Let's befriend other women please

[Neveratruerfriend]

I've noticed there are a lot of recent threads about friendships, or lack of them, or feeling excluded from groups. I've also started several threads about these too.

So can I make a plea to those of you who have no worries about your own friendship dynamics, to reach out to those of us that are often in anxiety knots, especially in social situations? Some of my suggestions are:

If you are having a conversation as a small group and someone is hovering on the edges but clearly is not part of the conversation, could you lead them in? Eg here is my friend X, she's also a keen runner (or share 1 relevant fact about X so she can join in). Often I've seen groups turn their back on some poor soul (often it's been me) and it is absolutley excruciating

Similarly at a networking event, if you see someone sitting on their own, it may really make their day if you stopped and had a chat with them - why do most people find this so hard to do?

If at a big party in a restaurant, where the table forms 2 lines. If 3 of you are having a chat, please avoid turning your back on the person on the other side of you as you are completely excluding them from being able to contribute to the conversation (and then that person is left looking like billy no mates).

Also on your whatsapp groups, maybe check what is going on. For example find out who is in the group? Who is doing most of the talking or getting most responses? Who is possibly being left out, ignored or excluded?

So what I'm asking is for the socially confident people (social butterflies etc) to please hone up their empathy skills and observe when someone may need just a little help to feel included.

I know some may argue it's tough, these wallflowers need to look after themselves and make more of an effort to join in. But how do you know that they're not willing, or even trying? But when I sit there and I'm the one that's presented with someone's back to me, it's kind of awkward to interrupt?

Usually I find these situations so exhausting that I really don't have the extra headspace and energy to worry about someone else's anxiety, nerves, imposter syndrome and other perceived limitations as well as my own.

It's hard I know but helping yourself overcome your own barriers is really important. People do try to include others where possible, (I do if I notice, but often I'm just trying to get through the process in one piece myself), but ultimately the responsibility lies with you to develop strategies that work.

Otherwise you martyr yourself to your anxiety. I speak from experience!

It doesnt have to be one or the other though does it. Include people when you can and feel up to it dont if your having an off day and you dont. The point is if you see someone who is alone within a social setting or group give them a smile or nod or say hello. If they dont want to know it will be obvious but you have tried. They can be working on themselves all day long but may not feel like they have a window of opportunity which is clear from the other thread on here today.

It's basic social etiquette to be polite and exchange pleasantries with everyone. Those who turn their back on people at a table are just rude. In other circumstances I like to go about my business without being caught up with every group or conversation and I assume a lot of people are the same. I find myself eyes glazing over, cringing with the thoughts of I can't be arsed listening to you while not wanting to be rude rushing away.

It is lovely to be invited and be included into a new group though but before I did it, I would get to know the person at first as they might not want it and find it hard to say thanks but no thanks.

It's a fab post OP looking forward to hearing the various opinions however harsh 😂

I absolutely agree that we should be much more pleasant to people and see if they would like to be included or not. I am also a big advocate of introducing myself because I find in the UK you only find out names by osmosis

'Friendship groups' I don't really compute. It seems there's a great deal of totally unavoidable and unnecessary angst surrounding these, although I can empathise with how horrible it is when one person is isolated and excluded from the group. We've evolved to be a social species - this has been intrinsic to our very survival - so I do think that humans in general have a primeval need to belong.

Simple good manners would preclude me from carrying in a conversation with 2-3 people at a dinner table or turning my back on anyone in these circumstances. In anyone's book, that's simply rude.

As to WhatsApp I'm in a number of groups. If I don't take an active part, that's because I don't want to. I don't want people 'reaching out', or trying to hold my hand if I'm not actively joining in. It would get properly on my tits.

Behaving like an adult, taking responsibility for your own conduct, and maintaining basic civility and good manners, seems to be the compromise you are looking for here.

No one is going to admit to being an arsehole who intentionally excludes others though, are they? There are the people just like you mention who do intentionally exclude others. Whether they admit to it or not.

