October 2021 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Its late October 2021 now, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@AnFiadhRua

Im not. I just know Im not able for it. Their complete denial of the fact that they've hurt me and their narrative that they're overlooking my bad behavior will trigger me. I cannot do it.

My parents not only hurt me but they shut down all communication, made themselves the victims of me, talked about me not to me, and yet still, bafflingly, hold me responsible for the distance and damage their silent treatments have done to our relationship.

I see things so clearly now. The reprogramming from 35 years plus (or 50 years?) gaslighting has been wiped.

I see things through my own lens now.

I see two kind of sad pathetic stalwarts of the parish who truly believe they are victims of a horrible middle aged daughter.

Argh!

Oh gosh same for me. It’s called DARVO Deny Attack Reverse Victim to Offender

@MrsBobDylan

So. DH sent the 'never contact Mrs Bob, ever again' message and she emailed me the next day (will block her via email).

I am struggling with nc - I am frightened of her turning up or bumping into her. But I also am scared of my older sibling who is trying to pressure me into 'going back'.

I know, however, that I will never go back. I just want to forget about the Bogeymum forever.

I keep having nightmares where her and my Dad (deceased) are being horrible to me. I am having as much therapy as I can afford (every two weeks) but I am struggling.

Doesn't help that I have my ILs staying this weekend and yesterday they persisted in asking me questions (did say I didn't want to talk about it) which is very triggering.

Miserable

You could always get the police involved. £100 for a solicitor letter saying do not contact me ever ever again by any means via any third party or DH etc

Ceast and desist letter basically and then call the police if she breaches it show them solicitor letter she does it twice it’s a criminal offence - but if you do this you must not reply or communicate or response at all

@cherrytrees96 you’re welcome - at the same age I could have written your post myself . Helping your kids when they need you should be unconditional not conditional on their compliance with your own needs.
Using your needing them to control, gaslight and manipulate is not ok.
Is there anywhere you can stay for now? To gather your thoughts and gain some distance.
I imagine this isn’t the first time they have behaved this way and I’m conscious you will have normalised much of their behaviour.

@cherrytrees96

Hi everyone, posting from another thread. Long story short I live with my parents at 25 (saving money) and it all kicked off. Basically I’ve been in ruts before, struggled with my mental health. Never really got on with my sisters, they say I’m overly sensitive. Had family issues before where they belittle me thinking they’re helping but not like this.

It kicked off again and honestly I feel it’s my fault this time…
It started as my parents telling me a family member is visiting soon and I said me and DP will pop in as we have plans that day. They took that as “you don’t wanna come then, you’re avoiding us then” and I explained that I already had plans but will pop in and that i’d be polite to my sister but don’t particularly want a massive chat with her. They called me out for causing an atmosphere and then moaned that I’ve been “sneaking around” as I didn’t say hello on my return to work as I was tired, comparing it to my sister.

Things kicked off again from here and parents said they don’t feel the need to apologise as it’s called “tough love” and said it “makes them sick” when I say they belittle and undermine me because it’s completely normal. I tried to explain that I apologised for my part and they just need to apologise for making me upset, whether they believe it or not, but they just didn’t.

So a few things were said by both of us that we didn’t mean, and my dad went upstairs angrily to start packing my things and to get out of the house. So I did. Mum then said don’t leave, he won’t mean it, just be out by the weekend. But I said no because I was so upset at this point I just needed to leave the house. My head was a mess and they were guarding the door but I really needed to get out so I tried to resist. They accused me of playing games, wanting to be the victim and doing it for attention/drama. They took away my car key and wouldn’t let me leave. Dad threw me to the floor, gripping my coat tight so that I couldn’t move and by this point I was a state and was trying to leave (I didn’t feel unsafe, I just wanted to leave and clear my head).
Mum threatened to call the police and they were both looking down on me saying “look at her, she’s an animal, shall we call a doctor, she’s not right in the head”.

