me. I'm late 50s.

I guess that when we're children, we don't have the knowledge or language to understand or express what's happening to us. I know that I stopped speaking, and developed a crippling stammer.

Parents seem to forget that kids grow into adults and that we remember this stuff. It marks us for life. Their deep-seated denial seems common to all our stories. Our memories are denied, our experiences minimised.

When my Dad was dying, I was at his hospital bedside constantly. He seemed very pained one day and asked me, "did you have a happy childhood?" I lied and said "yes". He knew very well that this wasn't true, but I think it was far too painful for him to think back to the hideous relationship I had with my mother. He knew she was abusive and out of control.

Abuse comes in many forms. We see the whole spectrum here on the Stately Homes thread. They are all just as damaging.

@Lavanderrose brilliant NY resolution. I think as damaged by toxic behaviour children we are programmed NOT to put ourselves first because parents/families never prioritised their children/siblings. My problem is my Toxic MIL aka the Hag. I see the impact of her toxicity on my partner EVERY day. Brilliant piece on Radio 4’s Woman’s Hour this morning about resolutions and the idea of putting ourselves first. Flipping the must not do something to I am doing this because x, y, z. Not articulating it very well but it’s worth a listen.

@Pegasussnail it’s your family, NOT you. They are going out of their way to hurt you. That’s wrong. Concentrate on your great DH & DC & friends. Big hugs. This is a hard time of year. We are all here for you.

@noirchatsdeux aaaaaagh. All the people here cannot imagine being that bitter. We’ve taken steps to heal or begin healing. The toxics are a bunch of bitter toxic people.

@NearlyAHoarder good for you. Really, really good for you. Hugs.

@Sicario yours is such a grim story and you speak such wise words.

@madamceladon hugs to you. So many damaged children become people pleasers, I really see it in Mr Monkey in the whole of his life. He hates conflict. Conflict/assertiveness would have triggered a real beating by his abusive mother. Going to read those articles.

Hag update. Got back from my mum’s so she phoned. I think this was to check that we WERE back.

“Did Monkey’s mum stay on Sunday night?”

She is INCREDIBLY jealous of my mum.

A week ago she screamed at my partner “I was a good mother, you know”. I know she knows how Mr Monkey finds my family 100% normal - warm, kind - and that he spends much more time with us. I know how very lucky I am with my FOO.

She’s trying to dig her claws in - going on about disabled Slave Son not “managing”. I think 1) why have him take you to the supermarket 3 times a week & especially WHY when you had a cold and waiting for a PCR test result when he’s clinically vulnerable 2) manipulating MM to take on those chores (NO Fucking way) 3) using Slave Son’s disability selectively makes me truly sick.

Apparently her cold is flu. I’ve had flu twice in my life and I was in bed for two weeks. It’s just attention seeking bollocks.

I’ve just realised why she’d prefer Mr Monkey to work at home all the time, we’re round the corner and MM has some flexible working. I’ll be pointing that out. We are not substituting for Slave Son.

Currently I’m trying to steer him to find a counsellor. He had a crisis in the autumn but didn’t follow it up. I told him that counselling can also about developing coping strategies (my level 2 in counselling talking!) as well as talking about the past. The coping mechanism is going to be even more important as she’s going to play some major games this year. I’d love counselling to tell him to bin her, but person centred counselling isn’t so directive and he needs to work it out himself. I will always support him, but I won’t let him make stupid decisions.

The way he deals with her is so much better. He ‘gets’ the games.

Hopefully, the Hag’s premonition of ‘I think this will be my last Christmas’ - used purely to manipulate me as she was whispering it whilst clutching my hand - comes true.

Stupid decisions about being more wrapped up in her vile life, for clarification!

@Sicario the death bed stuff - I am anticipating pretty similar and not looking forward to my dad ageing. I get it. I mean what are you supposed to say?
That early life training about not speaking up, silencing, brushing things under the carpet is incredibly powerful and hard to break.

I messaged my sis today 'I am so tired of pretending like fucked up things are not fucked up in our family.' and she agreed.

@MonkeyfromManchester
I also understand the fear of comparison with other functional parents being used like a weapon. I definitely downplay time I spend with my mum and ILs to avoid making my dad jealous. My friend with similar dad has had the same.
They will monitor and tot up and act like there is a spreadsheet of time and attention that needs to be balanced.

But its - I spend time with them in this way because I want to. i dont want to do the same with you because we have a different relationship.

@madamceladon I really like the spreadsheet analogy!

The Hag probably has a laptop hidden away despite her being a ‘helpless’ 85 year old.

Absolutely re time. We all spend time with the people who make us happy and validate us as decent people. Which we are!

I have no desire to spend ANY time with the Hag this year. I might go for a quick lunch with Mr Monkey for her birthday (for his sake), but I will decide nearer the time depending on how I feel and her behaviour.

