Can this ever be enough?

[RagRugs]

I've been struggling a lot recently. I've posted on here and had some great advice but much of it seems to be centred around seeking counselling or therapy. I've had both on and off for nearly 30 years and, whilst I've seen minor shifts, it's not really working for me any more. My insight is great. I know exactly why I think and feel the way I do but I don't seem to be able to change it. I can fake it for a while, I have the confidence to ignore some of core beliefs etc but they are still there and, as soon as I'm put under any pressure or challenged, they come back. This is partly because, in some cases and sense, they are true. In others, it's because they have been reinforced so many times and by so many people over the years that I'm almost a lone voice in saying that they're not. Which makes it difficult.

I'm going to try and keep it brief...

I have competing narratives in my head.

On one hand, I have never been loved, I want it and don't see the point in wasting time with men who aren't going to love me and who I'm never going to love. I date men for a short time and then walk when they demonstrate that they don't respect me or will never love me.

But, equally, I should have known these relationships would never result in love or longevity. Every 'relationship' I have ever had has been incompatible with love in some way. There is always a distance - eg emotional; geographical; chronological; intellectual...

But I feel intimidated by, and unworthy of, men who are more my 'equal' or who live closer or are just a more viable option. I feel embarrassed that they might think I'm interested.

I feel more comfortable around married men. I don't flirt with them! I've never been an affair partner and wouldn't. I have too much self respect and too much respect for their wives. But the 'non threatening' aspect of them being unavailable means I find them more comfortable company.

I have been involved with a man for 18 months which is the longest positive experience of a 'relationship' I've ever had. I don't (think I) love him and I know he doesn't love me although there is clearly am attachment there. In many ways, it looks like a relationship. We behave quite 'coupley' when we are out with other couples; we spend every weekend together; we are supportive of each other; he's done many things to show me he cares but, over the last few weeks, it has started to feel a bit empty.

In many ways, this man meets my needs for companionship and I'm sure I do for him too. But it's starting to feel a bit 'hollow' without the emotion and commitment to back it up. I don't really want to just to be with someone to fill a mutual void in our lives. I want to be loved.

I know many will say, 'End it and find someone who loves you," But, to me, that's like telling someone to leave their job and win the lottery instead! I've never had what I've got with him before. Nor been loved. It would be unfathomable to me now. Inconceivable that it could happen. I'm not even sure I'd be receptive to it or recognise it.

I feel a bit like those women who post on here who have 2 children but really want a 3rd when their partner says no. The advice is often to leave and find someone who wants that 3rd child with them. When it isn't that simple! Other women tell them to be satisfied with the 2 children they have. What would a 3rd bring that they don't already have with 2? What if they never meet anyone and end up bring up those 2 children alone?

That's how it feels.

It feels like I'd be leaving something that works quite well but is lacking in something I'm yearning for. Something that has ticked along quite nicely for 18 months so far. And for what? The hope that, in my 40s I'll find something I never managed in my 20s and 30s?

The frustrating thing is that he is the person I wanted to discuss this with and process thoughts about it with but because of the situation, I feel like i can't be candid about it.

It's completely consuming me at the moment.

I don't want to lose what I have with this man because it suits us both well for as long as it lasts. I just don't know if it can be enough.

Hi OP I am so glad to hear that you do look after yourself and follow your interests, but still the phrase 'supposed to' crept into your post. What about doing these things because you love doing them and they bring you joy?

I also wanted to say you sound like a lovely person, intelligent, thoughtful and reliable, what would you say your good points are?

Oh I meant 'supposed to' because those are all the things people tell you to do but I do dk them because I love them.

My good points?

I'm kind, compassionate, loyal, faithful. I'm resilient and, despite how I might come across here, I don't take myself too seriously - more than happy to laugh at myself. I've got a good work ethic, I'm self sufficient and reliable. I'm trustworthy. I think I've got a good sense of humour and others tend to laugh... 🤷🏻‍♀️ I don't gossip and I don't stand in judgement of others. I have integrity. I'm a great bass player... I get a lot of positive feedback at work where it counts (eg feedback from people I work with). Management think I could be more organised. I think that's probably my worst trait. I have a tendency to he a bit chaotic if I don't keep it under check. And a bit untidy.

