Can this ever be enough?

[RagRugs]

I've been struggling a lot recently. I've posted on here and had some great advice but much of it seems to be centred around seeking counselling or therapy. I've had both on and off for nearly 30 years and, whilst I've seen minor shifts, it's not really working for me any more. My insight is great. I know exactly why I think and feel the way I do but I don't seem to be able to change it. I can fake it for a while, I have the confidence to ignore some of core beliefs etc but they are still there and, as soon as I'm put under any pressure or challenged, they come back. This is partly because, in some cases and sense, they are true. In others, it's because they have been reinforced so many times and by so many people over the years that I'm almost a lone voice in saying that they're not. Which makes it difficult.

I'm going to try and keep it brief...

I have competing narratives in my head.

On one hand, I have never been loved, I want it and don't see the point in wasting time with men who aren't going to love me and who I'm never going to love. I date men for a short time and then walk when they demonstrate that they don't respect me or will never love me.

But, equally, I should have known these relationships would never result in love or longevity. Every 'relationship' I have ever had has been incompatible with love in some way. There is always a distance - eg emotional; geographical; chronological; intellectual...

But I feel intimidated by, and unworthy of, men who are more my 'equal' or who live closer or are just a more viable option. I feel embarrassed that they might think I'm interested.

I feel more comfortable around married men. I don't flirt with them! I've never been an affair partner and wouldn't. I have too much self respect and too much respect for their wives. But the 'non threatening' aspect of them being unavailable means I find them more comfortable company.

I have been involved with a man for 18 months which is the longest positive experience of a 'relationship' I've ever had. I don't (think I) love him and I know he doesn't love me although there is clearly am attachment there. In many ways, it looks like a relationship. We behave quite 'coupley' when we are out with other couples; we spend every weekend together; we are supportive of each other; he's done many things to show me he cares but, over the last few weeks, it has started to feel a bit empty.

In many ways, this man meets my needs for companionship and I'm sure I do for him too. But it's starting to feel a bit 'hollow' without the emotion and commitment to back it up. I don't really want to just to be with someone to fill a mutual void in our lives. I want to be loved.

I know many will say, 'End it and find someone who loves you," But, to me, that's like telling someone to leave their job and win the lottery instead! I've never had what I've got with him before. Nor been loved. It would be unfathomable to me now. Inconceivable that it could happen. I'm not even sure I'd be receptive to it or recognise it.

I feel a bit like those women who post on here who have 2 children but really want a 3rd when their partner says no. The advice is often to leave and find someone who wants that 3rd child with them. When it isn't that simple! Other women tell them to be satisfied with the 2 children they have. What would a 3rd bring that they don't already have with 2? What if they never meet anyone and end up bring up those 2 children alone?

That's how it feels.

It feels like I'd be leaving something that works quite well but is lacking in something I'm yearning for. Something that has ticked along quite nicely for 18 months so far. And for what? The hope that, in my 40s I'll find something I never managed in my 20s and 30s?

The frustrating thing is that he is the person I wanted to discuss this with and process thoughts about it with but because of the situation, I feel like i can't be candid about it.

It's completely consuming me at the moment.

I don't want to lose what I have with this man because it suits us both well for as long as it lasts. I just don't know if it can be enough.

But, equally, I should have known these relationships would never result in love or longevity.

Actually, I did know and that was part of the 'attraction' - the fact it could never become more.

Speak to him.

He might want more, and you might too?

Thank you for your reply.

I'm certain he doesn't want more. Tbh, he's settling which is my greatest relationship fear.

Do you have an avoidant attachment style? You've said that you have previously chosen those who have not been long term prospects. Why does your current partner leave you empty? Is it a slow burning relationship or are there no prospects of anything deeper? Are you unconsciously running away from something meaningful (I don't know-that's for you to decide on). Personally, I would examine your childhood and find out more about what examples were set for you.

You won't find your perceived great love if you stay with him.

So what do you have to lose by challenging him?

I mean yes you could lose the companionship that's the gamble you take.

Not all love is Hollywood movie love you know? By your 40s things are much less swinging from the chandeliers.

