Be honest. If a man expected you...

[AWiseWomanOnceSaidFuckThisShit]

to split the bill on a first date would it put you off?

No, it's 2021

A lot of the comments re gender quality on this thread are based on the British culture, with universal education, two salaries required by many for a mortgage etc

Those who say "Well, move with the times" and biology has moved on don't seem to be taking into account the true evolution of human behaviours, as so much of the world do not live in this priviledged and expensive environment. So it will be a discrete, short term culture change for abject few.

@sofato5miles

A lot of the comments re gender quality on this thread are based on the British culture, with universal education, two salaries required by many for a mortgage etc

Those who say "Well, move with the times" and biology has moved on don't seem to be taking into account the true evolution of human behaviours, as so much of the world do not live in this priviledged and expensive environment. So it will be a discrete, short term culture change for abject few.

1. I don't think anyone's said that biology has moved on. It hasn't. But most people are able to rationalise and ignore biological impulses.
2. What's your point? People living in liberalised societies where women are afforded educational and employment rights, among others, are going to take advantage of those rights and act accordingly. It's a UK based sight, the majority of people responding will be based either in the UK or in other Western countries.

Well, I, for one, do not 🤷🏻‍♀️
It just sounds a very broad brush approach, whilst at the same time, insular.

I agree with those writing about suppressing biological impulses though. We all do that, all the time. Though many seem to be arguing that those impulses have disappeared, which i disagree with.

God I fucking love MN pseudo-anthropology.

Pseudo-anthropology in general has a lot to answer for. One of the main oversights being: just because you can produce a convincing case that certain behaviours are rooted in evolutionary processes, doesn't mean that they are the only behaviours we're capable of; that there might not be very different behaviours also rooted in other evolutionary processes, or that one such set of processes must be more "real" than all the others.

Eg. if men all want feminine women to raise their children, and women all want strong men to provide for their children, why do people continue to go out dating and look for a new mate after they've already had their children, split from the other parent and don't want any more?

Why do gay people date, form relationships and have sex?

Shock horror, there could be more than one contributing factor to human motivation.

Yes it would put me off. I'm aware it sounds old fashioned and sexist but experience in the dating arena has shown me that men who offer to pay tend to be more serious about wanting a relationship and be interested in you than those who don't.

Eg. if men all want feminine women to raise their children, and women all want strong men to provide for their children, why do people continue to go out dating and look for a new mate after they've already had their children, split from the other parent and don't want any more?

I never said "all" men or "all" women want anything.

@Comedycook

Eg. if men all want feminine women to raise their children, and women all want strong men to provide for their children, why do people continue to go out dating and look for a new mate after they've already had their children, split from the other parent and don't want any more?

I never said "all" men or "all" women want anything.

But you've repeatedly said we're all animals, and can't 'opt out of our biological desires'. That sounds like 'all'.

Yes. It would be the last date.

In my youth I'd have said I didn't mind. However every guy I've ever dated who wanted to split the bill turned out to be a tight wad. A guy should want to impress the woman he's taking out. If he can't afford to buy you a meal then he shouldn't be dating!

A guy should want to impress the woman he's taking out.

For sure, but you're assuming he's the instigator., hence his job to 'impress'. If they've met OLD and have agreed to go out, or the woman asks him out, should she be equally prepared to 'impress the man she's taking out' by flashing her wallet about?

I frown upon men who don't offer to pay. Most men on dates I speak to about this say "they'd feel embarrassed going Dutch or it's an insult offering to pay". Several also pay your taxi home. If I were a man this would be my mentality too. I've spoken about this to friends too, we all agree we'd be embarrassed if we were men asking a women to go Dutch. I have persevered in relationships when we've gone Dutch but it's hard to treat a man the same once they've taken this approach. The feminine/masculine energy is lost and I lose respect for them. These types are usually quite happy to have a woman paying more than their share too, I've tested it. They honestly would just take take take, they've absolutely no shame! In a way friends of the same sex would never do. It's just a dance of courtship, which I absolutely love and I think men do too. Most men like to give compliments and be attentive and pay. I'm self sufficient, have plenty money of my own so money is not the issue here. If you start of on the going Dutch buying rounds, at what point do you get looked after? I assume it's never. It won't improve, that's depressing you'll probably never get flowers or nice gifts, it's just grim! I'd rather stay in on my own, than date like that.

I once had a man say "well you wanted equality" as the bill for my soup and Diet Coke came with his large meal with starter and several drinks". He owned a factory so hardly skint, but it transpired he had a daughter he doesn't see and in general had low morales and poor attitude towards women, a total scrub! His attitude to woman was not one of equality, quite the opposite! I declined the next date. Him paying wouldn't have changed that but he was never going to be the type that cherished a woman in any way.

