Can this ever be enough?

[RagRugs]

I've been struggling a lot recently. I've posted on here and had some great advice but much of it seems to be centred around seeking counselling or therapy. I've had both on and off for nearly 30 years and, whilst I've seen minor shifts, it's not really working for me any more. My insight is great. I know exactly why I think and feel the way I do but I don't seem to be able to change it. I can fake it for a while, I have the confidence to ignore some of core beliefs etc but they are still there and, as soon as I'm put under any pressure or challenged, they come back. This is partly because, in some cases and sense, they are true. In others, it's because they have been reinforced so many times and by so many people over the years that I'm almost a lone voice in saying that they're not. Which makes it difficult.

I'm going to try and keep it brief...

I have competing narratives in my head.

On one hand, I have never been loved, I want it and don't see the point in wasting time with men who aren't going to love me and who I'm never going to love. I date men for a short time and then walk when they demonstrate that they don't respect me or will never love me.

But, equally, I should have known these relationships would never result in love or longevity. Every 'relationship' I have ever had has been incompatible with love in some way. There is always a distance - eg emotional; geographical; chronological; intellectual...

But I feel intimidated by, and unworthy of, men who are more my 'equal' or who live closer or are just a more viable option. I feel embarrassed that they might think I'm interested.

I feel more comfortable around married men. I don't flirt with them! I've never been an affair partner and wouldn't. I have too much self respect and too much respect for their wives. But the 'non threatening' aspect of them being unavailable means I find them more comfortable company.

I have been involved with a man for 18 months which is the longest positive experience of a 'relationship' I've ever had. I don't (think I) love him and I know he doesn't love me although there is clearly am attachment there. In many ways, it looks like a relationship. We behave quite 'coupley' when we are out with other couples; we spend every weekend together; we are supportive of each other; he's done many things to show me he cares but, over the last few weeks, it has started to feel a bit empty.

In many ways, this man meets my needs for companionship and I'm sure I do for him too. But it's starting to feel a bit 'hollow' without the emotion and commitment to back it up. I don't really want to just to be with someone to fill a mutual void in our lives. I want to be loved.

I know many will say, 'End it and find someone who loves you," But, to me, that's like telling someone to leave their job and win the lottery instead! I've never had what I've got with him before. Nor been loved. It would be unfathomable to me now. Inconceivable that it could happen. I'm not even sure I'd be receptive to it or recognise it.

I feel a bit like those women who post on here who have 2 children but really want a 3rd when their partner says no. The advice is often to leave and find someone who wants that 3rd child with them. When it isn't that simple! Other women tell them to be satisfied with the 2 children they have. What would a 3rd bring that they don't already have with 2? What if they never meet anyone and end up bring up those 2 children alone?

That's how it feels.

It feels like I'd be leaving something that works quite well but is lacking in something I'm yearning for. Something that has ticked along quite nicely for 18 months so far. And for what? The hope that, in my 40s I'll find something I never managed in my 20s and 30s?

The frustrating thing is that he is the person I wanted to discuss this with and process thoughts about it with but because of the situation, I feel like i can't be candid about it.

It's completely consuming me at the moment.

I don't want to lose what I have with this man because it suits us both well for as long as it lasts. I just don't know if it can be enough.

I found the exercises helpful but within weeks of it finishing, they stopped helping and I've just gone back.

Was that because they stopped, or because you stopped doing them when not held accountable? I am massively guilty of this.

OP you are saying I don't need anything from anyone. I just want to be loved
this actually means that you want love from someone.
Because you don't see the contradiction in your core believes results in not being able to comprehend most of advice on this thread.

You want to be loved..
But
Do you love yourself??
Because in all your posts, the way you speak about yourself, you don't seem to love yourself. You don't seem to appreciate yourself, undenearrh it all you don't think you are worthy of live, and unless you change this, you will never find love. Not because people won't love you, but because you will never actually believe them that they do. You may not realise it but everything you say and do, pushes them away from you.

It's very likely ur exes did love you you, but they fell out of love, it happens. And just because at breakup someone says they never loved you, that's not necessarily true either. It's one of those hurtful things that people say sometimes when they break up.