There is a lot to be said for easy company, someone who does things for you, weekends together. If you want razzmatazz try, let's jump in the car and drive to the coast today suggestions this weekend, or grab a blanket and look at the stars in your garden on a clear night, talk about "do you think there is someone looking back?" See if he can keep up.

It's been a difficult 18 months, still is really, socially for anyone to be able to be spontaneous or just turn up somewhere and see what happens. You have survived lockdown together, many otherwise happy couples haven't, doesn't that indicate anything to you? Are you sure it isn't lockdown that is frustrating you and not the company? Can you ask him "do you think we would have stayed differently if it hadn't been lockdown?" .....see what he says.

Don't lose something good over thinking there is something Hollywood great for everyone, it's like Disney children they don't exist!

Be the change you want. See what happens.

Dated differently not stayed.

Why are you so certain? You say he has shown you in lots of ways he cares. You spend each weekend together. It’s a positive interaction. But you’re absolutely sure he doesn’t love you and is settling - without ever taking to him about how you really feel.

You say you don’t love him either - sounds like you’ve been holding back (understandable), how can you know he hasn’t picked up on this and is matching you for the emotional pace?

It sounds like you are so convinced you can never be loved you’ve brought that to this relationship and made sure he can’t get too close.

Talk to him. Stop mind reading and magical thinking. You do NOT know what he truly feels in terms of love and settling because you cannot read his mind.

And also - well, to be frank, you’ve done therapy, you know yourself (you say) yet you won’t take positive action. So you’re still clinging to these old beliefs even though this man is showing you something different in his actions. At some point you have to make a choice. All the therapy and understanding of yourself in the world will not change your beliefs or your life if you don’t change the way you behave. So you need to choose at some point to shit or get off the pot basically. Put the stuff you learned into practice and risk real positive change or keep swimming in the same old waters, searching for more situations that will prove you right about never being loved.

I think he'd ideally like to be with someone younger, slimmer and prettier. He lacked confidence in his youth and didn't date as much as he might. I think he feels he missed out.

He knows that he isn't going to ever attract a slim, beautiful 25 year old but I think admitting it and accepting it, well he's in the same boat as me really. He has to accept that as much as I have to accept I won't be loved and I suppose its an acceptance that comes hard.

He's not my 'partner'.

We enjoy each other's company but this is all it is I think.

It's not because I'm keeping him away. It's because he doesn't want any more with me and I don't know if I'm capable of having more anyway.

I'm just trying to work out if this can be enough for me.

You should stay with someone for as long as they make you happy. A component of happiness is having someone to do things with ie companionship. You'd go to the cinema, theatre, or out on a day trip, with a companion, but probably not on your own. So your life is made broader and pleasanter. It would be a shame to lose it. The same goes for him. If someone turns up who offers you more, maybe go for it.

I can't work out if I'm happy. I think that's the problem. It's not as simple as yes I am or no I'm not.

Hi OP,

You are scared of putting yourself out there so you settle for second best, or for relationships that don’t fulfil you.

That is really sad and the only way to break the cycle is by going for what you really want, taking a risk that your heart will be broken and that it might not work out. Rather than go into things knowing they won’t work out.

Sorry if this seems insensitive and please don’t feel you have to answer if you don’t want to - but did you have a difficult childhood?

If you were happy you would know it. You wouldn’t have to unpick things or be unsure.

Don’t get me wrong, even when you are happy in a relationship there are generally always some issues and periods where you are unhappy. But you generally know if you are happy overall and it doesn’t sound like you are.

@QueenHofScotland

Hi OP,

You are scared of putting yourself out there so you settle for second best, or for relationships that don’t fulfil you.

That is really sad and the only way to break the cycle is by going for what you really want, taking a risk that your heart will be broken and that it might not work out. Rather than go into things knowing they won’t work out.

Sorry if this seems insensitive and please don’t feel you have to answer if you don’t want to - but did you have a difficult childhood?

It was very difficult. But that's all been addressed in therapy. That's partly the problem. I've done all the work but it isn't making any difference to my life. The interactions I have and and feedback I get is still the same.

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to take a risk. The men I've dated haven't wanted anything more from me and I've never met one who has. It's not that I reject men who want more amd seek these relationships out necessarily. Its just what they are. And, when I have wanted more, it's not been available to me.