So you have loads of good points :-) And you are lovable.

Would you say you are a holistic thinker / you sometimes have difficulty seeing the trees for the wood? I ask because you do sound a bit like me and something I struggle with is breaking down big issues into smaller chunks that I can then tackle. And I wonder if the idea you have about what it is to be loved is a destination that is too far away for you to imagine, and you can't see the path that leads to it?

I wonder if the idea you have about what it is to be loved is a destination that is too far away for you to imagine, and you can't see the path that leads to it?

That's quite a good way of explaining it!

It's an unfathomable destination i.suppose.

But it is a destination worth aiming for :-) and at the risk of sounding clichéd, the journey is just a question of putting one foot in front of the other. Just take it one step at a time starting with some of the things people have mentioned on here like learning to love yourself and opening up to the possibility of being loved

I get all of that. I really do.

But if you're just not someone people (men) develop that depth/strength of feeling for then there's nothing you can do.

I totally disagree with that statement. You are lovable and a man could easily develop that intensity of feeling for you IF you work on your ability to be vulnerable. No one is going to develop those kinds of intense loving feelings for someone who has walled off her own feelings. It's not Disney - a prince isn't going to come and thaw your frozen heart. You have to work on opening up yourself. When you are ready for a committed and intimate relationship, you have a very good chance of finding a person who is likewise ready. As long as you hide your true needs and feelings behind this (clearly very attractive) wall, the chances of you finding love are slim to none!

You are definitely someone that a man could absolutely adore, but beastlyslumber has it right.

As a child your emotional needs weren't met. The role of a parent is to anticipate and fill their infants various needs, including physical, emotional and cognitive, but as the child progresses through childhood (ideally) the parent guides them to be able to meet those needs themselves. I am not saying that we should all grow up to be completely self-sufficient but as adults we take over that responsibility for our various needs. I completely understand that desire to be loved and how therapeutic that could seem, to fill the hole left by your treatment by your mother, but ultimately you need to heal from the inside out.

Your partner sounds like he cares for you. Can you accept that shelter for what it is for now, remain open to future possibilities and in the meantime work on building your own resource of love and care for yourself. You are you, you are unique and you are so worth it

You have completely misunderstood what I meant about loving yourself. Loving yourself and being a nice person/flawless/whatever is irrelevant, as evidenced by all the horrible narcissistic twats in the world who love themselves.

Here is a definition
Self-love is a state of appreciation for oneself that grows from actions that support our physical, psychological and spiritual growth. Self-love means having a high regard for your own well-being and happiness. Self-love means taking care of your own needs and not sacrificing your well-being to please others.

Even people that can be negative or hard work on a fundamental point have self live to some extend. In fact, some people that put themselves down in front of others, actually hold themselves at quite high self esteem and simply seek validation/reassurance/praise from others.

However, your issue is very deeply rooted due to your mother and a bad history of relationships. By consistently saying you are unlovable you display a lack of self love. Everyone in this post has tried to help you and reassured you that you are not unlovable, but no matter what we say you can't see any other perspective. You have convinced yourself you are unlovable, you act as if you are unlovable you tell everyone that they don't live you, which in turn pushes people away, thus proving yourself right than in fact they never did love you. This is called self fulfilling prophecy.
Nobody will be able to pass through your defences and love you, when you don't give them a chance.

As a previous poster said you can't tell the man you know he doesn't love you. That a way to push people away, most people would walk away if u said that to them, cause its pointless to try to convince someone that u do in fact live them.

This man may or may nit live u, but u can't make that decision for him. And u can't know the answer unless u ask him/he tells you.