Personally, I am someone who likes to be alone. I assume that other people who are alone are like me. I don't want to 'join in' or make friends. Generally I am only at social settings that serve another purpose (eg I am picking my kids up from school, I am going to watch a film). I see socialising as superfluous to what I actually want to do.

No one is going to admit to being an arsehole who intentionally excludes others though, are they? There are the people just like you mention who do intentionally exclude others. Whether they admit to it or not.

Certainly they are, but I'm assuming that the OP doesn't think that the shy/socially-awkward people she's writing about are desperate to make friends with an asshole who lacks basic manners?

Good stuff but you never know one of the assholes might be on here thinking shit that's me. I dont make any effort to be nice to anyone and now I will. Slim chance I know but still.

The rest of it will be the ones who are nice genuine people who probably do have their own set of friends and dont always remember to include people. Sometimes we do need a reminder to be inclusive.

Interesting thread. I think people have to be minded to socialise at that moment and I try not to take it personally when they don’t. That said there are more and less friendly parts of the world and social groups (and schools and workplaces etc) so part of it just be cultural. I think it’s important to think about the bigger picture of you want to socialise. Who cares if you make the first move and it falls flat? Nothing to lose. You then have a nice chat or you know who’s not worth your time or head space so it takes the mystery out it.

I'm so glad to see people talking about this.

It's not about forcing interaction on people who don't want it, it's about observation and looking out for bodily clues that someone appearing along is uncomfortable (or is trying to join in but when everyone's turned their back on them it is hard to tap on someone's shoulder and interrupt the group).

And it's also about good manners, just making that little bit of effort to check that you haven't turned your back on someone in a group; or acknowledging someone's presence with a greeting or a smile.

I’m quite shy and socially anxious. Oddly I come across as sociable generally and sometimes a bit stuck up snobby.I’m not but I tend to not make eye contact stand apart when I don’t feel like I know anyone well enough to insert myself into the group or conversation. Perseverance is key, not everyone you talk to will be your friend. However if you don’t talk to anyone no one will be. You really do need to put yourself out there. It’s harder with COVID as people have a stranger danger thing going on.

@ibelieveinmirrorballs

I’ve reread your post and am still a bit gobsmacked that you think there are these groups of people nailing it at social events while the poor shy people flounder on the sidelines. Everybody - literally everybody - hates networking events. If you are there thinking “well it’s alright for THEM what about poor little me!?” you are on a hiding to nothing.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with my therapist (yes, people who appear socially confident have therapists!) about how I was going to stop dating people because I was finding it too painful because of the way SOME people had behaved towards me. He gently tried to tell me that I could either go through life expecting everyone to change and be permanently disappointed by them, or develop my resilience to being let down or disappointed. (Or stop trying to connect with other people at all, which is clearly not what he was going to recommend I do..)

Just this. Everyone I know who goes to networking events gets shitfaced or runs away as quickly as possible.

I agree with that @Ionlydomassiveones. I get quite put off reaching out when I read here about people trying to avoid interactions on the school run, or calling groups of people who talk to each other cliques with Queen Bees.

When DS was younger I organised a few full class Mums nights outs, but then read a thread recently where apparently that was wrong and exclusionary and I should have invited all the DFs as well.

I also read a lot of threads where people feel they are on the periphery of groups, but never instigate any get togethers or even one to one meet ups.

Unfortunately making friends does involve putting yourself out there a bit and not expecting others to do it all for you.

if you see someone sitting on their own, it may really make their day if you stopped and had a chat with them - why do most people find this so hard to do?
This reminds me of a time I went to a Christmas social event alone, joining a group of people I didn't know, and boldly sat down with a quiet-looking guy and his even quieter wife, sat alone. I asked a polite question to get into the conversation and he snapped at me in a really weird way as if I should have known the answer. I almost gave up immediately or snapped something back, but was determined to be polite so kept at it. After a while it became clear that he must have been on the spectrum, and I settled into a weird, difficult conversation in which he quoted very precise figures for very obscure statistics on a subject that was my speciality, not his - it was extremely hard work!
Conversation is hard for everyone. That's why people tend to gravitate towards easy conversation partners.