They then said if I leave then it’s over, they’ll cut me off completely and I’ll leave with no one. I felt so overwhelmed so called my friend who lives down the road and she picked me up.

I am still there now. I feel like I’ve made a massive massive mistake now sad

I think they have just been trying to help and it is tough love sometimes but I just wish they would see that the things they say hurt me sometimes. I said I’ve never doubted that they’ve brought me up well but the family dynamic can be toxic

• also said “we don’t need to respect you, we just need to raise you”
• I’m really worried about Christmas now as I need to be out and they said they’ll cut me off forever
• I’m grateful for things they HAVE done for me (they’ve done a lot - maybe it is me)

I would get out. Go and be a lodger in someone’s house - ask on FB or a local church my lovely - and move out. It is emotional mental physical abuse - get your stuff passport childhood teddy bear photos etc start taking them out of the house bit by bit and leave them with a friend. You must leave.

I’m 50 and I have a seriously well paid job and my father bent my neck over my car tyre - and held me there shouting look look - I didn’t know what I was fucking looking at he was screaming at me - I went into the house he continued screaming at me I went to ‘my room’ as I needed to get away and he followed me screaming calling me a slut thick- I went upstairs and embarrassingly I had wet my pants - due to fear 50 years old bastard - escape because isn’t going to get better abuse never does

Hello everyone, lost this thread (again) but after an inordinate amount of scrolling, I'm back 

@IAAP I do wonder about doing that. Our timeframe for moving is end of Jan/beginning of Feb, so lots of time for her to appear like the Ghost of Xmas past. I will feel on edge all Xmas wondering if she's going to turn up.

The ILs left thank Christ. FiL definitely a narcissist and MiL nice but an active enabler.

I have got to the guilt stage. I still have nightmares every night, which are unrelentingly long and complicated. It is as though my mind wants to torture me further.

I keep thinking about how awful it would be to be her, having 'lost' two children due to her behaviour. But therein lies madness, doesn't it?

I

cherrytrees96 that was abuse, pure and simple and irreduceable.

If someone says if [you] leave then it’s over, they’ll cut [you] off completely and [you'll] leave with no one. .. that's a power play, pure and simple. Calling you animal, calling you not right in the head while holding you on the floor, that's bullying of a schoolyard level from your adult parents. Also illegal.

They want to rule your life by fear. Their way, and their dominance, or nothing. I'm sure they have been loving at times but this is the bedrock underlying everything.

It isn't right, lovely. You deserve so very, very much more than this: Unconditional love.

The road ahead, whichever path you choose, is going to be very hard. But there is support available. You must have been so appallingly shaken. I hope your friend was there for you and keep posting here.

@cherrytrees96 and @IAAP I'm sorry for the abuse you have suffered.

@IAAP is right - it will never stop until you fully walk away. It is very hard to do since children of narcissists are brought up to be highly empathetic. We are not allowed to consider our own needs and if we ever do, we are accused of being selfish.

The only silver lining when an abusive parent effects physical harm, is that it is solid, undeniable 'proof' that we are not loved and the only way to stay safe, is to not allow them in our lives at all.

Hello all, and very sorry for everyone's experience. I just wanted to say a little hello. I've followed the thread for the last long while, and although I don't want to share any details of my own experience, I did want to be a little bit visible as one of the stately 'family' (although I appreciate that's possibly not a brilliant word for a group of us who may never have had the opportunity for a healthy family). I know that Christmas can be really difficult (it has been for me in the past), so wanted to send love and solidarity with anyone dreading the next few weeks. Xx

Hi everyone,

It is CecileDeVolanges, having left for a few months and then come back.

I sort of want to pour out every detail but I don't want to write a massive essay and I keep doing that and then deleting it. I just wanted to seek reassurance for a little while that there is a corner of the internet who doesn't think I'm just a dependent and abusive alcoholic.

