Can this ever be enough?

[RagRugs]

I've been struggling a lot recently. I've posted on here and had some great advice but much of it seems to be centred around seeking counselling or therapy. I've had both on and off for nearly 30 years and, whilst I've seen minor shifts, it's not really working for me any more. My insight is great. I know exactly why I think and feel the way I do but I don't seem to be able to change it. I can fake it for a while, I have the confidence to ignore some of core beliefs etc but they are still there and, as soon as I'm put under any pressure or challenged, they come back. This is partly because, in some cases and sense, they are true. In others, it's because they have been reinforced so many times and by so many people over the years that I'm almost a lone voice in saying that they're not. Which makes it difficult.

I'm going to try and keep it brief...

I have competing narratives in my head.

On one hand, I have never been loved, I want it and don't see the point in wasting time with men who aren't going to love me and who I'm never going to love. I date men for a short time and then walk when they demonstrate that they don't respect me or will never love me.

But, equally, I should have known these relationships would never result in love or longevity. Every 'relationship' I have ever had has been incompatible with love in some way. There is always a distance - eg emotional; geographical; chronological; intellectual...

But I feel intimidated by, and unworthy of, men who are more my 'equal' or who live closer or are just a more viable option. I feel embarrassed that they might think I'm interested.

I feel more comfortable around married men. I don't flirt with them! I've never been an affair partner and wouldn't. I have too much self respect and too much respect for their wives. But the 'non threatening' aspect of them being unavailable means I find them more comfortable company.

I have been involved with a man for 18 months which is the longest positive experience of a 'relationship' I've ever had. I don't (think I) love him and I know he doesn't love me although there is clearly am attachment there. In many ways, it looks like a relationship. We behave quite 'coupley' when we are out with other couples; we spend every weekend together; we are supportive of each other; he's done many things to show me he cares but, over the last few weeks, it has started to feel a bit empty.

In many ways, this man meets my needs for companionship and I'm sure I do for him too. But it's starting to feel a bit 'hollow' without the emotion and commitment to back it up. I don't really want to just to be with someone to fill a mutual void in our lives. I want to be loved.

I know many will say, 'End it and find someone who loves you," But, to me, that's like telling someone to leave their job and win the lottery instead! I've never had what I've got with him before. Nor been loved. It would be unfathomable to me now. Inconceivable that it could happen. I'm not even sure I'd be receptive to it or recognise it.

I feel a bit like those women who post on here who have 2 children but really want a 3rd when their partner says no. The advice is often to leave and find someone who wants that 3rd child with them. When it isn't that simple! Other women tell them to be satisfied with the 2 children they have. What would a 3rd bring that they don't already have with 2? What if they never meet anyone and end up bring up those 2 children alone?

That's how it feels.

It feels like I'd be leaving something that works quite well but is lacking in something I'm yearning for. Something that has ticked along quite nicely for 18 months so far. And for what? The hope that, in my 40s I'll find something I never managed in my 20s and 30s?

The frustrating thing is that he is the person I wanted to discuss this with and process thoughts about it with but because of the situation, I feel like i can't be candid about it.

It's completely consuming me at the moment.

I don't want to lose what I have with this man because it suits us both well for as long as it lasts. I just don't know if it can be enough.

I don't have anyone I can talk about this with in real life.

It's not even him.

I could remove him from my life tomorrow and it would all still be there.

I sometimes feel that if I could just find a way of accepting it then I could grieve. Maybe the older I get, I just won't care anymore.

I haven't read any of your other threads, but it sounds like your man is committed to you and shows his commitment to you by 'doing' things for you. Being there, supporting and spending time together are all excellent foundations for a good relationship. It sounds perhaps like you would like him to declare he loves you? I wonder if he perhaps he would like you to do the same? Do you feel happy when you are together? Do you feel a priority? Love isn't always about feeling all consumed and passionate about each other. Love can be calm and quiet too.

I've not spoken to him this week and no texts have been exchanged

Why is this - what has happened?

Is he taking a step back because he is getting frustrated with your generally lukewarm attitude and lack of commitment?

What do you think would happen if you were to make a concerted effort to try to mentally commit to him? Maybe your emotions might follow? How do you think he would react if you showed more concern for him and his feelings, and greater commitment?

It sounds perhaps like you would like him to declare he loves you?

I don't think for a second that he does though. I feel quite confident that he doesn't. And that feels sad and inevitable.

But that still leaves me with the sadness and grief around the situation.

I'm just trying to work out whether I can accept the situation and accept what I have with him without love for the companionship (which has been nice) or whether I should walk away and be completely on my own because I'm just constantly reminded of it.

Stupid thing is that I nearly turned him down when he asked me out because I knew how it would go. I sometimes wish I had.

Why is this - what has happened?

