Let's befriend other women please

[Neveratruerfriend]

I've noticed there are a lot of recent threads about friendships, or lack of them, or feeling excluded from groups. I've also started several threads about these too.

So can I make a plea to those of you who have no worries about your own friendship dynamics, to reach out to those of us that are often in anxiety knots, especially in social situations? Some of my suggestions are:

If you are having a conversation as a small group and someone is hovering on the edges but clearly is not part of the conversation, could you lead them in? Eg here is my friend X, she's also a keen runner (or share 1 relevant fact about X so she can join in). Often I've seen groups turn their back on some poor soul (often it's been me) and it is absolutley excruciating

Similarly at a networking event, if you see someone sitting on their own, it may really make their day if you stopped and had a chat with them - why do most people find this so hard to do?

If at a big party in a restaurant, where the table forms 2 lines. If 3 of you are having a chat, please avoid turning your back on the person on the other side of you as you are completely excluding them from being able to contribute to the conversation (and then that person is left looking like billy no mates).

Also on your whatsapp groups, maybe check what is going on. For example find out who is in the group? Who is doing most of the talking or getting most responses? Who is possibly being left out, ignored or excluded?

So what I'm asking is for the socially confident people (social butterflies etc) to please hone up their empathy skills and observe when someone may need just a little help to feel included.

I know some may argue it's tough, these wallflowers need to look after themselves and make more of an effort to join in. But how do you know that they're not willing, or even trying? But when I sit there and I'm the one that's presented with someone's back to me, it's kind of awkward to interrupt?

@ibelieveinmirrorballs

The responses aren’t cynical, they’re honest and realistic. But if you’re the kind of person who’s spent the last week tutting about the selfishness of “other people” over the fuel crisis, and who posts to randomers instructing us all using the power of internet memes to just be a bit kinder and then the world would be a better place… well, there’s no reaching you.

Because as individuals we are all other people. There is no us and them. There are no coherent groups of queen bees cackling inwardly at the poor hapless introverts, and all the tutting online in the world won’t change the way we relate to that world.

Well, I disagree with your first sentence. And I don't understand why you find it necessary to sneer. Or how the fuel shortage is relevant to this conversation.

Of course you can't understand the relevance @bringincrazyback - that's my point.

As @Ionlydomassiveones says, any normal and decent human being behaves in the way the OP is suggesting that we should behave. Imploring "other people" as a group to somehow change their behaviour is passive aggressive to all of us who - as individuals - get to reply. I go out of my way to be decent and inclusive to people, but it is really laughable to think of a few people sitting on the sidelines inwardly hating on those of us who appear to be sorted - with no regard for what the truth of the matter might be.

As has been stated elsewhere on this thread, nobody likes networking events. Literally nobody. Almost everyone will be desperately trying to a) avoid being on their own while they do the minimum and b) desperate to leave. But there's no reference to this, absolutely no thought to how things are for other people really, and any instance of someone being ignored is being touted as an outrageous flouting of politeness.

The thing is, life is a bit hard sometimes, and sometimes things happen we don't like. Rather than spend our lives bemoaning this, and posting appeals to women to be a bit kinder on Mumsnet, it might be a better position to take to think 'hey, maybe everyone's doing their best. Maybe if something happens to me I don't like, I would be better off thinking it was inadvertent or at the worst, just one of those things, and dusting myself off and moving onto the next thing'.

I've been ignored at events. I've been to networking things and hated them and stood there feeling like a total plum not talking to anyone. I've been to weddings where I've had backs turned on me. And I've hated every single instance of that. But in life, you kind of have to learn to get up and move, or go home and forget about it eventually, and remember that nobody has it easy in life and none of us get out alive. That in the grand scheme of things it's not the worst thing ever. That kind of thing.

There are lots of ways to help. Name badges, name places, round tables rather than long rectangular ones, buffets rather than formal meals, music that you can speak over without shouting, ice-breaker activities (I went to a 40th where the host had provided a quiz about her life), introducing people to each other and (as the OP suggested) look out for people on their own. It's definitely not something you have to just shrug and accept.