You need to feel lovable
You need to learn to love yourself.
You need to learn to recognise how love looks like
You need to learn to recognise how love feels like
Loving is risking getting hurt
How can you find love if you don't take the risk?

Currently you wouldn't recognise love if it was the elephant in the room lol

Was that because they stopped, or because you stopped doing them when not held accountable? I am massively guilty of this.

Ha, I know what you mean. No.i still did the ones I found most useful. And on a day to day basis, it made a difference hut as soon as I had a 'bad' day, it was all undone and I really tried to get back on track with it and just couldn't. Not that I couldn't do the exercises, just that they didn't have the same effect.

Cloudfrost

With respect. They didn't. I ignored all the words and actions that demonstrated they didn't and only saw what I wanted to. I thought that if my mother believed someone loved me then she would look to see what they saw. But they weren't loving relationships at any point. People keep talking about 'love languages'. My eldest's father didn't demonstrate any of them but he was incredibly good looking, very damaged by his own experiences, was violent and raped me. There was no love there and he's never seen his child (now 23). My youngest's father was addressing his own sense of inadequacy. He wanted to do the right thing and support me because we were friends. We both realised very early on - within weeks - that it was wrong. It should have ended then but each of us stayed in it for our own reasons. That wasn't a loving relationship either and it became increasingly toxic as the years went on. There was no 'falling out of love' because there was no 'in love'.

I've never felt safe or loved or valued or respected in any relationship.

Men have obviously fancied me in the past and still sometimes do given by the number of married men who still try it on but no one has ever loved me.

It isn't that I've been loved but haven't recognised it or accepted it. I genuinely haven't had it.

OK my apologies for assuming things about your exes. But please don't ignore the part that u need to love yourself and feel worthy of love otherwise u will keep getting involved with people that are unsuitable to give u what u want

Yes, it sounds like the men in your life haven't loved you.

But that's not because of you. It's not proof that you're not lovable. I guarantee you that they didn't love any other woman or any other person in their life either. It's ZERO reflection on you.

Also, romantic love is far from the only kind of love. Your children love you. I expect friends and maybe other family members also love you. Therefore you are not unlovable. Therefore there is every possibility of you finding a loving romantic relationship too, if you want that.

What does love look like to you? You mention several things that I would consider to be people demonstrating love and care towards you, but you say that you know for sure it's nothing to do with love. So what would make you feel loved?

@Cloudfrost

OK my apologies for assuming things about your exes. But please don't ignore the part that u need to love yourself and feel worthy of love otherwise u will keep getting involved with people that are unsuitable to give u what u want

I appreciate what you're saying but I don't see how it makes a difference.

I can see how I might tolerate bad behaviour thinking I don't deserve better but I don't do that. I can see how I might ignore red flags thinking at least they don't do X but I don't do that either. Etc

The other thing is that I know plenty of people who don't 'love themselves' but who have long standing loving relationships with a partner or who are loved by their families. It's their imperfections and flaws that make them them and they are loved in spite of those.

This man has a friend who I've not been introduced to who is, by all accounts, 'hard work'. She hasn't worked for 20 years and her friends regularly take 'time out' from her because she is very negative and can be quite unkind to them. Yet, in the past 12onths, even she has met someone who is a really nice guy and adores her.

The world is full of people who aren't 'the best version of themselves' and they are still loved. If only people who were perfectly adjusted people with no trauma, no baggage, no mental health issues, no negative traits, who loved themselves completely were able to be loved, then I wonder how many people would actually be loved? Most people are told someone will love them just the way they are.

He called me last night and he's coming round this evening. I'm going tojave to say something because, at the moment, I just feel very hostile towards the whole thing.

Essentially, I want to tell him that I really enjoy what we have and spending time with him but I don't want a casual relationship or whatever he thinks this is. I don't want to getarried or cohabit with him, or anyone else, but remaining in a situation where I know I'm not loved is just reinforcing the idea that I can't be loved and requires to accept that and, at the moment, I'm just not ready to.

Other than my relationships with my children's fathers which, I admit, I stayed in for far too long, I've never had anything lasting beyond 6 months and I just feel I've allowed this situation to continue because I haven't wanted to admit to myself and others that it's no different. I'm so permanently single that, when I introduced him to my friends, some of them joked that they'd originally thought he was just a figment of my imagination.

