Let's befriend other women please

[Neveratruerfriend]

I've noticed there are a lot of recent threads about friendships, or lack of them, or feeling excluded from groups. I've also started several threads about these too.

So can I make a plea to those of you who have no worries about your own friendship dynamics, to reach out to those of us that are often in anxiety knots, especially in social situations? Some of my suggestions are:

If you are having a conversation as a small group and someone is hovering on the edges but clearly is not part of the conversation, could you lead them in? Eg here is my friend X, she's also a keen runner (or share 1 relevant fact about X so she can join in). Often I've seen groups turn their back on some poor soul (often it's been me) and it is absolutley excruciating

Similarly at a networking event, if you see someone sitting on their own, it may really make their day if you stopped and had a chat with them - why do most people find this so hard to do?

If at a big party in a restaurant, where the table forms 2 lines. If 3 of you are having a chat, please avoid turning your back on the person on the other side of you as you are completely excluding them from being able to contribute to the conversation (and then that person is left looking like billy no mates).

Also on your whatsapp groups, maybe check what is going on. For example find out who is in the group? Who is doing most of the talking or getting most responses? Who is possibly being left out, ignored or excluded?

So what I'm asking is for the socially confident people (social butterflies etc) to please hone up their empathy skills and observe when someone may need just a little help to feel included.

I know some may argue it's tough, these wallflowers need to look after themselves and make more of an effort to join in. But how do you know that they're not willing, or even trying? But when I sit there and I'm the one that's presented with someone's back to me, it's kind of awkward to interrupt?

You can’t make your feelings of exclusion about other people’s behaviour, and require “everyone else” to change in order for you to feel better.

I know that sounds harsh but honestly, it’s a futile endeavour!

My children have just started senior school and I would give them similar advice - find your tribe, don’t assume everyone else is confident and that you’re the only one struggling, don’t ‘other’ yourself.

I present as really socially confident but get social anxiety a lot - I’m sure plenty of shy presenting types would think I’m a social butterfly and find it all really easy but I really don’t. I don’t think it helps to think there is a ‘them and is’ in life - everyone is trying their best and you can never know what’s going on for anyone beneath the surface.

This is a good and important thread, but it’s not going to go well.

@IWillFindYou

Why do you say that it's not going to go well? I'm glad you like the thread though.

I would have thought most people would try and make sure they included those that wanted to be included? I’m trying to think of my friendship group on the school run and I talk to most people. I’ll admit there’s a few I don’t talk to due to a falling out or the race they’re uber cliquey and a bit snotty. Anyone normal though that’s up for a chat, I chat to! Is that not happening elsewhere?

*fact

I include people when I can but you have to make the effort too op. It’s not enough to just decide you’re shy and so everyone else should make sure you’re included

I do, and will continue to do so where appropriate, but I do also feel strongly that socially-anxious people do also need to manage their own anxiety, and not (as one sees regularly on here), shift responsibility for their own struggles onto what they view as ‘cliqueishness’ or ‘bullying’ on the part of other people. Other people owe you normal social consideration — not ignoring you, saying hello, replying if you speak to them, being pleasant/polite when you’re in the same space etc — they don’t owe you friendship. That you have to go out and get by making your own social overtures.

I’ve reread your post and am still a bit gobsmacked that you think there are these groups of people nailing it at social events while the poor shy people flounder on the sidelines. Everybody - literally everybody - hates networking events. If you are there thinking “well it’s alright for THEM what about poor little me!?” you are on a hiding to nothing.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with my therapist (yes, people who appear socially confident have therapists!) about how I was going to stop dating people because I was finding it too painful because of the way SOME people had behaved towards me. He gently tried to tell me that I could either go through life expecting everyone to change and be permanently disappointed by them, or develop my resilience to being let down or disappointed. (Or stop trying to connect with other people at all, which is clearly not what he was going to recommend I do..)

@ibelieveinmirrorballs

You can’t make your feelings of exclusion about other people’s behaviour, and require “everyone else” to change in order for you to feel better.

I know that sounds harsh but honestly, it’s a futile endeavour!

Yes, I agree with this.

Look, everyone feels shy and anxious. I make an ENORMOUS effort to interact with people and not come across as anxious. Some people try, and others don't, or they do, but then give up.

Just because someone appears confident doesn't mean it's easy for them. It took me ages to become a person who seemed confident and managed to hold conversations with people. Other people need to try and work on this for themselves.

We can't just encourage people to take other people on, we can't make people's inclusion the responsibility of others. Its harmful and unrealistic and frankly unfair.

We all need to take responsibility of our own lives, our own behaviour, and our own happiness. Yes, we can try to be kind. But that doesn't mean everyone should leave it up to everyone else to involve them and to make them feel welcome and involved.

It's a tough one I did an invite recently to all the mums in my kids class went out of my way to invite the ones who weren't on Facebook in person but only the normal people turned up. The ones I kinda knew would as we all talk to each other at pick up time. Its hard people who are socially anxious just cant always do the invites it's too much.

I think the mantra that other people cant try is bullshit though....why not. You dont have to make it your lifes work just try that little but harder to be inclusive. My eldest son has ASD and this is so hard for him that I always try to leave no one out of anything but its doesnt always work.