I'm moderately extrovert but that doesn't mean I can just bounce into a room of strangers and have a great time, if they're already deep in conversations about cycling/football/Love Island* *your off-putting topics may vary.

No one ever did say that. It was/is 'be kind', not 'women, be kind'.

OP, I couldn't agree more, and some of the cynical responses on here really sadden me. No wonder this country has a mental health crisis.

Replying to the above, I wrote 'it seems', not it is

And I know the saying is be kind but this has been written on a forum for mostly women, mums, that's why I said women and asked if she had written this on dadsnet too.

Mental health crisis is not from people being rude......what a complete jump.

Some introverts don't want to be spoken to. They couldn't think of anything worse having some stranger yap away at them. So many assumptions.

I love networking events - I love meeting people

@cervixuser

Yes I know, I think a lot of people at my workplace love these events too. A lot of them see it as a time to let their hair down and go for post-conference drinks at the pub. Also many of them work together in the office so once they arrive at the venue they naturally congregate together in their usual huddles.

I WFH so it's always going to be harder to join in. And it goes without saying I always make the effort to make eye contact, smile and look approachable. But once a group is established and they're already deep in conversation, it's not easy to bounce myself in (though if someone in the group sees me on the periphery and invites me in, that's wonderful).

Exactly, @Onelifeonly, that's what I mean

I also agree with @BlueBellsArePretty that we're all responsible for showing manners. Nobody's perfect and it's pointless to agonise over occasionally feeling left out of the conversation but poor behaviour and playground tactics in social events do exist. I've noticed some people enjoy the feeling of social superiority of dominating the conversation or of being the gatekeepers about who is allowed into a group and who isn't. I think for me the marker of good social skills is showing an interest in other people and try as much as you can to be pleasant company at social events.

I work with someone who, in the 7 years I've known her, hasn't asked me a single question about myself. She is local and only talks to others who are local/she was at school with/have children at her children's school. No interest whatsoever in anyone or anything outside of this. Even though she can be chatty with her selective group of people, she's an example of someone who makes life harder for others at social events.

It was never my intention to suggest we should impose conversation on people who actually don't want it. But there are often people who do want to be included but aren't, due either to a lack of awareness or simply lack of manners / poor behaviour.

As for the question of "have you posted this on dadsnet?" I find that a bit odd. This is a site aimed at women so I have directed my post accordingly. Is it too much to expect that people understand (without being told and patronised) that of course this applies to men too. And whilst we're at it, also to children (we all know some kids can be brutal in the playground).

But you're not telling the men too? So how does it apply to men too?
And how do you know the introverts that want to be left alone and the people that want to be included?
You don't. Too many assumptions.

It is patronising to go on a mums forum and tell mums how to behave.

Women are not responsible for other peoples behaviour.

Be a good person, I get that. By all means, be that. But don't preach it.

There are countless threads on MN discussing behaviour and what posters consider to be both desirable and undesirable.

So you are saying then, to be fully inclusive, that all MN posters should post the same on dadsnet?

@Silenceisgolden20

And you're preaching at me here.

When I started reading this thread I knew I was going to get cross. OP I think what you are saying is right and kind and a good starting point for a discussion but a lot of the responses on here are from angry, defensive people who just enjoy sneering at people.

Like a lot of the threads over the last few weeks there is a core of people who just come on to slag off someone for being so stupid as to start a discussion on a discussion forum. They aren't willing to argue in a constructive way. It's like they can't even open their minds to thinking something different and just go on the attack. When someone puts a topic up for discussion they get accused of preaching or patronising or yapping. It's exceptionally depressing. Are these the people who won't try to be decent in real life, or do they get all their aggressiveness out online?