I mean this nicely OP but what do you think other people have or are experiencing? Very very few people get someone who "adores" them. Most people, if they are lucky, get someone who they get on with well enough, have a laugh and a chat with and have a bit of sex with. That is human relationships, that's what "love" is, especially in our 30s and 40s+.

Just one example, you said you've "only" been asked out three times in the last few months, like that's such a low amount we'd be surprised to hear it, but actually that's heaps. I haven't been asked out three times in my whole life. Of course it's not a race to the bottom but I just wonder if you perceive everyone else to be getting more than you when that isn't the case.

I haven't been asked out three times in my whole life.

Me either!

I didn't say I'd 'only' been asked out 3 times in the last 3 months. Just that I had and in response to someone suggesting that I wasn't going to meet anyone decent whilst investing time in men who I clearly wasn't compatible with. I'm not sure why I thought it was relevant but at the time it made sense in my head to the point I was trying to make.

I think it's great that you get asked out often. It shows that men find you attractive and means there's a good chance you will find that loving relationship you're looking for, once you're in a place to be open to it. It means that the obstacle is definitely not "men can't love me" but "I need to find a way to drop my defences and allow men to love me". Much better position to be in, tbh.

How did it go with your friend yesterday? Did you chat with him?

Thanks. Yes, I probably.do need to reframe some of it.

We had a lovely evening but I didn't say anything - we went out for dinner and drinks and it didn't seem the right time. We're spending this evening together too so will find time to say something then.

Good luck I think you will find it a worthwhile conversation, however it goes.

OK. I've had a very interesting and enlightening weekend.

I tried to bring it up but didn't get very far. I asked him if he wants to be with me properly and he said he feels uncertain about me because I ended it, which is fair enough. But he wouldn't say yes or no. He likes the way things are. He likes me - he cares about me and he enjoys spending time with me. All fair enough. I didn't ask him if he loves me because there didn't seem to be any point. I just gave up in the end because I realised I wasn't going to get any further than I have done previously. We are 'exclusive' though.

Yesterday afternoon, I met up with one of my friends for a drink.

As we were leaving the pub at about 7pm, I bumped into a man I know. Now this man and I dated for about 6 months when we were at school (28 years ago!! 🙈) I hadn't seen him since leaving school until about 4 years ago and I've bumped into him 3 times since. Twice in the past fortnight. We added each other on fb 4 years ago but haven't interacted or spoken at all in that time.

Anyway, he messaged me yesterday evening when I'd got home and we chatted for a bit. We've agreed to meet up for a coffee and a proper catch up.

It got me thinking.

I can't help but wonder if it's appropriate to meet up with him because of this other guy. And then I thought, actually, I don't owe the other guy anything. He hasn't made any sort of commitment to me. He won't even have a frank and honest conversation with me - he didn't really give me clear answers to anything.

If he wanted/wants to be with me properly, then I'd commit fully but I'm not going to commit to someone myself if he isn't clearly interested in doing so 'just in case'.

I don't know if I should try one last time and just say, "I've tried talking to you about 'us' and I come away feeling none the wiser. I want to be in a committed relationship with someone who loves me. I might never find that but I'm definitely not going to while we are 'together' if I'm not going to have that with you. I've been asked out a few times and have turned them all down because of you. If we were actually together, I'd happily turn them down indefinitely but, as it stands, what am I turning them down for?"

I've read back through this thread and everyone really seems to be saying the same thing about me and the way I am. So I have to accept that even if I don't necessarily agree with it 100%! I tried addressing it and felt i was just hitting a brick wall. Now maybe he is interested but has his own emotional issues that prevent him from opening up and his reticence is more to do with that than his feelings or maybe he is genuinely content with the way things are and has no feelings for me. Either way, my experience of it is the same.

Okay. He likes you, cares about you, enjoys spending time with you and you've both agreed you're 'exclusive'.

But he won't make a commitment.

You want a commitment. You want to be in a loving relationship with someone who is willing to make a commitment to you.

It sounds like that's not this guy.

