October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@AnFiadhRua I totally get this. Very similar to my story. Except my dad is a very elderly well meaning person but an an enabler.
You are damned if you do and damned if you don't .
I too find Christmas hard even though I don't participate, it's the time of the year i feel the burden of obligation and guilt the most

Christmas is blessedly peaceful for me now I don't have to go there. We have never had a real relationship. I've always wanted the kind of parent relationship where I could just drop in but they peer round the door at me as if I'm a dodgy carpet salesman if I ever dare to turn up while passing. I'm not sure exactly why, maybe they think I'm going to rob their house.
Anyway I've moved about 300 miles away now and they haven't seen me for three years and over covid not once asking if I'm ok or expressing any desire to see me.
My siblings are treated the opposite, always over there.
I have no idea why this is, I'm not a drug addict or an alcoholic I'm just a normal hard working person. They never send my DS a gift on his birthday or christmas either despite being wealthy.
I've given up now.

So. DH sent the 'never contact Mrs Bob, ever again' message and she emailed me the next day (will block her via email).

I am struggling with nc - I am frightened of her turning up or bumping into her. But I also am scared of my older sibling who is trying to pressure me into 'going back'.

I know, however, that I will never go back. I just want to forget about the Bogeymum forever.

I keep having nightmares where her and my Dad (deceased) are being horrible to me. I am having as much therapy as I can afford (every two weeks) but I am struggling.

Doesn't help that I have my ILs staying this weekend and yesterday they persisted in asking me questions (did say I didn't want to talk about it) which is very triggering.

Miserable

So. DH sent the 'never contact Mrs Bob, ever again' message and she emailed me the next day (will block her via email).

Unfortunately your DH made a mistake in sending a response because toxic people like your Bogeymum will use that as ammo against you hence her reply. They really do like nothing more than a fight or the last word. To toxic people as well a response is what is wanted, do not ever respond at all to any of it. Also responding keeps a door of communication open that should remain closed.

If you have not already done so block all and every way of she being able to contact you, your DH or your DC. Be prepared too for any and all flying monkeys like your sister to descend. These people are not interested in hearing your side of things and have their own agenda so their opinion should be ignored too.

Bob,

Get your DH to talk to his parents, he can deal with them. You absolutely need his full support and or backing here.

@MrsBobDylan hugs to you. Xxxx

Dear Bob,

I was in the same position 2 years ago. My husband fronted up for me and communicated on my behalf. Naively I thought that would be for the best but HE ended up being the scapegoat by proxy and they were vile to him.
Atilla is right - never respond to anything they send. Their dysfunction means that they will twist absolutely everything against you. Pull up the draw bridges and concentrate on your own nuclear family.
As far as your in laws go don't feel afraid of asking them for some space whilst you recalibrate and adjust

I’m very late but hoping I can join in for some support.

It’s only now I have a DS of my own that I see how awful my mother was, I was physically abused at times and force fed foods I didn’t like (and still don’t!) the last straw was my grandfather passing two weeks ago. All was fine until day 5 where I forgot to phone her (she was with siblings arranging things) and now I’m the daughter from hell.

Completely ignored with small information passed via cheeky text messages. The funeral was yesterday yet she didn’t acknowledge me once.

Looks like for the first time in 28 years I’ll be alone with my DS and DH for Xmas and I’m not sure how to feel about that.