Even this man, when we met, had told me he had previously had no luck online dating, that he wasn't fussed about looks etc particularly and that he was essentially looking for a life partner (we met in real life). Yet, I'm here, we've been seeing each other for 18 months and none of those things apply to me.

@RagRugs

I think he'd ideally like to be with someone younger, slimmer and prettier. He lacked confidence in his youth and didn't date as much as he might. I think he feels he missed out.

He knows that he isn't going to ever attract a slim, beautiful 25 year old but I think admitting it and accepting it, well he's in the same boat as me really. He has to accept that as much as I have to accept I won't be loved and I suppose its an acceptance that comes hard.

He's not my 'partner'.

We enjoy each other's company but this is all it is I think.

It's not because I'm keeping him away. It's because he doesn't want any more with me and I don't know if I'm capable of having more anyway.

I'm just trying to work out if this can be enough for me.

Every man would find an attractive slim 25 year old attractive. That doesn't mean that a 40-50 year old male can't be head over heels in love with their 40-50 year old, not super skinny wife (and still recognise that a skinny 25 year old is aesthetically pleasing)

You're thinking suggests that only 25 year old slim girls can be loved

Even this man, when we met, had told me he had previously had no luck online dating, that he wasn't fussed about looks etc particularly and that he was essentially looking for a life partner (we met in real life). Yet, I'm here, we've been seeing each other for 18 months and none of those things apply to me.

this contradicts your other post as he's saying that looks aren't everything as far as he's concerned and personality is important. That's not a bad thing. Looks don't last forever and a LTR can't survive on physical attraction alone

He wasn't a life partner and it sounds like that's the kind of relationship you have.

Can you give examples of what he's said or done that makes you think he doesn't want anymore than friendship?

Sorry if this is off the mark, are you the poster who is dating a nice man who comes over and does lovely things for your teen daughter? The one who broke up with him because you were confused and are now back together kind of not really umm maybe?

The one whose mother told you that you are unlovable and you internalized it?

Whether you are or not - do you spend your time with him agonizing over things like this? Or do you just enjoy the time together?

Has he actually told you that he doesn't love you? Have you told him?

I think he'd ideally like to be with someone younger, slimmer and prettier. He lacked confidence in his youth and didn't date as much as he might. I think he feels he missed out.

He knows that he isn't going to ever attract a slim, beautiful 25 year old but I think admitting it and accepting it, well he's in the same boat as me really. He has to accept that as much as I have to accept I won't be loved and I suppose its an acceptance that comes hard.

You're reading his mind. You don't know that he thinks or feels any of these things.

You sound very negative about him and about yourself. Just based on your posts it sounds like you reject love, and you reject the possibility of love. I'd guess you're very afraid of getting hurt and so you put up these defences. Instead of risking vulnerability, you tell yourself you know what others are thinking and assume the worst of yourself and everyone else.

Sorry OP but I would say therapy is probably what you need as you work out how to drop your defences. I hope you get some useful advice here.

You say you don’t love him and he doesn’t love you. Why are you with him then (sorry if this sounds blunt and harsh but it’s just question?)

You've said a lot of "I think he thinks" but has he actually said any of this, or things that strongly indicate he does?

Have you ever felt you were in love? You do sound very avoidant and I'm sure that is a defense mechanism given your difficult childhood. It's entirely possible that he's holding back because he can see you're not that into him.

If he was to say "I love you and I want a proper committed relationship with you" would you respond positively, or would you run away?

Do you actually want a committed relationship with someone? It's okay to be single, you know. Don't chase this ideal of a relationship just because you think you "should", because that's what "normal" people do.

I actually think having good therapy can actually make some people more prone to want to be alone, as they see that other people cannot be the sole source of happiness in their life. That's certainly been the case for me!

You're thinking suggests that only 25 year old slim girls can be loved

I know and, whilst I obviously know that's nonsense, it's increasingly feeling like I'm 'competing' with women I have no interest in, or desire to, compete with.

this contradicts your other post as he's saying that looks aren't everything as far as he's concerned and personality is important

I know. That's because, initially, that is what he said. But now I feel like it's changed. I think the whole thing is just messing with my head which is precisely why I stay away from relationships.