I always feel stronger, more contended and more confident without a man around anyway. But this persistent feeling of being unlovable just feels like living with a broken heart all day, everyday for the past 30+ years and it's getting worse. When I was younger, I just assumed it would happen one day because everyone said it would. But as the years roll by, its looking less amd less likely and the scales are weighted so heavily against it...

Essentially, I want to tell him that I really enjoy what we have and spending time with him but I don't want a casual relationship or whatever he thinks this is. I don't want to getarried or cohabit with him, or anyone else, but remaining in a situation where I know I'm not loved is just reinforcing the idea that I can't be loved and requires to accept that and, at the moment, I'm just not ready to.

The first part of this is fine. But instead of saying you know he doesn't love you, why not ASK him whether he sees the relationship developing beyond what it is now? "I really like spending time with you, but I am looking for something more serious. Not marriage or living together, but something that is more committed. How about you? Do you see our relationship going that way?"

Give him the respect and the space to have his own feelings, whatever they are.

I guarantee you that they didn't love any other woman or any other person in their life either. It's ZERO reflection on you.

I think that is probably certainly true of my eldest father. We looked him up online a couple of years ago and he presents a very tragic vision of a very angry man nowadays. It was almost scary. My son has no desire to ever meet him. He appears to have fathered 2 other children with a woman who refuses to allow him contact. He was very angry about that.

However, my youngest's father met someone else and has been very much in love and very happy since we split up. He loves the children and has a very close family who he loves very much. I do take into account longevity of friendships and closeness of family when I consider dating someone to try and avoid emotionally unavailable men.

As for me, I do struggle with friendships at times but I have a few close ones. As I said before, my family has ony ever been parents, one sibling and one grandparent. My dad and grandma died 10 years ago and I went no contact with my mother at around the same time.other than my children and sibling (who I see around 3 times a year), I have no family. Essentially, we didn't grow up around love or experience it from anyone.

Most of the men I've dated have previously loved women or gone on to love one afterwards with the exception of one whose love life appeared to have been very similar to mine. He told me he thought I'd be very easy to love. But still didn't 🙄

I have no idea what would make me feel loved. I suppose feeling safe. I don't know.

The first part of this is fine. But instead of saying you know he doesn't love you, why not ASK him whether he sees the relationship developing beyond what it is now? "I really like spending time with you, but I am looking for something more serious. Not marriage or living together, but something that is more committed. How about you? Do you see our relationship going that way?"

That's much better. Thanks. I don't think I'd be able to ask him that though! I think I'd leave it before the question.

That could possibly work. Just leave a silence there for him to respond.

But I'm wondering what you're so frightened of about asking him? He can only answer one of two ways: you're on the same page or you're not. This is his chance to say, "I really like spending time with you, too, and I'm open to making it more of a commitment." Or, "I'm happy with the way things are, and I'm not looking for anything more serious."

Which answer frightens you the most? Or is it that simply asking the question reveals a vulnerability and that's what scares you? I totally understand that, but you can't have love without vulnerability. I do think that's the wall you are coming up against here.

Or is it that simply asking the question reveals a vulnerability and that's what scares you?

Yes. I think it's that.

Well there you go. That's the thing you need to work on. Loving relationships are based on shared vulnerability. If you want a loving relationship and to feel loved by another, you need to be able to be vulnerable with them.

This man may not be the one to do that with, but maybe it would be good for you to practice being a bit vulnerable with him. It might not be as horrible as you think. Whatever his answer is, you are doing the right thing for yourself by opening up this little tiny bit, and I bet you will feel good about having the courage to do so.

Some people I know who don’t love themselves make it very hard to be loved.
They almost will it away.
Do you think you might be doing that, in which case you’re just proving your own case.

Do you want someone to fight very hard to love you? Because most people won’t, they want it to be easy. Most people want love to be easy.

I think the second relationship you had has made everything a bit more complex, he was a friend who thought he might feel something more but didn’t, then stayed for the sake of children? But you thought you might have felt something more to, but didn’t. So no one was in the wrong there per say. That was just life. Most people have had a relationship where they weren’t loved by someone. That’s pretty normal. Usually those relationships end swiftly, you (and he) decided to continue, have you thought about why you continued for 10 years like that?

