Let's befriend other women please

[Neveratruerfriend]

I've noticed there are a lot of recent threads about friendships, or lack of them, or feeling excluded from groups. I've also started several threads about these too.

So can I make a plea to those of you who have no worries about your own friendship dynamics, to reach out to those of us that are often in anxiety knots, especially in social situations? Some of my suggestions are:

If you are having a conversation as a small group and someone is hovering on the edges but clearly is not part of the conversation, could you lead them in? Eg here is my friend X, she's also a keen runner (or share 1 relevant fact about X so she can join in). Often I've seen groups turn their back on some poor soul (often it's been me) and it is absolutley excruciating

Similarly at a networking event, if you see someone sitting on their own, it may really make their day if you stopped and had a chat with them - why do most people find this so hard to do?

If at a big party in a restaurant, where the table forms 2 lines. If 3 of you are having a chat, please avoid turning your back on the person on the other side of you as you are completely excluding them from being able to contribute to the conversation (and then that person is left looking like billy no mates).

Also on your whatsapp groups, maybe check what is going on. For example find out who is in the group? Who is doing most of the talking or getting most responses? Who is possibly being left out, ignored or excluded?

So what I'm asking is for the socially confident people (social butterflies etc) to please hone up their empathy skills and observe when someone may need just a little help to feel included.

I know some may argue it's tough, these wallflowers need to look after themselves and make more of an effort to join in. But how do you know that they're not willing, or even trying? But when I sit there and I'm the one that's presented with someone's back to me, it's kind of awkward to interrupt?

@MrsPelligrinoPetrichor

I don't disagree - of course we all need to make an effort and take responsibility for our own actions in social situations. But as Waybill has said:

*Maybe not a requirement, but surely it is bad manners and very impolite to sit with your back to someone else sitting next to you at a table all evening, or to blithely ignore someone on the periphery of a group looking lost.

I think the OP is just suggesting that people show everyday courtesy and consideration towards others.*

I know what you mean. I think quite a lot of people never got the memo that it's really rude at formal social events (and some less formal ones) to talk only to people on one side, only to people you already know, not introduce yourself and not introduce others. It's why I dodge weddings if I can, because unless you share a lot of friends with the couple, sometimes no-one will talk to you. So boring!

I've got an older friend who's brilliant at all this. I might ask her where she learnt it from next time I see her. She's a great guest.

I have a SIL who doesn't even greet you when she comes into the room (pre pandemic, we would meet at our mutual inlaws a few times a year). Yet she's a very kind and thoughtful person. She sends lovely gifts, volunteers etc. I eventually assumed she'd never been told it's rude.

I think we’d all accept that’s decent behaviour @waybill - do you think imploring unnamed women to stop doing this collectively, on a MN thread, is going to achieve anything? Oh if ONLY there could be world peace and you’d ALL stop littering Britain’s beauty spots!

@Neveratruerfriend

Anyone is free to contact me

Well lots of us write stuff all over MN, so possibly we're hoping to achieve something?

Erk... The thought of a world in which everyone is trying to befriend "loners" (like me) sounds horrible. Some of the people lurking quietly at the edges are very happy there!

I can guarantee that until you take full ownership for the state of your friendships and accept it’s up to YOU rather than for “other people” to change, you will be as frustrated and disappointed with the way you are treated by others in ten years time as you are now.

I agree with you. Having been in situations where I've been left sitting next to two backs on either side of me at a dinner or where I've contributed to a group conversation only to have the group immediately zone out and start to chat to each other usually with just one person acknowledging what I've said, I've come to the conclusion that some extroverted social butterflies just want to talk and have little interest in actually listening to far less including other quieter people.

For example, work night out, somehow ended up next to a department of people I get on with but don't work closely with. They were falling over themselves trying to dominate the conversation and it ended up sounding like a series of interlaced monologues. Maybe extroverts could acknowledge that not everyone is comfortable loudly interjecting in conversations.

And have you addressed men with this same advice?
Been on dadsnet and said the same?

I see what you're saying OP and in a way, I agree with you.
But your post comes across as patronising and projecting massively.
It seems the same as telling all women to 'be kind '

Yes, some of your OP goes well beyond politeness or friendliness and sounds like ‘emotional labour’ - exhausting!