Hello everyone
I have been looking for resources to help me cope with a Mother Situation that has disrupted my life on a regular basis, and has just come to a point where I think I need to seriously reduce contact
I'm sorry for the long post but I need to lay it out somewhere!
Mother is a very educated and creative person. She was a very engaged parent when we were small, but got weirder & weirder once I was post-pubescent. The family narrative is that she is self-effacing and shy, but looking back I have come to recognise the extent to which everything was about her - compliments were demanded; criticism obsessed over & never forgotten; if I met anyone interesting or influential she'd immediately say, literally, "Did you tell them about me??" Both parents always drank daily, but about twenty years ago when I was in my twenties she began day drinking and making regular public spectacles of herself. Occasionally my older sister & I (younger sister was still a kid) would discuss it with her; she'd weep and promise to stop, but didn't.
In my early 30s I lost a baby at five months' pregnancy. She arrived to "look after" me, went on a huge drinking binge and treated me like shit.
A few years later I had premature twins. She arrived without being asked, got drunk again, tried to dominate with the babies - it was awful. I asked my dad to please help & he shouted at me and called me hormonal.
I had therapy, entirely stopped drinking myself and built a good family with, gradually, a tentative but ok relationship with her. She lives far away and we never speak on the phone (I stopped calling because of her slurred voice). But I visit sometimes with the kids & communicate by message.
She is supposed to be teetotal now, but numerous times including the last time I visited in July, she has been drunk. My dad plays oblivious; my older sister loves to empathetically psychobabble about how hard Mum finds life; little sister keeps a distance.
Lately we've had a house purchase fall through and a tedious chain of related disasters occur. She was being seemingly supportive and I was desperate, so at a very low ebb last week I called. One of many things I confided was how sensitive I felt about people's judgments of our situation.
After a long sad phonecall where she acted very concerned & loving, I got a bunch of WhatsApp notifications. It was my mum & older sister not realising they were posting in a group I was in. MM told my sister all the sensitive stuff I'd shared, in bastardised wrong mocking terms, took the piss & said stuff like "I'm saying nothing, just making supportive noises!!"
I came on & set a few things straight & then left the group.
Sister apologised immediately but defended my mum ("she was really happy you called!" - !!). Mother made no attempt to contact me.
Yesterday my dad told me mother had fallen & broken her collarbone. I said I hoped it healed fine but she knew why i wasn't in contact.

Thank you for reading.
Best wishes to everyone with similar crap in their heads.
Oh and... we went to many stately homes.

That's really good advice @AttilaTheMeerkat and @acornfed - I wish I had run it past you guys first. I will make sure dh has blocked her as well as my eldest son.

I don't know why we did it really - it felt like drawing a line in the sand and stopping her turning up on the doorstep. Instead it just 'fed' her and her narcissistic sickness.

The ILs go tomorrow-dh isn't equipped to tell them anything sadly. He learnt how to become virtually invisible as a child and has no skills to defend himself, let alone me. I have told him this weekend that I haven't got rid of Bogeymum just for his parents to fill the gap.

@EbonanzaScrooge I would bet your Mum will still be there at Xmas - it would be a blessed relief if she took her vile attitude elsewhere, so she's not going to gift you respite from her manipulative self

I don't believe there is a way to 'manage' narcissists, hence why I am now NC with mine.

@zillah I can't stress enough how much you need to cut contact.

You are the scapegoat and your mother and sister's abuse of you will never stop.

Every time you have needed her, your Mother has purposefully hurt you even more. That is not love.

We have struggled financially since I gave up work to care full time for my middle child who is disabled. My shitty, revolting, blood-sucking Mother chose to demean me when I told her we were moving to a flat. It was the final straw for me because it centred around my kids and I couldn't accept her in my life anymore.

Please cut contact. You don't deserve to be abused.

thank you. It really helps just to have someone say that, and I'm so sorry for your situation too.

@zillah what an abuse of trust. How hurtful for you to come across those WA messages.
It's always the way isn't it - we are vulnerable , we reach out for our mothers (a primal longing ) we are duped, and they throw it back in our faces in ways we hadn't even imagined.

Eventually it's one time too many and we have to make the heartbreaking decision to cut contact. After we have tried everything. But then get blamed for that too.

I found validation on groups like this really helpful and also reading books like Karyl McBride to name just one

@MrsBobDylan you did it because you thought if you behave rationally and with reason they would behave accordingly . And they never ever do .
But sometimes unfortunately you have to try and test everything to finally get to the point where you resolutely break contact . To leave no room for doubt how utterly toxic they are . Close the door and keep it closed .

Thank you x

@MrsBobDylan hope you are feeling better. @zillah god, that’s awful. The last straw is the WhatsApp messaging - that’s so bad.