I haven't posted on here for a while but I just needed to talk to someone today.
I have been nc with everyone in my family since before the end of October and it's tje third time this has happened since I married a decade ago.
All my life I was criticised and put down. But I was always the 'good girl' cleaning and keeping quiet and working hard. I stayed in my room a lot to steer clear of my mother's temper ans depressive and angry behaviour. She never came to parents evening and when I used to study at the library I would come home and she would scream she could smell vodka and I was drinking.

I used to babysit and If I spent my earnings she would say I was a selfish bitch as there was no money in the house. There was.
If I applied for a Saturday job then she'd say oh they take on special needs people.
When I went to uni I felt a sense of freedom. I got no emotional or financial help and didn't come back in the holidays.

I'm not nearer home and married (they said I would never find someone as I am too much hard work)
Dh once stood up to them when dm was being spiteful (even dads wedding speech talked more about their friends 50th birthday than me) I don't have a big ego but you get the picture.

My hen and graduation mum fell needed a&e needed taking out of the hall due to 'pain'
She hardly gets out of bed and makes nasty remarks and mocks everyone despite being a size 26 (again I don't care buy just for context none of us are perfect) if I put on weight I would be made to feel ashamed.

My brother said I don't get too involved (we moved abroad but rings everyday and sends money)
and my other brother said I only care about myself. He has never once visited me in five years. He doesn't know where I live but I m expected to go home twice a week.

Anyway the last visit my mother came here I was working from home and dh was due to take our dc to his parents. I said come over yes but we need to be finished by 4 I have to work and dh is visiting his parents.

She came about 3pm!! Then left my brothers kids here and went shopping and came back at 4 wanting tea and that was OK. I smiled and made tea. Dh leaves with ours at 4.30pm and I took out the laptop.

She hot into a temper took my nieces ans nephews and angrily drove away and has not contacted me since...drama drama drama.

I won't contact them. I feel controlled and made to be the cause of my mother's bad temper. She once said I make her feel like she wants to commit suicide. Dad points to his head (ie. You've gone nuts)

Where do I go from here. I can't sleep

I moved nearer home (typo)

Sorry I have typed this poorly. My brother moved abroad. I live near my parents (20 mins)
There is always some kind of crisis and catastrophy. Everything is a drama. Years ago my father told me to move away (he used to be supportive and very kind and knew I needed to make the break)
At one point he worked the other end of the country and I got the blame for her being lonely. He's also said you think they didn't have a daughter as I don't clean or anything for them now (I used to scrub the house for them up until I had my own dc and was also working full time) since then its ramped up.

@Pegasussnail just replying as I'm around. What you are feeling is very valid and the cause of the problem is not you, it's your family members. A lot of what you are talking about sounds very familiar to me - I didn't even try to get a babysitting job and my mother is still claiming poverty and I am still giving her money.
You can't blame yourself and the only person whose behaviour you can control is you. I would say in this case you need to maintain the no contact. You might have to go no or low contact with other family members. I am contemplating doing that, and having to leave many friends, because the last time I cut contact my mother proceeded to make such a massive fuss and made their lives so miserable that they all begged me to speak to her just to get her to stop, and also started blaming me for the problems in their lives in one or two cases. If you do resume contact, by the way, you won't necessarily feel less guilty. My mother has made a LOT of mentions about how much I upset her, to the point of implying that she will commit suicide if I leave again, even though she has never even tried to harm herself.

Oh Cecil your response has helped me more than you know. I am not in a good place today. I will tackle a bit of housework shortly to help me keep busy.
No one has contacted me. One brother doesn't know my address despite me having his kids most weekends (my mother brings them up as he's separated and he works weekends and she finds them hard to cope with and dirty bums etc make her sick hence the visit to me)

How are you coping

Hi Pegasus

Cecile is right by stating its not you but them.

People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles and yours here seems to be one of scapegoat (a dynamic commonly seen in narcissistic family structures). Your mother is the primary abuser here and your dad is both her secondary abuser and willing enabler. He is also a weak man who has and will continue to act out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He has and will also continue to throw you under the bus to save his own skin; he cannot be at all relied upon.