. If I decide to go, I’m not making an effort to arrange anything special, I’m not buying her a present as she ‘commands’ no present and it will only end up in her spare room with all the rest from us.. The only Xmas present that has been gracefully accepted is a pair of slippers from her Neigbour which she pointedly showed us. Presumably, the neighbour does more for her.

I’m SO glad your sister understands. That’s so important. You feel like you’re going nuts without that validation of the truth. The abusers have fantastic ways of twisting family dynamics so people are set against each other and controlled.

@MonkeyfromManchester
Ha. Yes the I'm old and helpless bit so how can you not be nice to me.

I was getting a lot of nasty flak from dad for not being more in touch with my aunt because she is "elderly" - lots of laying it on thick by email about please tell them to contact their poor, elderly aunt.
I mean I've never really had a relationship with her and she lives abroad, she barely knows us . But she's lonely and we were supposed to telepathically know this and get in touch. they seem to have decided we are bad kids for not being regularly in touch with her.

Ffs

Great news everyone! My mother has found the solution to all my life problems. In my position apparently she would feel frustrated and unmotivated by my job and so I should change jobs, maybe change career and then I'll be happy and no longer depressed and drinking. She wants me to go out and volunteer because apparently it helps you to feel positive and motivated and I'll be helping people. The implication that I didn't already know this given the amount of pro bono and volunteering I used to do at work is pretty staggering. Then finally she said "everyone used to think you were kind and helpful, people all loved you so just stop being like this and go back to the way you were before!" So all my problems are solved now. Honestly sometimes I do want to go back to being that utterly miserable, passive little girl who was planning to kill herself when she turned 21 and worked every hour God sent even at school (I once did a project intended for fourteen people by myself, including a double all-nighter). I'm sure I was nicer, kinder and now I'm an alcoholic failure rather than a student with good results or a high-achieving employee starting out. I can see now that I'm just a burden and an embarrassment particularly when you put me next to my beautiful, high-earning sister. But my parents can't see me as a separate person even to the extent that I might have my own opinion about my own job. I am not very ambitious but until lockdown I was in a not-bad job, which I enjoy, where my employers look after me and I enjoy spending time with my colleagues, and where I wanted to spend a few years after a couple of really awful bosses worked me into a breakdown in a toxic work environment. Of course I want to do my job well and eventually progress. Even before I was signed off my parents were always ordering me to seek things like pay rises, telling me my employers were using me, etc. It's kind of a double whammy that they don't seem to have noticed or cared that I've had severe enough mental health issues that people are impressed that I work at all sometimes, and that they don't even consider my job good enough that I would be able to tolerate it. My mum also said she considered my dad totally lacking in empathy and apparently now she's an expert in autism (although she spent a lot of time talking about how well she understands my perspective now and then said a TV series was good because it didn't have "a weird policewoman like that Swedish one" - Saga is written to resemble someone with autism). It's really saddening for me.

Another block of text. I know I just sit here and moan right now. I'm getting more and more depressed each day honestly.

I never consciously planned to go NC. It just happened.

One day I went to see DM, which I never enjoyed. (I visited out of duty, took her out for lunches and shopping, took her away on holidays, did all her admin and finances.) My feelings of dread around seeing her had increased over time, even though I had forgiven her years ago for her abusive behaviour. She was an unhappy resentful parent who should never have had children.

Anyway - so I arrived at her house to find my sister there and her MIL. The way the pair of them looked at me was very telling. My sister looked like she had been caught red-handed - she had been saying terrible things about me again and I had deliberately avoided her for a while.

It was like a lightbulb going off. I thought "what the fuck am I doing here?". My sister and her MIL couldn't get out of there fast enough. My mother got flustered and I said "I'm sick to death of being slagged off" and walked out.

I never went back. Never spoke to any of them since. Not a word. I stopped answering the phone. There was a message from my mother, wailing "where are you?" at some point, but I ignored it.

My sister tried calling and started sending shit in the post. Passive aggressive birthday cards, crappy christmas gifts which I threw in the bin. Then I sold up and moved away without leaving any forwarding address.

Fuck the lot of them.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Hi NearlyAHoarder

I would not at all reach out to your brother if he hurt you as that sets you up potentially for being further hurt all over again. He has also not reached out to you; the likelihood is he has not at all changed.

Indeed stay away from people who demean you and otherwise put you down. You need radiators in your life, not drains.

Thanks @attilaTheMeerkat

A low level backdrop of sadness about how things are is less stressful than trying again and getting hurt again

@Angliski he’s turned round the responsibility to you. This is what they do. It’s called DARVO - deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO

When I first heard about this a light bulb moment occurred re Hag MIL.