I’ve been quiet on the Hag front.

However, Mr Monkey has been really worried about his toxic Bitch of a mother descending on disabled brother in law aka the Hag’s slave son for DAYS over Xmas (no need to stay over as Slave Son lives 10 mins drive away - the ‘need’ is her omnipresent desire for stirring up drama). His worry is more about his brother coping with the frail bitch with death trap stairs, no heating, no spare room. And Slave Son’s mental health.

At the end of the day, if anything happened to her, it would be BIL trying to pick her off the floor and then us dealing with the fallout pissing on our Xmas and being on tenterhooks if anything happening to the witch. Which, obviously, she knows.

Any fallout now would NEVER include her staying with us whilst recovering - NOT AFTER 10 WEEKS AFTER THIS OVER 2020/21. But it would involve us standing in a casualty department or ward saying we refuse to take responsibility for the venomous witch.

So, we decided to ask her - not me, I will NOT get directly involved - to come for the offered two days at my mum’s. I think the Hag had already started to realise she’d fucked up by being spiteful as she started to mention Slave Son’s struggles with his stairs which is code for her struggle with the stairs. Total and utter manipulation.

So, Mr Monkey took her the witch to lunch on Saturday and persuaded her.

Of course, it was half an hour of game playing including the ABSOLUTE best example to date of her self-obsessed selfishness and entitlement.

“You haven’t got a bed at Slave Son’s”
“I can have his bedroom”

THE. BEST. YET.

You would scarcely believe she has ANY knowledge of his disability where he can’t walk without sticks and needs a mobility scooter (which she forbids him to get) and has serious fatigue which requires regular rest. There is no way he could sleep on a sofa. And why the fuck should he.

But, of course, his disability is a major drama the rest of the time. How very convenient.

So, she’s coming - I weighed up the pros and cons - for two days. Late morning Xmas Day and then going home as soon as it’s getting dark on Boxing Day. Back to her lair. Then, hopefully, I won’t have to see the fucking witch to her birthday.

I will NOT allow her to stay for a moment longer. The kick off over where Lady Hag was staying was the usual annual drama and her being affronted that we didn’t invite her to stay for six days which is now long we’re staying with MY mum. Unbelievable. Six days of misery. I think not.

Why do the fucking Narc Bastards fuck around even more at Xmas? No joy to all men from these twats.

To everyone dealing with Xmas games with the bastards you have my heartfelt sympathy.

Hi all, long term lurker here. Am currently having therapy and wrote a long letter to my Sister as she kept pushing for a close relationship after we have been distant all our lives due to her being a nasty cow!
My Mum's response:

By acknowledging Sister was spiteful to you is hardly defending her. I don't like her distance from your kids, and it hurts, so i can only imagine how you feel. Can i ask if Dad has had a intense text, i fear not the case and wonder why.:-(

@PurpleDaisy2114 keep your distance, don’t get drawn into family bollocks with either your sister or your mum. Block them. It’s a big game to them and they’re ganging up on you. Hope you feel OK.

Hello. Long time lurker poster and name changer.
I've recently come across 'replacement child syndrome'. But there's not much on it. Nothing on here at all. I am a replacement child for one that died shortly after childbirth. I was born 14 months later. I have always known this but never really before thought that it was a factor. Many many years ago I was told by a counsellor that my strained relationship with my DM was down to this trauma. I think that's fair. I mentioned to my DM (talking 20 years ago) and she went bananas. They had DF parent die a year before so it was quite a horrible time and would shape anyone. A recent counsellor said my DM was chronically depressed still. She is. Always been miserable for sure.
. anyone here know anything on this subject?
It does explain a lot. The emotional neglect and parentification is definitely there... and I'm managing it via low contact... but the naricisim isn't a good fit for her. Dm does have some traits but not enough.
My dd who is only a teenager was the one who pointed it out. My dm has some serious womens health issues and it has a very tenuous link to the emergency c section she had when she had me. She has pretty much blamed this c section for it (and by default me). Has gone on about it at length. The c section has links to previous child's death (short version of story). I can't even get upset as its ludicrous to try to get me to take the blame for my own birth 50 years ago! And my DD said so as she heard it too! She said 'I'm sorry you're their sloppy seconds, you're not mine'. I found it very upsetting as I'd not said it to her. She'd just worked it out for herself. She's a clever girl.