Now I'm older and more confident I absolutely do try and include people who look like they are stuck out on their own at events. Sometimes it works and sometimes not. Not everyone will appreciate it but I'd feel awkward if I didn't. I didn't feel I could when I was younger I think.

Mental health crisis is not from people being rude......what a complete jump.

Erm, it really isn't. I sometimes struggle with my mental health and I can tell you straight up that the general rudeness and abrasiveness with which a lot of people behave can be a factor.

Like a lot of the threads over the last few weeks there is a core of people who just come on to slag off someone for being so stupid as to start a discussion on a discussion forum. They aren't willing to argue in a constructive way. It's like they can't even open their minds to thinking something different and just go on the attack. When someone puts a topic up for discussion they get accused of preaching or patronising or yapping. It's exceptionally depressing. Are these the people who won't try to be decent in real life, or do they get all their aggressiveness out online?

This. In spades. And it's getting really tiresome. I'll probably be flayed for saying that too, but wtf.

agree, @DeclineandFall

Age for me made a difference too in confidence levels, until Covid. Now I'm struggling a bit returning to that mindset. I'm feeling more socially anxious again and prefer 1 2 1 meet-ups or small groups to larger events.

I find it just extraordinary that anyone would think the best approach to finding people abrasive is to try to think you can prevent it happening to you by imploring people to change.

The best approach is to find a way to develop some resilience. If someone is rude, move. Say something, move away, find a way for your mental health to be minimally impacted.

Or, I don’t know, continue to blame everyone else for their terrible behaviour and hold your breath waiting for things to improve.

Adopting a them and us victim stance gets you nowhere. Most people find themselves sometimes on the periphery. Most of us try our hardest to be nice. There is no group of confident people sneering at the less confident.

Have a read of the thread today te college/uni cliques and think about your response. There absolutely are groups of people out there who do sneer at unconfident people and are socially hostile. Whether a post on this forum is going to change that is unlikely but to keep being adamant it doesnt happen is insulting to the people it does happen too. If your not like this then chill and carry on as you were.

I think we all encounter a range of people, some friendly, some not so friendly.

The trouble is the unpleasant or awkward experiences tend to make more of an impact.

I have had many horrible social experiences. Ones where you are sweating with embarrassment and want the ground to swallow you up. I went to a book group at the library. I sat down, and twice was asked to move “so we can sit together”. They were all in a semicircle and I was on a lone seat behind . At half time I was ignored, in spite of standing there with a manic “pleasant” expression, and when I reached the coffee dispensing person (last in line) she snapped that they’d run out. I am still dying of humiliation!

I think this is a good OP. I am socially average - OK, but not brilliant - and Iam definitely guilty of fretting too much about myself at social events and not thinking about other people there who might be feeling nervous or left out and how I could support them.

@tootiredtospeak you only have one persons perception of any situation on a MN post and judging by the impressions on here - that being ignored means by definition the other person is rude - it’s going to be biased to say the least.

It reminds me of Stephen Fry’s classic saying that whilst everyone has the right to be offended by something, in itself it’s completely meaningless and subjective. It’s not an objective fact.

Social skills need to be worked on like any other skill! Nobody can do it for you.

Sometimes trying to include people can feel a bit like babysitting if they won’t interact with anyone else in the group and it ruins the occasion somewhat.

I wouldn’t ever be rude to someone or embarrass them but I’d expect an adult to be able to hold a conversation, which 50% of the time involves actually starting said conversation.

@ibelieveinmirrorballs

I find it just extraordinary that anyone would think the best approach to finding people abrasive is to try to think you can prevent it happening to you by imploring people to change.

The best approach is to find a way to develop some resilience. If someone is rude, move. Say something, move away, find a way for your mental health to be minimally impacted.

Or, I don’t know, continue to blame everyone else for their terrible behaviour and hold your breath waiting for things to improve.

Adopting a them and us victim stance gets you nowhere. Most people find themselves sometimes on the periphery. Most of us try our hardest to be nice. There is no group of confident people sneering at the less confident.