I would start by becoming far less available to any of your family of origin going forward. Having contact with any of them harms you emotionally.

Your mother has a brass neck anyway to be bringing her son's kids over to yours simply because she cannot be asked to do any aspect of their personal care. Is his wife aware that her children are being taken over to yours on such a basis?. How dare your mother use you like this too.

Thanks Atlila
Yes his wife knows but my mother asks for their kids even if it's not my brothers weekend (they are a handful but lovely and ex sister in law I'd glad of a break is into partying etc)
My mother takes on this big saviour role (they would be hungry and dirty only for us - her favourite phrase)

Dfather is constantly angry. Both my parents have strained/ nc relationships with their own siblings and sadly now have I

The strange thing is I have a younger brother (back in September) who asked our ex sister in law to mind his kids when he was over for a wedding yet I only has a fleeting visit with them
Ex sister in law cheated on my brother and hence the break up.

I literally cannot understand the hatred towards me. I feel used.

As I stand up for myself my mother says I punish her. She has health problems and once said do you know how bad I am. I said yes. She kept saying it. So I said yes COPD - my friends mum died from it.

Next day my dad rang saying she was crying all night saying I have to be more sensitive towards her so I stopped saying much at all. Then I got screamed at for being so distant.

Does that make sense. One of my nephews is mixed race and she is constantly making racist remarks (this is disturbing)

But to the world they're funny and generous and I am nuts and selfish. I

@Pegasussnail I'm so sorry you are feeling like this, it's awful. It is horrible to accept but yes, you are being used, and the way that you are being used is as the scapegoat. If someone has hurt someone else and can just say they deserve it, projecting their own self-hatred onto you, then they don't ever have to face themselves and can justify their own bad behaviour to themselves and everyone else. Some people feel better if they can compare themselves favourably with another person. I don't really understand why or how, but it is definitely the case with some people. Some also like to make themselves the victim or martyr in a constant drama. This conveniently lets them get away with falling short, as well.
Your dad's response makes perfect sense. Your mother probably needs constant admiration and entertainment. Not liking her or wanting to spend time with her is not an acceptable option.

This thread keeps sinking on me. Bumping

I literally cannot understand the hatred towards me. I feel used.

They treat you very badly - you know that right?

People dislike people they treat badly. At some level most people have some flicker of conscience. The way they treat you is awful and so you make them uncomfortable and so they try to find reasons why You Are A Bad Person and Deserve it (like you're a terrible daughter for not cleaning their house all the time, even though you have your own family).

As everyone says, it's them not you, but unfortunately you're the one left with the steaming pile of cack on your feet.

Hi everyone,

At a super low point today. We had an argument yesterday about whether my mother had transferred £500 to me. This is a life-changing sum for me but insignificant for them, they have a £500,000 mortgage and two houses. They both maintained that they thought my account number began with 23. I’m 29 and they have been giving me the occasional bit of money since 19 and I have never had an account beginning with 2. Throughout my mother kept saying “don’t listen to her, she’s drunk” and I had had some wine but I still knew what was going on. Coping with this cognitive dissonance is too much. The fact that I had drunk alcohol does not change a 2 to a 4 and I have had this account for five to six years.

That sounds awful @CecileDeRetour they are really messing with your head.

It's ridiculous as well because when /if you've transferred money to somebody previously, it's not like you have to enter the numbers again. You click on their name.

Ps That's not the point though. The messing with your head is the point.

When you point out that what they've said doesn't stack up then they call you abusive/ungrateful/outrageous etc.

@CecileDeRetour money is used to control - mine certainly used money as a means of control .
Is there anyway you can no longer hand them this power? You don’t need them to supply you with anything. Don’t let them steal your self worth , self esteem via this means anymore. You are a capable young woman with the world at your feet. This must be your new mantra from now on.

Hi everyone

So I called a helpline and they have a space in Northampton. I don't think it's too far. They expressed some caring around alcohol which is beyond belief really. They are going to call back in a couple of hours. I just can't believe it at all.