He's incredibly busy with work this week so no time in the day; I've been equally busy with unavoidable/uninterruptable commitments every evening and by the time I've finished, I'm shattered and he would most likely be in bed.

I imagine he's probably seen a couple of friends who live within walking distance to wind down in the evenings.

I suppose one of us could have been in touch when we were free but he doesn't text for chats anyway.

I do show concern for him and his feelings. I don't think he wants me to 'commit'.

Your assessment of the situation might be right, OP. But it might not. I don't see how you can have such certainty. It's like you're having the whole relationship with yourself inside your own head, more than actually with the other person in reality.

You assume you know what your bf is thinking and feeling because you assume they see you the way you see yourself (unlikely) and tbh you have a very negative view of yourself and him. Why don't you ask him: "Do you love me?" "Do you think that our relationship could ever become deeper or more loving?" "What would you think about putting a label on our relationship?" etc. Ask him. It's unfair not to.

You say you are desperate to be loved, but I see you rejecting the possibility of love - discounting the very idea that this man might have loving feelings for you, and clinging on to your belief that it's not possible for anyone to love you. That's not a fact. It's just a belief. You can change it. Start by allowing other people their own feelings instead of making them up in your head. You might be surprised. Even if your bf doesn't feel love for you, he might have a very different view of you than you imagine.

Have you ever felt loved? Have you felt loved by your children? Because I can guarantee you that your children do love you. Your problem is not that you are unlovable, but that you believe that you are, and you are too frightened to challenge this belief because the hope that it might not actually be true would be devastating to raise and then have dashed. That's how I read what you're saying, anyway.

Just am certain of it. I just need to work out if I can cope with it (I can't).

He's not my bf. I wouldn't ask him if he loves me because it would be pointless and is likely to ruin everything. I don't need to hear him say what I already know.

I know my children love me. I don't know if I feel loved by them. We very rarely have conflict but, when we do, I do feel that I've lost them. Obviously I haven't but we don't have any coneact with my mum at all and so they know it can happen.

you are too frightened to challenge this belief because the hope that it might not actually be true would be devastating to raise and then have dashed.

This is true.

But, to answer your question, no, I've never felt loved. But, aside from my children, there's a very good reason for that!

I wouldn't ask him if he loves me because it would be pointless and is likely to ruin everything. I don't need to hear him say what I already know.

Well, why don't you just ask him how he feels about you or how he sees the friendship developing? You say you can't stay in the relationship as it is, so it's not going to ruin everything if he says 'nothing' because that's what you already think. What if he says, "I really like you and care for you and want to keep seeing you." How would that feel?

It seems to me that this is the block you keep coming up against. I am experiencing it as being very frustrating because you are not open to working on it. I imagine it feels very frustrating to you as you keep asking people to accept your belief about yourself as if it is true and a fact, and people generally won't because they don't see it that way.

You have a belief about yourself that you are unlovable. You are not prepared to have this belief challenged. You defend this belief even though it is the source of deep pain and unhappiness for you. You believe it because "it's true" and any evidence to the contrary will be discounted in some way. In fact, you make sure that you only accept evidence that supports your belief, and don't even see counter-evidence as being relevant.

Two things you could work on:

1. realise that it is a belief not a fact
2. work out what it is you are protecting with this belief. Why are you defending it so powerfully? There must be something vitally important to you that you feel must be defended by blocking off any possibility of being loved. What is it that you feel so vulnerable about?

Once you start to work this out, you might find that there are ways to protect and defend this vulnerable part of you without clinging on to this destructive belief you have about yourself.

I know you feel you've come to the end of the line with therapy, but actually I think you've come to a wall, a mental and emotional block, and there is a lot, lot, lot more on the other side.

CBT is a very good, accessible form of therapy for challenging destructive beliefs.

@beastlyslumber
"CBT is a very good, accessible form of therapy for challenging destructive beliefs"

Completely disagree with this.
OP has core beliefs from infancy probably that are very difficult to change.
CBT, in my opinion, would be totally unsuitable for this, psychotherapy can help but I suspect the OP has tried this already.

"Why are you defending so powerfully the belief that you are unlovable?"
Probably because it was created in infancy when the OPs basic need to be loved wasn't met by her mother. Instead of raging against her inadequate mother, who she was totally dependent on, she blamed herself and created the belief that she was bad and unlovable.
To change that belief is extraordinarily difficult, I know as I've also spent almost 30 years trying to do it.

Clearly it wouldn't be a good idea to declare love for this man or seek reassurance on where the relationship is going, but can you open up to him more, even make yourself slightly emotionally vulnerable? A shift of emphasis, being more proactive, trying to get to a point where you are beginning to understand him at a deeper level, investing in the relationship more?