However. I don't think it's fair to give him an ultimatum - "commit to this relationship or I'm going to start dating other people". It's not really fair and also if he said okay you would never really be sure if that was because of his genuine feelings or just that he wanted to keep you hanging on in case he decided he does really want that. Or maybe he doesn't want you but doesn't want anyone else to have you either.

Do you love him? The impression I've got from your posts is that you want someone to love you, but it doesn't necessarily have to be him.

If you want to meet up with this other guy, do it. It sounds like you have men falling at your feet! Date a few of them and see if you find someone you have a real connection with. You will have to end it with the first bloke though.

I've read back through this thread and everyone really seems to be saying the same thing about me and the way I am.

What is it that you think people are saying about the way you are?

Do you love him? The impression I've got from your posts is that you want someone to love you, but it doesn't necessarily have to be him.

Love as a verb? Yes. Love as an abstract noun? Sometimes. A lot of the time. But sometimes I feel pushed away and at those times I feel it less. At those times I feel thenurge to run. I suppose I wouldn't still be in this situation if I didn't.

The other guy, it would only be a friendly drink and a catch up but I wouldn't do it if I were in a relationship because we're not existing friends and it could be misconstrued. I'm not actually interested in anyone else. But, at the same time, I don't see the point in becoming more invested in someone who doesn't want me.

What is it that you think people are saying about the way you are?

Well, essentially that I'm probably quite emotionally closed off myself and I can't be loved if I don't let it happen or stay with men who don't love me.

I'm.watching something on TV and its just made me think.

I think i feel supported in what I do by him but not in who I am. He knows some of my background and he's been very kind but, it's true, I don't show any vulnerability or 'weakness'. That's largely because emotion and vulnerability were treated as weaknesses when I was a child and were exploited to mock, shame and humiliate us. So I keep everything to myself. I deal with problems, ill health, day to day worries by myself. I don't share them with or have support from anyone. I find it very difficult to lean on other people. Work have also commented that I should be more willing to speak up and ask for support from colleagues. Whereas, what I do is shut down and the more difficult the situation is, the sooner and more comprehensively I shut down. I feel very uncomfortable if someone wants to 'help' me.

As far as giving him an ultimatum goes, I don't want to do that but I don't want to spend the with someone who doesn't love me either.

"he said he feels uncertain about me because I ended it,"

i think u are not giving his statement enough thought and consideration.
he was open and honest with you.
he is into you, wants to be exclusive with you, but he is scared that if he gets more emotionally commited to you, you will just screw him over again. he needs reassurance and to trust you, and neither of these can be achieved by you "threatening" to start dating other people.

from his perspective, i assume,he sees no commitment from your part, and he sees a readiness to dump him/run away at any moment. you cannot form secure attachment, when u keep feeling like your partner has one foot in the door at any given moment.

even what you describe about meeting the ex, just shows how eaily and quickly u are aready to jump ship. , why would he commit and let himself love you? if he was the one posting here describing ur behavior within the "relationship" , everyone would just be saying she is not that into you.

you are demanding him to give you 100% , commitment and love, while offering 0% of yourself, thats a massive leap of faith to want, let alone to demand under the threat of an ultimatum.

yes of course, there is always the chance that he doesnt want more, and he is content with how things are. hoever, u cannot find out the true scope of his feelings while being emotionally closed off yourself.

you either have feelings for this guy and want more, in which case you put some time and effort to work on yourself and the "relationship" to see where it goes, but that would require to put yourself at risk of getting hurt.

or if your feelings arent that strong, you break it off and go back to dating. however, based on what u have said about ur exes, perhaps dating an ex might not be the best idea. and your problem will continue with anyone you date unless you work on breaking the walls you have built around you

Cloudfrost

I don't agree with everything you've said but I can see you've made some very good points I shall definitely consider.

As for the 'ex', he's literally someone I dated for a few months when I was 18. I'm not interested in rekindling anything there but we seem to get on and it would be nice to catch up.