Hi everyone, posting from another thread. Long story short I live with my parents at 25 (saving money) and it all kicked off. Basically I’ve been in ruts before, struggled with my mental health. Never really got on with my sisters, they say I’m overly sensitive. Had family issues before where they belittle me thinking they’re helping but not like this.

It kicked off again and honestly I feel it’s my fault this time…
It started as my parents telling me a family member is visiting soon and I said me and DP will pop in as we have plans that day. They took that as “you don’t wanna come then, you’re avoiding us then” and I explained that I already had plans but will pop in and that i’d be polite to my sister but don’t particularly want a massive chat with her. They called me out for causing an atmosphere and then moaned that I’ve been “sneaking around” as I didn’t say hello on my return to work as I was tired, comparing it to my sister.

Things kicked off again from here and parents said they don’t feel the need to apologise as it’s called “tough love” and said it “makes them sick” when I say they belittle and undermine me because it’s completely normal. I tried to explain that I apologised for my part and they just need to apologise for making me upset, whether they believe it or not, but they just didn’t.

So a few things were said by both of us that we didn’t mean, and my dad went upstairs angrily to start packing my things and to get out of the house. So I did. Mum then said don’t leave, he won’t mean it, just be out by the weekend. But I said no because I was so upset at this point I just needed to leave the house. My head was a mess and they were guarding the door but I really needed to get out so I tried to resist. They accused me of playing games, wanting to be the victim and doing it for attention/drama. They took away my car key and wouldn’t let me leave. Dad threw me to the floor, gripping my coat tight so that I couldn’t move and by this point I was a state and was trying to leave (I didn’t feel unsafe, I just wanted to leave and clear my head).
Mum threatened to call the police and they were both looking down on me saying “look at her, she’s an animal, shall we call a doctor, she’s not right in the head”.

They then said if I leave then it’s over, they’ll cut me off completely and I’ll leave with no one. I felt so overwhelmed so called my friend who lives down the road and she picked me up.

I am still there now. I feel like I’ve made a massive massive mistake now sad

I think they have just been trying to help and it is tough love sometimes but I just wish they would see that the things they say hurt me sometimes. I said I’ve never doubted that they’ve brought me up well but the family dynamic can be toxic

• also said “we don’t need to respect you, we just need to raise you”
• I’m really worried about Christmas now as I need to be out and they said they’ll cut me off forever
• I’m grateful for things they HAVE done for me (they’ve done a lot - maybe it is me)

The Fucking Hag.

ChristmasCard-gate continues. How complicated can sending some fucking cards to family.

Mr Monkey: I’ll pop over to x and drop them off with them. You could come with me.
Hag: do I have to?
MM: up to you.
Hag: (sniff) It’s alright, I won’t bother.

This is the woman who moans constantly about being lonely. And how no one ever rings her.

She’s currently lapping up stories of my cousin’s* leukaemia. She doesn’t know him from Adam.

*he’s fine and has had it - and lived with it well - for years.

Why do some people thrive on misery?

@cherrytrees96 I hope you are ok? That sounds awful. You are an adult but they are treating like a child . Then again would you grab a child and fling them to the floor and stand over them calling them animal. Then to threaten you with being cut off?
You may have said things you didn’t mean and so may they have. That’s normal family life . What follows on from that wasn’t!
They sound very controlling.

@cherrytrees96
So sorry. I've just read your post - I had the red mist over the Hag, it HAD been a quiet week - that's terrible. It's not you. Take some space, be with people who support you. Big hug. @therealsmithfield has words of wisdom here.

@MonkeyfromManchester please don’t apologise it’s ok! Completely feel your post - some people just see the negative in absolutely everything don’t they?!
And thank you @therealsmithfield