Actually i think CBT is a great way to challenge these core beliefs because you have to train your mind out of that reaction that you constantly reinforce. Just talking it through and understanding it’s there is not enough. You have to consistently challenge the thoughts rather than strengthening them by repeating them and choosing the same situations that reinforce them.

And i say that as someone who did change core beliefs. Took several years of therapy and lots of the above actions but it worked.

I agree with the poster who says a wall has been hit.

For me OP, the other side of that wall and what i was defending was the pain of not being cared for properly by my parents. And the knowledge i couldn’t change it and had to accept it. To accept it is devastating really for the inner child who holds onto that magical thinking that it’s all their fault (and therefore someday they can find a way to put it right). But actually, that grief passes and by doing it you get to give the younger you a real gift by allowing them to grieve and not hold all that guilt and blame anymore.

I also changed the core belief I had that I was unlovable. It took many years, and CBT helped, as well as psychotherapy, although I haven't had loads of either.

Probably because it was created in infancy when the OPs basic need to be loved wasn't met by her mother. Instead of raging against her inadequate mother, who she was totally dependent on, she blamed herself and created the belief that she was bad and unlovable.

This was exactly - exactly - my situation. I was not loved by my mum, and I developed the belief that I was unlovable. I did not see it as a belief; I saw it as a fact. That's why I say the number 1 thing to try is to start to recognise it as a belief. Facts don't change, but beliefs can and do. How you then go about changing that belief - CBT is just one option. There are many others. OP may have tried CBT before but it won't help her to change a belief if she doesn't recognise it as a belief.

This isn't a belief I developed as a result of mother's rejection. She spent my whole childhood telling me no one would love me or want me because [insert some character/personality/physical trait or behaviour] - there was nothing about me that was acceptable to her. I couldn't tell you a single thing about me that she liked, admired or valued.

It was because of this that I had the whole realisation while I was watching Blue Peter that all I wanted was to be loved and accepted.

When I was a teenager, I just thought she was unbelievably cruel but on some level the damage was already done. I didn't have boyfriends but tried to attract boys and them treated them quite because I knew there was no point trying for anything more.

Then, in my 20s, I thought I'd met someone who did love me. We were engaged and I became pregnant. When I was pregnant, he told he didn't love me and tried pushing me down the stairs and cheated one amongst other things. I left him. After a couple of years on my own, I started dating my best friend from school. I thought he loved me but he was embarrassed to be seen with me because he thought I wasn't attractive enough. He wouldn't introduce me to any of his other friends for 2 years and always walked ahead of me out in public so people wouldn't realise we were together. Behind closed doors, we got on OK, and I had no other support, so I stayed with him for 12 years. 12 long loveless, sexless years. Although we did eventually decide to conceive a child. Terrible decision but my daughter is great. We split up nearly 10 years ago. But he was also kind and supportive at times and, when we split up, he continued to he so so that I never felt I had no choice but to contact my mother again. He liked me but he didn't love me.

Since then, I've had dated a few men amd started a few relationships but each one has reinforced the idea that I'm not attractive enough and not loveable. Either because they've echoed things my mother said to me or added other criticisms into the mix. None of them has loved me.

This man I'm currently involved with, I asked him if he is embarrassed to he seen with me. He said no but I often feel that he is. He also doesn't love me.

So if this is a 'belief' then it's one that everyone i have dated has shared.

Now that I am older, and understand better, I can see that neither of my children's fathers had ever loved me. I just saw what I wanted to believe was true at the time. My eldest father had been abusive from the start but his mum had told me he only hit/shouted at/punished me because he loved me - if he hadn't loved me, he wouldn't have become so angry with me. Obviously, I know now that that is bollocks but I didn't have anything to compare it to.

My youngest's father felt huge compassion for me and mistook that for more. Once we were together, he realised but didnt want to be the second bastard who'd treated me like shit. So he made a commitment to my son and me and we just stuck with it.

"So if this is a 'belief' then it's one that everyone i have dated has shared."

I can only suggest that believing ("knowing" as you seem to see it) that you are unlovable is what others pick up on. So it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You may well give out the wrong vibes, be distant or defensive etc even if you think you're not doing so?

Also what do you think 'love' looks like? Is it passionate declarations of love? Not everyone is that. I'm not, my DH is not. My children like me to say 'I Iove you' to them and I do, but I didn't grow up in a family that said things like that- I knew they loved me though.

But I didn't always believe it. I just assumed that, at some point, it would happen. But over the years it's just been reinforced and repeated and I probably really start to realise it wasn't going to change about 4 or 5 years ago.

I understand that that hasn't been other people's experience but it is mine.

I don't know what love looks like. But I know what it doesn't look like. And it doesn't look like shame, humiliation, criticism, disgust, apathy, indifference, embarrassment or violence.

I didn't grow up in a family that said things like that- I knew they loved me though.