I look confident and outgoing but like plenty of others it’s because I work at it! I go for “what’s the worst that ca happen?” And then dive right in. However I am easily put off. If I’ve tried to speak to you and got what feels like a brush off then I won’t try again. This isn’t because I hate you but because rejection stings a bit! If you aren’t really rejecting me but are so wrapping your own anxiety that it looks that way then the outcome will be the same.

Basically it has to be a meet halfway thing. Yes the socially more adept could make more effort with the wallflowers but the wallflowers need to recognise and seize those olive branches.

I honestly think it's more about working on your own inner self confidence than expecting the rest of the world to accommodate your insecurity and adapt for you.

@tootiredtospeak but you’re assuming people don’t try. They do. It might not be exactly as you’d like it but it’s not for you to judge “how much” other people are trying. You have no idea how hard it might be for them to be doing what they’re doing, even if it doesn’t meet your standard!

You’re seeing two completely different types of people, those who find being social and chatty easy and those you don’t. You’re placing all responsibility for the latter group on the former. Both of your assumptions are wrong.

It’s very unfair to assume anyone finds it easy meeting and getting to know new people. Everyone has their own stuff going on.

And you’re talking about adults, not children. You can’t try and dictate how people behave.

It's really tricky. I'm one of those social butterfly-type people. I'm confident, chatty, generally happy and sociable - but I bloody hate networking events, big parties, big meal gatherings... I'm the one in the toilets at conferences on the break because I really really don't want to talk to anyone or want anyone to talk to me! But everyone who knows me would say I'm the person who will talk to anyone. You never know what's going on the heads of the confident/unconfident people...

I think your naive to believe that all people try. Some do and if they do then that's good enough. But not everyone does believe me there are plenty of individuals out there that couldnt give a shit they are mean and probably enjoy slightly the fact they are more popular. If you haven't met one then well done. For anyone that has they will get what I mean. It was the whole purpose of the be kind movement last year and I dint think that should go away. Be kind be inclusive of you get knocked back fine but dont let that stop you trying if your mental health isnt affected by it.

I'm not dictating how people should behave, I'm asking - that's all. Look, I have been in situations when I have observed someone struggling socially and I will always make an effort towards them. Also at the dining table I don't turn my back on my neighbour without first checking they are involved in a conversation with someone else.
I know what it's like to be excluded and I would always try to alleviate that situation for somebody else where I can.

Many years ago I went to a wedding of a work partner of my ex. I didn't know anyone there and whilst he was hobnobbing with the big and good he completely ignored me and didn't even have the courtesy to introduce me into the group as his wife! He was the perfect definition of the big I-am, and this is an extreme example. But maybe you can appreciate my point, just a little?

Out of interest that wedding was a defining moment. I decided fuck you and left him a few weeks later for someone else (who, for the record, is brilliant socially at making everyone in the room feeling welcome and included).

You’re also assuming everyone who looks quiet and disengaged is waiting to be included.

Hang around here for a day and you’ll see hoards of people who do the school run, their shopping, get through social engagements with their heads down desperately hoping no one tries to talk to them!

Trying to enforce chatter on them wouldn’t go down well.

I think there is a difference between being inclusive which I would argue most people except for the horribly toxic cliques and I wouldn't encourage anyone to have to deal with those. Most decent people are reasonably inclusive but it's a bit much to expect them to cater to others this way. I'm sure it's under the guise of being nice and kind but in all honesty it's not very reasonable to expect one group to offset the other. Surely being nice works both ways by not putting obligation on either party?

I also think be careful assuming everyone is the same. I'm not shy I'm introverted. I'm not rude or dismissive but social contact in truth does nothing but exhaust me . I don't enjoy it , I don't feel better for having done it. I don't have low self esteem, I am not afraid of people. I see it as a societal expectation that is quite unfair.

I do it for professional purposes when I absolutely have to and because its unfair not to for my DC. I do the bare minimum but I do that minimum with a smile and cheery disposition. Which I can only retain for so long. I absolutely don't want anyone doing anything to encourage me to behave differently.

I actually know quite a few people who feel the same (somewhat ironically:-)) If we are at an event for work and children that we need to be I certainly do not want someone making a special effort with me.

I find it mildly amusing that people will say that introverts will end up with no friends or alone. Yes , that's what many of us are ok with. Truly. Not everyone wants to be part of the group.so someone "helping" me would be quite unpleasant in my eyes.

So I understand what you are saying but it really isn't across the board. I'm afraid it really isn't anyone else's responsibility beyond common courtesy and not actively excluding people.

Of course but a smile or a wave doesnt hurt it can give them an opening if they then want to speak if they dont fair enough.

See I used to get told I was stand offish all the time. I don’t always WANT to be included in the gossip, or make lots of plans, or have long chats on the phone- it’s not me!

I do have lots of friends weirdly, but they’re not a big group who all know each other and they’re quite similar to me.

A lot of the time I’m on my own because I want to be.

I actually at aged 7 told my teacher I was being harassed by a group of girls who wanted to play with me, and I just wanted to be left alone 😂

I’m a bit like a cat- social interaction on my terms. I can’t be the only one like this.

And I’ll add that I am PERFECTLY capable of being ‘on’ and chatty in a new social group if I have to. I’ve made the effort for NCT as I think it’s helpful to know women in the same position as me right now, with a tiny baby.

I often don’t want to though, and that’s fine.