@LargeBouquet

A guy should want to impress the woman he's taking out.

For sure, but you're assuming he's the instigator., hence his job to 'impress'. If they've met OLD and have agreed to go out, or the woman asks him out, should she be equally prepared to 'impress the man she's taking out' by flashing her wallet about?

Then she’ll be doing all the initiating and chasing after him in the relationship. Fine if that’s what she wants but I’d prefer to see the guy make the effort initially before I invest my feelings and spares me the anxiety of ‘does he like me’ we see on so many threads. When a man likes you they show you through their actions. I’m all for equality but would rather know I’m onto a good thing before my feelings take a battering

This thread is a total eye opener on why some women end up in disastrously unequal relationships unable to figure out how they ended up in a cycle of drudgery

100% agree. Some of the attitudes on here are really Victorian. Look at how many threads there are on here about 'male providers' turning into financially abusive arseholes.

When I was young and dated I would never agree to dinner for a first date but whatever we did I would insist on paying my share even back in the 1960s.

If you start of on the going Dutch buying rounds, at what point do you get looked after? I assume it's never. It won't improve, that's depressing you'll probably never get flowers or nice gifts, it's just grim! I'd rather stay in on my own, than date like that.

I don’t need looking after in a relationship. Why would I any more so than DH? I’ve still been bought flowers and nice presents.

Paying your own way on dates doesn’t rule out doing nice things for each other.

I've spoken about this to friends too, we all agree we'd be embarrassed if we were men asking a women to go Dutch.

I would never need a man to ask me to go Dutch because I’ve always assumed I’d be paying for myself/splitting halves if we’ve eaten and drunk similarly.

And I always paid half if I didn’t like them on first date ! Otherwise, it’s unfair on them as they have to take multiple women out who don’t pay

Women shouldn't be shamed for wanting a traditional relationship with all that entails if that's what they choose.

Bloody hell @dontwantausername that’s because you’ve met a few arseholes nothing to do with paying.

What do you mean by ‘looked after’? I am not some precious delicate flower that needs a man to care for me otherwise I’ll wilt.

I’m capable of caring for myself.

Yes, I'd be terminally put off.

@Journeyofthedragons

Women shouldn't be shamed for wanting a traditional relationship with all that entails if that's what they choose.

Why shouldn't they? Nothing wrong with pointing out that getting off on pretending to be a fragile little thing who needs protection from the world of work and money and big, manly things, has consequences, and not very nice ones.

These types are usually quite happy to have a woman paying more than their share too, I've tested it. They honestly would just take take take, they've absolutely no shame!
You're quite happy to have them pay the entirety of the bill. How shameless does that make you?

@Crankley

This thread is a total eye opener on why some women end up in disastrously unequal relationships unable to figure out how they ended up in a cycle of drudgery

100% agree. Some of the attitudes on here are really Victorian. Look at how many threads there are on here about 'male providers' turning into financially abusive arseholes.

When I was young and dated I would never agree to dinner for a first date but whatever we did I would insist on paying my share even back in the 1960s.

It’s not about being a provider , it’s about romance. Being taken out and valued. I think most women and men, when they both like each other, are happy to do this for the first few dates. I get so bored with this whole you must be a 1950s housewife etc yawn 🥱 My dh is a sahp and I work by choice. I’m the antithesis of a 50s housewife. I still expected him to pick up the first few tabs to show his interest in me and as he had asked me out those times. I’d contribute to a few drinks. I always made the point to offer to go halves every date and only those where we didn’t have a spark took that up or if I didn’t like them I pushed to go halves. After a few dates then I would always pay my share also. Those first few dates set the expectation of how you should be treated and they are lucky to get a date with you 😁

@Journeyofthedragons

Women shouldn't be shamed for wanting a traditional relationship with all that entails if that's what they choose.

“Shamed” is a loaded word.

I don’t think any woman should turn up to a date expecting a man to pay because he’s a man. Women behaving like this are embarrassing to all women. It keeps us in the delicate little flower box and affects how we’re seen in other areas of life. I don’t see why I can’t say that.

Why shouldn't they? Nothing wrong with pointing out that getting off on pretending to be a fragile little thing who needs protection from the world of work and money and big, manly things, has consequences, and not very nice ones

Nothing wrong with pointing it out at all, it's certainly not for me but at the end of the day it's their choice to have the relationship they want.

Definitely would be put off. Most of my friends would say the same and we’re only in our early 20s so not sure how ‘outdated’ a view it really is

they are lucky to get a date with you

No they aren't. I've been on dates with people who I liked, who I was attracted to, and who I thought I might want to pursue a relationship with. Even on dates which fizzled out into nothing, I've never felt contemptuous enough of them to think I was doing them a favour by being there. I was there because I'd wanted to be on a date with them, as I assume they did me.