As a teenager and young woman I was extremely socially anxious to the extent that I would not actually be able to speak at all in some situations and people laughed at me, made rude comments etc. Partly to deal with this, I became a TEFL teacher, which put me in a situation where I was in control of conversations and people were very accepting of weird conversational openers etc. as you were just practising the language. It was a really good way of practising conversations, and I would even address a large crowd of people. So these days I feel confident enough to be able to walk into a room of strangers and talk to them as with this guy and his wife.

Because of my experience, I do also make a point of speaking to anyone who seems quiet, or offering them a way into the conversation. But that's not how I became more confident, and I know it won't make them become more confident - and if they realise they are being treated as incapable, it could potentially make them feel bad, too.

You'd get a lot out of actively working on your confidence.

I recently attended the work's annual conference event, held again this year by zoom for obvious reasons. Oh, it was bliss! I hate networking events with a passion.

My counsellor once suggested at such events, could I actively help up, eg run a stall? I thought that was a brilliant suggestion, and then Covid happened.

Running a stall sounds like a great idea. It really helps to have some sort of task or reason for talking to people. Are you still doing Zoom meetings in the UK? If not, time to dust off your name badge.

So your then-husband acted like a dick in a social situation and your response is that wo.en should be nicer/change their behaviour. Nice bit of internalised misogyny there.

I second all those saying that it's a hiding to nothing to decide that the world is magically divided into the socially confident and socially unconfident and expecting the socially confident to do all the work for you. Connecting with people is a learned and learnable skill. The people who are good at it are good at it because they worked at it and put themselves out there. If you want to have friends and social groups, you need to do the same.

I also find it thoroughly annoying when people, by their own description, don't proactively reach out to others, don't volunteer information or initiate conversation, don't suggest socialising, and then get upset when the people who do do those things develop friendships and socialise together and start throwing "cliques" and "bullying" around. People being friends with other people who are not you are not doing anything wrong. If you want to be friends with someone, do something about it.

@user1471457751

You've just made a massive assumption about me that is unfair.

I told that story to emphasise how badly it can affect someone to be totally disregarded in company. The fact it was my ex, who happens to be a man, is incidental.

All I have said here applies equally to men too. The only reason I have appealed directly to women is that MNs is a predominantly women's site.

We’ve all been there OP - if you think some of escape this kind of treatment you’re mistaken.

The fact you’re still so upset about it suggests to me you could do with focusing on your resilience rather than starting threads on MN trying to get the world to change to lessen the disappointment you feel with it - as I mentioned in a previous post.

Things like that will always happen. Some people are sometimes inconsiderate. Sometimes this is because they’re generally thoughtless and sometimes it’s because they’ve had a shit day or are just distracted. It’s never about you and you’ll never stop it happening. It’s therefore far more productive to focus on the things you CAN control - such as your ability to shrug off such incidents and walk away smiling.

@ibelieveinmirrorballs

You can’t make your feelings of exclusion about other people’s behaviour, and require “everyone else” to change in order for you to feel better.

I know that sounds harsh but honestly, it’s a futile endeavour!

Maybe not a requirement, but surely it is bad manners and very impolite to sit with your back to someone else sitting next to you at a table all evening, or to blithely ignore someone on the periphery of a group looking lost.

I think the OP is just suggesting that people show everyday courtesy and consideration towards others.

@Shoxfordian

I include people when I can but you have to make the effort too op. It’s not enough to just decide you’re shy and so everyone else should make sure you’re included

I agree.

People who are that way inclined do it anyway. People who are not, wont no matter what is said. Some will actively go out of their way to be nasty because that is who they are.