Do not feel terrible. You haven’t shortened his life or made him more frail. Your SM is trying to guilt trip. Don’t feel guilty about having raised the issue OR feel bad about what you feel. Abuse is abuse.

Your dad isn’t going to take any responsibility at all.

I’d be tempted to leave contact for a bit and, very sadly, not expect a resolution or him taking responsibility. Concentrate on you and your needs and don’t feel terrible. You did your best as an adult but you’re dealing with children who like to say “it’s not my fault”

Take care. Xx hugs xxx

My attempts to let my family know that they hurt me went equally disastrously. They never acknowledged it in any other way beside how much what I said hurt them. Nearly 2 years on the narrative is still how much I hurt them. How unacceptable it is that I feel entitled to abuse them.

It's been really hard to realise that they feel they own me. I have no right to consider myself hurt. That is an act of aggression perpetrated against them and they are the victims of having hurt me.

I'm not talking about a once off incident either. There was a lot of projection going on. My father was depressed and went to a psych hosp with depression and paranoia and ''paranoid'' was projected on to me for decades. Literally, decades.... When I objected I was just labelled sensitive, angry, abusive.

There is just no way to change the family dynamic I've realised.

There are two choices. Accept that their denial will protect them at your expense, or drop the rope and walk away just sending birthday texts, talking about the weather.

Unfortunately I thought there was a third option where I could make them understand. Nope.

@NearlyAHoarder I’m sorry to hear you had the same experience.

@MonkeyfromManchester I will look into that.

It’s so depressing because it’s triggered a whole bunch of flashbacks. The sexual abuse wasn’t at the hand of anyone in the family and I don’t blame them for it- I just want them to acknowledge that it happened to me. I don’t understand why that is so unreasonable.

@Angliski My parents also did that ''this will not be discussed'' manoeuvre. It's very difficult because that really does spell out something that it takes months - years to digest. That YOU WILL NOT BE HEARD.

My parents had a conversation with themselves and decided that they would not have a conversation with me ''where accusations would be thrown around''.

So that was nice for them.

They really have quite an open policy of NOT HEARING ME.

I look back to the early days when I still had optimism that if I could just phrase it better etc.... and I remember myself with my carefully phrased typed out letter in font 14 so it'd be easy to read, focusing on how when they did x, I felt y. And I remember my Mum wouldn't take the letter. She was glancing about to see if the neighbours were looking.

It's very difficult to really digest the reality that your mother cares more about what the neighbours might think (if they saw me handing her a letter) than what her daughter felt

It took me nearly two years to really process the facts. Before that I kept hoping that they'd suddenly SEEEEEEEEEEE all the inconsistencies. eg, how unfair and illogical it was that my hurt was an 'accusation' and a 'grudge' but their hurt (caused by me telling them that they hurt me) that was legitimate and affected their health.

I can just never get through to them.

They don't want me to get through to them.

This is why the silent treatment, stonewalling and shaming and blaming me for having ''destroyed the family'' works best for them.

They talk about me, not to me.

They have done that a lot! The tentacles of their smear campaign have reached my cousins! People in the parish, some of my mum's friends who used to say hello to me.

@Sicario I love your story - not the abuse or games OBVIOUSLY- but your immense fortitude in leaving the fuckwits behind. You don’t need those people in your life.

Hag is trying to drag MM back in. She knows the ground has been shifting. We were away for a week and she didn’t get her way of being our toxic little shadow at my mum’s.

She has flu. Apparently.

Mmmmm…when I’ve had flu I’ve not been able to get out of my bed for two weeks, but, ‘somehow’ she’s able to go to the supermarket with Slave Son.

Even with a bad cold I couldn’t / wouldn’t go out. I certainly wouldn’t be exposing someone vulnerable to a cold. I would also be at home to get better so I’m not risking my health, getting worse and then being a burden to the buggered NHS.

But, hey, I’m 1) considerate to others 2) not a crafty manipulative c**t.

It was Mr Monkey’s first day at work yesterday in the office. Unbeknownst to me, he popped to hers after work to do a lateral flow test.

SHE HAS NOT GOT COVID. She has got a cold.

TBF, he has huge health anxiety. And she caused that when he was a kid AND exploits it.

Him: I’ll take her to the doctor if she gets worse next week

In my head: I wouldn’t bother.

I need to stop this. I will keep the pressure up re him getting counselling.

Posting this has just reminded me that I need to get the care company’s number…

@Angliski yes, this is what they do.

They don’t take responsibility, they fear what the neighbours think, they deny what happened, they paint you as an unhinged lunatic, they do a smear campaign.

They do not think about YOU.

It’s beyond awful. It’s designed to shift the blame and make you feel terrible. Can you read up on abuse and abusers’ reactions to being confronted? That might help you to see how, why they do this and how you can deal with not being believed. Sadly, they won’t shift from this position.

You’re not alone. You have two things on this forum: belief and support.