Well its normal for families to love each other. I'd probably have assumed my mum loved me, despite everything, if she hadn't told me so candidly that she didn't.

But other people have a choice.

@RagRugs

But I didn't always believe it. I just assumed that, at some point, it would happen. But over the years it's just been reinforced and repeated and I probably really start to realise it wasn't going to change about 4 or 5 years ago.

I understand that that hasn't been other people's experience but it is mine.

I don't know what love looks like. But I know what it doesn't look like. And it doesn't look like shame, humiliation, criticism, disgust, apathy, indifference, embarrassment or violence.

It also looks like kindness, support, physical intimacy... lots of things it sounds like you do have with this man. I wouldn't write him off because he isn't being / doing something that you yourself say you can't describe (ie what love looks like).

OP, my story is very, very similar to yours. I was so desperate to be loved that it made me a target for men who saw in me a vulnerability they could abuse or take advantage of. This confirmed my belief that I was worthless and unlovable, because that's how those people treated me. You might not believe it if you met me today, but I was just as convinced that no one could love me as you are. I was wrong - I'm not unlovable at all. And what's more, many people loved me and I hurt them badly because I couldn't accept it and I pushed them away and acted like a dick in order to preserve my belief that I was unlovable and not have to risk any vulnerability.

If you want to change your situation and feelings, you definitely can. But it means changing your belief. I can see how fiercely you are defending your belief and how much evidence you can marshal to support it. But you can start by simply asking yourself, what if it's true that this is only a belief? What if my experiences are influenced by this belief rather than the other way round? What if I reduced this belief from 100% to 95%? Allow myself a 5% possibility that it's not true?

Maybe another way of approaching it is to ask yourself what it would look like if someone showed love to you? What kinds of things would they do and say to demonstrate that they loved you? Could you identify those things and then look out for them in the people around you? So, for me, an expression of love might be for someone to notice when I'm tired and offer to do something for me, or to make me a cup of tea, or remember a special occasion. I used to take those sorts of things for granted, not realising that they were loving things to do, and I discounted them as though they didn't matter and didn't mean anything, because they didn't fit with my belief that I was worthless and unlovable. Are you discounting it when friends or family show love to you?

My second child's father saw a vulnerability in me because i was very vulnerable when we started dating and, as we'd known each other at school, he saw and heard a lot of it but I can't see how that applies to any of the others.

I've met men through online dating (but not done that for many years). Mostly men I've met in real life. And i feel very confident and self assured in the early stages of dating. There is no way that any of them would have me down as vulnerable and I always end things as soon as they comment or I see red flags. Sometimes that takes a matter of days sometimes it's months.

And what's more, many people loved me and I hurt them badly because I couldn't accept it

That's the thing, this isn't the case for me. I've not been in the position of not accepting of love except for maybe when I was a teenager but then is that really love anyway? It's hard to explain to people who haven't been there to see it. There has just been a complete absence of love or people who could have loved me.

What if I reduced this belief from 100% to 95%? Allow myself a 5% possibility that it's not true?

What would that look like though? How would that change or impact on how someone sees or feels about me? What would be different in the way I was? I don't know what that would look like.

As for your descriptions of expressions of love. Yes, I see those things occasionally. But those are the sorts of things I do for people because of who I am and not because of how I feel about them. They are kindnesses from kind people whonwouldndonthebsame for anyone, which is nice, but not love.

I don't have family outside of my children and sibling, who is equally, but differently, damaged by our upbringing. Both my parents were only children so no aunts, uncles or cousins and we only had one grandparent growing up. Which is difficult because there were no alternative voices and no love from anywhere else. My sibling and I weren't allies as children and so I grew up completely without any love from anyone. My relationship with my sibling now is OK but we are not close. It's almost a therapeutic relationship whereby he talks through and processes aspects of our childhood and how he feels about our mother and I listen and sometimes contribute from my experience. It's cathartic but not 'loving'.

I'm sorry if I sound confrontational. I don't mean to.

I just feel utterly tormented by it. And very sad. I'm 46. The thought that I could have another 30 or 40 years of feeling like this is too much to bear really.

I think we have had equally dysfunctional childhoods (although not in the same way.)

If you are currently in therapy I would take a break, as it doesn't seem to be helping.

I'd suggest looking for a different style of therapy. Transactional analysis? Psychodynamic?

You have two children which is a gift many don't get.

I'd personally concentrate on my career and my kids because fuck men, there are sooooooo many wankers.

No, I'm not currently in therapy. I recently finished some which helped. I found the exercises helpful but within weeks of it finishing, they stopped helping and I've just gone back.

I'd personally concentrate on my career and my kids because fuck men, there are sooooooo many wankers.

Believee, I know that and it's not even about a man especially. It's about how i feel about myself. And I can't escape from myself and my head

And yes, I know, my children are amazing. They're the only thing that keeps me going.