Maybe extroverts could acknowledge that not everyone is comfortable loudly interjecting in conversations.
Or maybe introverts should realise that people are not going to have a personality transplant to accommodate them? Surely if extroverted people are expected to tone it down by the same logic introverts can be expected to be more socially outgoing?

@Ionlydomassiveones

“Maybe extroverts could acknowledge that not everyone is comfortable loudly interjecting in conversations.”

Extroverts, especially ones on a night out having a good time haven’t got to do jack shit. You are not precious and special because you’re ‘quiet’. Just interrupt and be the voice of wit and charisma - or don’t. But your level of ‘comfort’ around socialising is on you. It’s not other people’s responsibility.

And frankly, only people who completely misunderstand the nature of extroversion and are introversion say this kind of thing, anyway. The difference is in how you refuel, not whether you’re loud when out. You wouldn’t necessarily be able to distinguish an introvert from an extrovert in company.

@Silenceisgolden20

I see what you're saying OP and in a way, I agree with you. But your post comes across as patronising and projecting massively. It seems the same as telling all women to 'be kind '

No one ever did say that. It was/is 'be kind', not 'women, be kind'.

OP, I couldn't agree more, and some of the cynical responses on here really sadden me. No wonder this country has a mental health crisis.

The responses aren’t cynical, they’re honest and realistic. But if you’re the kind of person who’s spent the last week tutting about the selfishness of “other people” over the fuel crisis, and who posts to randomers instructing us all using the power of internet memes to just be a bit kinder and then the world would be a better place… well, there’s no reaching you.

Because as individuals we are all other people. There is no us and them. There are no coherent groups of queen bees cackling inwardly at the poor hapless introverts, and all the tutting online in the world won’t change the way we relate to that world.

I think I understand what you mean, OP.
I feel socially anxious often and have been on both sides. I've stood on the periphery of a group of people who were too wrapped up in their conversations or lacked the manners to let me in, feeling uncomfortable and a bit miserable.
And the other week I was in the pub with work, and got wrapped up in a 1-2-1 conversation with my colleague. I vaguely noticed that the person next to her who is quite new at work didn't have anyone to talk to, but as I was deep into the catch up with my colleague I didn't bring the other woman into the convo.
She looked a bit forlorn so I made a point of chatting to her on the way to our cars afterwards.
My point is, it's not always possible to remain aware of who isn't being included as sometimes people get carried away in their conversation. But you're right, a bit of kindness and some manners go a long way and can make the difference between people feeling awkward and left out, and having a good time.

'My point is, it's not always possible to remain aware of who isn't being included as sometimes people get carried away in their conversation'

Was going to say the same thing. I'm an introvert who enjoys social occasions and will happily chat as long as people show an interest back. But inevitably it sometimes happens that everyone else is engaged in conversation except me, and yes, it feels horrible and as if everyone is ignoring me. But I know that is not correct, because when I am involved in chatting, I am concentrating too hard to notice people being, supposedly, 'left out ', especially if it's a noisy environment and I need to work even harder to focus on what they're saying.

The table thing, definitely. At a Christmas night out a couple of years ago the head of our department, who is so much older than the rest of us, was sitting at the end of the table and the woman beside her had turned and completely cut the boss off from everyone. It was a bloody sin.

That's why I prefer meeting my friend(s) 1 to 1.

When we get each other's full attention

At the wedding, yes, I make sure I talk to everyone who sits near, opposite, and around me.

For what it’s worth OP, and for all the dissent on this thread (which I’m slightly taken aback at), I completely agree with you.

TLDR: just be a nice person who is concerned about others

@Ionlydomassiveones

But your level of ‘comfort’ around socialising is on you. It’s not other people’s responsibility.

This thread though is asking whether those who are comfortable with socialising could use their overtness which allows them to dominate conversations to ensure that all present are included.

@JustGiveMeGin
Surely if extroverted people are expected to tone it down by the same logic introverts can be expected to be more socially outgoing?

Maybe it's a two way thing, the extrovert is not expected to do anything to include the introvert but if the introvert does contribute to the conversation then the extrovert should at least listen to and acknowledge that they've spoken and not zone out or speak over them.

Showing manners is everyone's responsibility.