Can you give examples of what he's said or done that makes you think he doesn't want anymore than friendship?

Not really. It's more what he doesn't say.

Has he actually told you that he doesn't love you? Have you told him?

No. He told me that he cares about me a lot.

Sorry OP but I would say therapy is probably what you need as you work out how to drop your defences. I hope you get some useful advice here.

There is a lot of truth in what you say. Although, I don't know if I reject love. I've never had it to reject it. But I can't even imagine it as a possibility. It's just so alien to me. I want it but I don't know how to do it or find it. I don't know how people do it. Just that I've never been able to.

I feel that I've exhausted therapy now. I've had so much of it over the past 28 years. Some has worked to a small degree. On an intrapersonal level, I'm very different and much improved but on an interpersonal level I've not been able to make any significant change because it necessarily involves other people. And that's where I struggle. I don't have the time, the money or the strength for any more at the moment. Its too exhausting.

You say you don’t love him and he doesn’t love you. Why are you with him then (sorry if this sounds blunt and harsh but it’s just question?)

We enjoy each other's company; we support each other; we have fun together. But I'm not really 'with' him. We just spend time together.

If he was to say "I love you and I want a proper committed relationship with you" would you respond positively, or would you run away?

That's a good question. I think it would be exactly what I've always wanted to hear. But I also think I'd panic and withdraw a bit. I wouldn't know how to 'be' around him - I find that sometimes now.

I don't know if I want a relationship. I don't want to live with anyone or get married. I have children and I'm far too old to consider having more! I don't feel I need to be in a relationship to he 'validated' - I've been single for most of my adult life. But it breaks heart to think that I might get to the end of it never having been loved.

It sounds sad and I don't think I come across as 'needy' because of how I am but being loved is all I've ever wanted. I've never been interested in marriage or wealth, I'm not hugely ambitious professionally, although I have a career. I've never felt broody. I have hobbies and have developed skills etc but all I've ever wanted was to be loved.

I can remember being about 10 (I was watching Blue Peter) and thinking that it was all I needed. I am completely self sufficient. I don't need anything from anyone. I just want to be loved

@CraftyYankee

Sorry if this is off the mark, are you the poster who is dating a nice man who comes over and does lovely things for your teen daughter? The one who broke up with him because you were confused and are now back together kind of not really umm maybe?

The one whose mother told you that you are unlovable and you internalized it?

Whether you are or not - do you spend your time with him agonizing over things like this? Or do you just enjoy the time together?

Yes.

I don't agonise over it when we are together. I don't really think about it at all - only if we're having a conversation about other people.

I just enjoy the time together.

We finally had a conversation a few weeks ago about what I ended it. I said that I often felt like i didn't matter to him.

He said that every time he cooked for me or took me somewhere or or spent time with me etc was because I 'matter' to him.

But I have a bit of difficulty with 'object constancy' and I can't be sure that that is still the case.

I have read a number of your threads under different usernames. Your style of writing is fairly distinctive, very deep and thoughtful.

It is impossible to know from here but fwiw I think this man sounds deeply committed to you. I don't know what relationship issues he brings to the table, but from what you have posted he wants to be with you but is treading very carefully because you are like a rabbit who might startle and flee at the slightest hint of danger.

But he keeps returning and showing his commitment through his actions.

Have you read the love languages book yet? It is a quick fairly fluffy read but it might make you feel better about his attachment to you. Words are not the be all and end all.

I have read the love languages book. I do understand that it looks like incompatible love languages but how do I know? I brought up the idea of love languages with him once and he just thought the whole idea was nonsense, which I know a lot of people.do.

I can just really feel.myself spiralling at the moment and I'm getting really close to walking away. I know that if I do that again, that will be the last time - he wouldn't bother with me again and I wouldn't put myself through it again.

But I've woken up from another disturbed night's sleep with a number of distressing dreams - some of them just nonsense but some of them reliving past 'trauma', which is all indicative of things getting out of control in my head.

It isn't helped by the fact that I've not spoken to him this week and no texts have been exchanged.