Are you quite sure about that? Because your posts have sounded quite sneery in places.

And 'developing some resilience' is harder for some people than it is for others.

Personally nothing I've read on this thread has dissuaded me from believing it would be a nicer world if people showed a little more consideration for the feelings of others. And nothing will.

@ibelieveinmirrorballs

I find it just extraordinary that anyone would think the best approach to finding people abrasive is to try to think you can prevent it happening to you by imploring people to change.

The best approach is to find a way to develop some resilience. If someone is rude, move. Say something, move away, find a way for your mental health to be minimally impacted.

Or, I don’t know, continue to blame everyone else for their terrible behaviour and hold your breath waiting for things to improve.

Adopting a them and us victim stance gets you nowhere. Most people find themselves sometimes on the periphery. Most of us try our hardest to be nice. There is no group of confident people sneering at the less confident.

I agree with you, as someone who was brought up to be a shy little mouse by a timid, socially ill-at-ease mother who abhors confidence in girls and women, and who had to figure out social skills from scratch in my 20s. It was, and is, nobody’s job to babysit me socially because I was taught some deeply odd and unhelpful childhood scripts.

We’ve all had hideous, humiliating social situations like the one @DottyHarmer describes so well — which mirrors exactly my experience of baby groups in the village we moved to when I was on maternity leave — but ultimately, I had to recognise that, yes, this was an insular, unwelcoming situation, and those people had poor social skills, but I wasn’t going to get anywhere by simply blaming other people, when in fact, these people and I were simply too different for friendships to form. As the same people were involved in all local voluntary stuff, pub, church etc, and were the parents of DS’s classmates when he started school, I will admit it was a lonely eight years from that POV, but I made friends through work in the city, and did actually discover a few kindred spirits in the village shortly before we moved away.

No one was at fault, really. I do think that it being a place with little movement in from people from elsewhere meant that the inhabitants social skills were blunted in that they had no real concept of having to introduce themselves to someone who was a complete stranger — because in essence, they’d all known one another forever, and virtually everyone’s extended family lived in the vicinity — but ultimately, it was no one’s job to make me feel at home, and I’d have had a far worse time if I’d adopted a victim mentality.

… and nothing on this thread has dissuaded me that choosing to develop ones own resilience is vastly more likely to yield results than shaking ones fist at the sky wishing the world were different.

But yes, carry on saying it’s too hard! I can’t develop resilience! Five years ago I had to learn to do public speaking for my job. I couldn’t even speak in a small meeting without feeling sick. All the training and mentoring I was lucky enough to receive at work said the same - you need to practice, put yourself out there, expose yourself to risk. It’s the same advice I give my children whilst encouraging them and comforting them when things don’t go their way. It’s not good enough to say developing resilience is too hard. It’s a life skill and we all need to find gentle ways to push ourselves out of our comfort zones so we grow as people. I’m not an extrovert - I’m an introvert. But I firmly believe in order to grow and develop this “it’s too hard!” mantra leads to stagnancy and is infantilising.

I agree that it's bad for your own mental health to see it as a "them and me" situation. (Or a sign that someone is suffering from poor mental health, of course.)

When you see someone apparently chatting easily at a party, that could be someone like me, who would once have had a panic attack in a corner (or stayed at home feeling crap) but has since learned techniques for socialising despite still suffering social anxiety. And if someone walks past you without speaking, it might be because they are knackered from the effort of socialising, or because they can socialise but not to the extent of approaching a stranger, or because they don't want to embarrass you, or because they are good at talking but can't read social cues, or because they think you look a bit scary, etc. etc. etc.

That is, it may really make their day if you stopped and had a chat with them - why do most people find this so hard to do has a simple answer in many cases: they find it so hard for the same reason you are finding it hard. They may be like you, just hiding it better. If you assume they are just being lazy, rude or thoughtless ... what's to stop them thinking that you are not speaking because you are snobby, rude, etc.?