What is it that you think people are saying about the way you are?

Well, essentially that I'm probably quite emotionally closed off myself and I can't be loved if I don't let it happen or stay with men who don't love me.

I think it's more this:

I don't show any vulnerability or 'weakness'. That's largely because emotion and vulnerability were treated as weaknesses when I was a child and were exploited to mock, shame and humiliate us. So I keep everything to myself.

I don't really know what you mean by 'love as a verb, not an abstract noun'. Love is a verb. Do you mean you act in loving ways but don't really feel love towards him? If so, I expect that's because feeling love would make you feel vulnerable.

And this guy sounds very similar. It sounds like he was hurt and is now frightened to be vulnerable with you. But still wants to see you and be exclusive with you. (I don't know though - another reason why someone might not make a commitment to you is because they just don't really want to, are just keeping you hanging on until they meet someone they like better. So be sure you know which it is.)

If you want to make it work with this man, I think you both need to be honest and open with each other. On the other hand, I'm not sure that two insecure and avoidant people are going to be able to make that happen.

I don't really know what you mean by 'love as a verb, not an abstract noun'. Loveisa verb. Do you mean you act in loving ways but don't really feel love towards him? If so, I expect that's because feeling love would make you feel vulnerable.

Yes. And you're right, it would make me feel too vulnerable 😕

And this guy sounds very similar. It sounds like he was hurt and is now frightened to be vulnerable with you. But still wants to see you and be exclusive with you. (I don't know though - another reason why someone might not make a commitment to you is because they just don't really want to, are just keeping you hanging on until they meet someone they like better. So be sure you know which it is.)

He has been hurt. Women have rejected him throughout his life for a physical characteristic he can do nothing about. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. But I know he has built up his own walls because of that.

But I do also think he is keeping me around until someone better comes along I wonder sometimes if the fact that I accept him makes me less attractive to him.

On one of the occasions when he talked about previous rejection, I said that I found this characteristic very attractive. his response was, "Its a pity more women don't feel like that." At the time, I thought, "Well just how many women do you want?" Surely the point is that you date hoping you meet someone who accepts you for who you are. Not feel bitter that they are the only one... and he has had previous relationships but with women who were younger, slimmer and prettier than me. I feel that accepting me would be like him admitting to himself that he was no longer attractive to those women and he isn't ready to do that yet.

I've tried to have an open and honest conversation but he talks round in circles and won't be direct.

I feel that accepting me would be like him admitting to himself that he was no longer attractive to those women and he isn't ready to do that yet.

This is really harsh and insulting to both you and him! If it's true, then you really ought to run a mile from this man. Why would you put up with being the booby prize? How awful for your confidence and self-esteem.

But it doesn't quite ring true to me. You are someone who is frequently asked out/chatted up by other men. You are clearly someone who men find attractive and desirable. This man says he cares for you and enjoys your company, and wants to be exclusive with you. There's no reason to think that you're not good enough in this man's eyes.

His comment about how it's a shame other women don't feel that way about his characteristic - I wouldn't necessarily read that as him expressing dissatisfaction with you and wishing for more/different than you. He may have just been reflecting on past situations where he had felt hurt and expressing his sense of sadness and injustice about those past instances. Wishing things had been different for him. You could have asked him there and then - what do you mean? Maybe he would have explained that it was just a reflective comment. Maybe he was trying to say that he wished more people were like you, i.e. he values you and how you see the world. There are different ways of interpreting that comment and you won't know unless you dig deeper.

Obviously your interpretation may be correct. But if it is, then you definitely can't stay with him.

But is it possible that you are twisting things to their worst/most negative interpretations in order to confirm your belief that you are not loved or lovable?

I think the only possible way forward is to be honest with this man about what you feel and what you want. Don't give him an ultimatum or threaten him with other men - that's not fair. Don't try to read his mind. Be honest, open up to him, and see what happens. I don't see what else you can do unless you are prepared to accept that this is "enough" - and you clearly aren't.