Take care xxx

''Thing is, he is hot tempered and annoying but my df and I really love each other. But I feel I can’t keep sweeping stuff under the carpet. What to do? I’m terrified I have broken the relationship.''

This is why it hurts so much. Two years ago I thought we loved each other, my parents and I. But I have had to accept that they loved me conditionally. They loved me so long as I didn't challenge their rosy perception of themselves. They saw me as an extension of themselves, well my mother sees me as an ''object self'' and doesn't think I have the right to be hurt by her/them. That absolute enrages her. How dare I.

I miss my family too but I cannot sweep it under the carpet this time either.

I have spent the last two years processing this and I cannot just pretend that I'm ok with them hurting me to be ok themselves.

It's so hard when you're at the very beginning of this epiphany.

and ps, I think I realised that if they were so open about refusing point blank to communicate meaningfully with me, like, literally telling me that they had decided there would be no discussion (like your step mother has done) then I decided that I would not play the part of daughter in their play.

It's been a shit storm over the last two years and it hasn't got better. Well, it's died down to their martyred silence and me not reaching out to protect myself...

But, I am not going to be denied any voice while simultaneously being summonsed to play the part of daughter.

I'm me. I'm not playing this game where their perception is reality and my own is at best, an act of aggression I perpetrate against them and when I wouldn't stand down, mental illness.

I wanted a family, I did not want an estrangement. They blame me for the estrangement but literally won't allow me to have my own interpretation of my childhood. The fact that I have my own interpretation of my childhood is mental illness.

I know they're very damaged people, very defensive. Low self-esteems. But why on earth can't they just say 'we could have done better. we did this but we wish we'd done better''.

That's it. If they even could say that much I'd feel they weren't trying to erode me.

ps, all of my parents' strength comes from backing each other up.

I think on one level they are confused/angry that I on my own can stand firm in my own interpretation of events. My mother has always tried to project weakness on to me because I'm single. If I ever said I was going somewhere she'd say ''on your own??'' or ''but, you'd be on your own '''

I think on one level they're baffled that I am without any support (totally mobbed by entire family inc golden child brother) not backing down. That's mental illness they say.

Wow this is so helpful and validating thank you. I’ve been in a terrible level of anxiety, feeling 5 years okd again, panicked snd ashamed. I’m constantly talking myself down by reminding my inner child that I am not responsible for their feelings.

It is horribly confusing to realise that my hurt doesn’t count but there is blistering and my fault.

The whole stupid thing only erupted because I got ordered to take down a social media post that they felt slandered them, when it fact it, very briefly, told the truth of what I had survived and did so in order to help others. I feel so ashamed for even putting it up as I never normally share at tkond of thing and it makes me feel that I brought all this on myself with my ‘carelessly worded, slanderous post for publicity’ as it was described.

It’s the lack of kindness and the lack of curiosity about what and why and how I feel that i find the most damaging.

As you say, @NearlyAHoarder I am realising that my only options are suck it up and have a relationship ( whilst being punished for the damage I’ve done) or have nothing. Both suit choices. This is horrid. I feel so ashamed.

I’m so glad it’s therapy this eve!

I wanted a family, I did not want an estrangement. They blame me for the estrangement but literally won't allow me to have my own interpretation of my childhood. The fact that I have my own interpretation of my childhood is mental illness.

I know they're very damaged people, very defensive. Low self-esteems. But why on earth can't they just say 'we could have done better. we did this but we wish we'd done better''

@NearlyAHoarder I sooooo relate to this. I am literally just asking over and over for them to hear my voice and perspective but it is not going to happen. Even my Dm, who has made some terrible mistakes, including leaving me without a home, can respond with humility and say- I’m sorry that happened and that wa slot really all I needed from her.

Oh, the smear campaigns! My narc sister and BIL were the perpetrators of the ongoing character assassination programme. I'm pretty sure my sister has a personality disorder. She's a fucking nightmare and has upset and/or insulted every one of my friends and family (my family being my lovely DH and kids).

I don't know why I tried so hard for so many years to fix the unfixable. The DARVO tactics were off the scale.

Going NC broke my heart, especially the collateral damage of losing contact with my nephews and nieces. But it was inevitable given the terrible things that they had been told about me. My sister is an empty vessel, so has to destroy other people in order to feel better about herself.

I feel a bit sorry for my mum - she's very old now - but hey, you reap what you sow. Maybe if she hadn't beat shit out of me when I was a kid things might be different. My brothers used to beat me up too, but as my mum used to say to excuse them, "boys will be boys" eh?

Good fucking riddance to the lot of them.

@Angliski well done. It feels horrible but it sounds like you’ve held on to yourself and your sense of reality despite your surroundings and what you went through.

Oof page reloaded while I was typing a very long, very emo post! Probably lucky for all of you.