I don’t know you but I would say you’re a classic “avoidant” you push love away. But perhaps I am wrong. And pushing love away can be subconscious and conscious at the same time. You know you’re intellectually doing it, but you still don’t know how you’re doing it.

No one ever felt love without giving into vulnerability. Ever.

@beastlyslumber

Well there you go. That's the thing you need to work on. Loving relationships are based on shared vulnerability. If you want a loving relationship and to feel loved by another, you need to be able to be vulnerable with them.

This man may not be the one to do that with, but maybe it would be good for you to practice being a bit vulnerable with him. It might not be as horrible as you think. Whatever his answer is, you are doing the right thing for yourself by opening up this little tiny bit, and I bet you will feel good about having the courage to do so.

Yes. Maybe you're right. Thank you. I've got to say something. I don't want to keep feeling like this.

@Monkeybusinesss

Some people I know who don’t love themselves make it very hard to be loved. They almost will it away. Do you think you might be doing that, in which case you’re just proving your own case.

Do you want someone to fight very hard to love you? Because most people won’t, they want it to be easy. Most people want love to be easy.

I think the second relationship you had has made everything a bit more complex, he was a friend who thought he might feel something more but didn’t, then stayed for the sake of children? But you thought you might have felt something more to, but didn’t. So no one was in the wrong there per say. That was just life. Most people have had a relationship where they weren’t loved by someone. That’s pretty normal. Usually those relationships end swiftly, you (and he) decided to continue, have you thought about why you continued for 10 years like that?

I don’t know you but I would say you’re a classic “avoidant” you push love away. But perhaps I am wrong. And pushing love away can be subconscious and conscious at the same time. You know you’re intellectually doing it, but you still don’t know how you’re doing it.

I would say that I'm more conscious of not having now than I ever have been previously. Like i say, in the past, I just assumed it would happen at some point. Now I'm older, less attractive, and more battle weary, I just don't see how it could happen.

I decided to stay in the relationship because I didn't want to lose his friendship; I wanted to be 'normal' - like everyone else; I thought my mum would try to love me if she thought someone else did; I didn't want my children to come from a broken home; for the most part, we got on well - we still do although we only speak about the children nowadays; I suppose I didn't think there was much chance of me meeting anyone else. We got on well there just wasn't a romantic/sexual attraction there. And I guess it was safe. He knew all of my shit - we'd been friends for 10 years. He was brilliant at handling mum and stepped up massively when my dad had cancer. My mum used to phone him when she knew I was out intending to have a mutual bitching session and he had my back very time.

It is pretty normal to have a relationship where you're not loved but to never have one where you are?

I think you were probably quite close with knowing that I push people away Intellectually but not knowing how i do it. I have been conscious of pushing some people.away but at times, and with some people, I have allowed myself, and made a conscious decision, to be vulnerable. But it's made no difference.

I think what i find hard with this man is that, on paper, it should have been easy. We met through friends so have a number of mutual friends; we have similar hobbies and interests - there are differences but the day to day stuff; we're well matched intellectually; he only lives 20 mins away; he's a decent man; he's great with my children; i find him attractive; we've shared things about our families and pasts etc In so many ways, it ticks all the boxes. I just don't understand how i can manage all that and still not be loved.

Well I don’t entirely believe that you’re not loved.
You haven’t given much concrete evidence either way, and surely you know that if you’re not loved then it’s a friendship and you simply move the relationship over, if both parties are ok with that.

So what makes you stay in limbo for so long with these men.

You say it’s odd to have never been loved, but all I can see is you’ve given all your time and energy to people you aren’t compatible with and that hasn’t allowed you to have a loving relationship- where’s the time for one!

@Monkeybusinesss

Well I don’t entirely believe that you’re not loved. You haven’t given much concrete evidence either way, and surely you know that if you’re not loved then it’s a friendship and you simply move the relationship over, if both parties are ok with that.

So what makes you stay in limbo for so long with these men.

You say it’s odd to have never been loved, but all I can see is you’ve given all your time and energy to people you aren’t compatible with and that hasn’t allowed you to have a loving relationship- where’s the time for one!

Well i was with my eldest's father between 21 and 23.any my youngest's father between 25 and 37. During which time, I spent 4 years at university, started a new career and was raising children. Most of my time was spent dealing with dealing with fallout from mother's latest 'behaviours' and my dad's cancer. I wouldn't have had the mental, physical or emotional time to pursue any other relationship even if i had been single.

I've spent most of the past 10 years completely single. I've been involved with this man for 18 months but most of that was during lockdown and, prior to that, I had three or four 3-6 month long things and the odd date here and there. So it's not like I've constantly been in crap relationships.

I'm not particularly fussed abut a relationship generally but, if I'm going to be involved with someone, I'd rather it was real and not just a 'good enough until someone better comes along' thing.

I've been asked out 3 times in the last 3 months. I wouldn't have entertained any of them so I don't feel I'm 'wasting time' with this man but I just don't know if i can be bothered if this is all it is.

It has helped put it into perspective a little bit but i still don't know if it's answered my original question of whether it can be enough without love.

Hi OP, I second the PP who talked about loving yourself. I also think that the example you gave of the unpleasant woman who still managed to find a man who loves her does sound like she probably loves herself - holds herself in high esteem. Do you hold yourself in high esteem? It doesn't sound like you do.

Love is a noun, a verb and a process. How can you show yourself ways in which you matter to yourself, what self-care can you mindfully practice to develop feelings of self esteem?

I think this is the most effective thing you can do in order to be able to start to open up to accepting love from other people. That and noticing and appreciating all the small ways that people show you they care. You seem to be looking for something really big, this feeling of being loved. Anything that is really big is actually made up of lots of really small thing 《flowers》

If I dated anyone where it was like my first two relationships, I'd be out of them within minutes nowadays. I didn't know about red flags in those days and, with my youngest's father, I didnexpress concern toy mother in the early days and she toldenthat, as I already had one failed relationship behind me, I couldn't afford another amd should be grateful I had someone who was willing to take me. It hadn't occurred to me i could just be single. But then I wouldn't have got through university without his moral support.

@JustGiveMeTwoMinutes

Hi OP, I second the PP who talked about loving yourself. I also think that the example you gave of the unpleasant woman who still managed to find a man who loves her does sound like she probably loves herself - holds herself in high esteem. Do you hold yourself in high esteem? It doesn't sound like you do.

Love is a noun, a verb and a process. How can you show yourself ways in which you matter to yourself, what self-care can you mindfully practice to develop feelings of self esteem?

I think this is the most effective thing you can do in order to be able to start to open up to accepting love from other people. That and noticing and appreciating all the small ways that people show you they care. You seem to be looking for something really big, this feeling of being loved. Anything that is really big is actually made up of lots of really small thing 《flowers》

Well all I know of her is that she is very negative about herself and her life and hard on other people to the point that her friends don't spend a lot of time with her. She hasn't worked in over 20 years and rarely leaves the house. I'm sure that if I'd come on and said that was my life, people would (rightly) suggest that addressing some of those issues would be where i should start. I don't know if she loves herself but i do understand she is very beautiful. So maybe that's it 🤷🏻‍♀️

In terms of self care, well I eat well, I spend a lot of time outside in nature, I do a lot of things alone - eg go out for dinner amd to gigs/festivals. I recently went away for the weekend on my own. I have sociable hobbies and spend time working on those. I generally treat myself well.

I've had a very difficult week this week mentally but have still gone put twice for hobbies, been to friends' houses for dinner and spent quality time with my daughter. Next weekend, I'm going away for the weekend for one of my hobbies. I feel like I do all the things I'm 'supposed' to and, when I'm single, I'm generally happier but very lonely and this need to be loved still torments me.

I also prioritise the time I spend doing hobbies and with my friends. That doesn't mean I don't make time for someone I'm dating but I don't push those other things to one side for them. They're very important to me.

Do you love yourself OP. I don't think I've ready anything in your posts where you mention that you have accepted yourself as you are, you're still very critical of yourself. And you don't mention about loving yourself.

I wonder perhaps if you have been loved and have just never know what it actually was.

I've got to say something. I don't want to keep feeling like this.

Good luck. I think you will feel better for saying something, no matter what the outcome is.