Question for the cheaters out there

[Runrabbitw]

I’m not looking to start a witch hunt, but I’d really like to hear from people who have cheated and how they can live with it? I would be an anxious mess if I did something like that, I’m trying to wrap my head around how my ex can do it. I’ve spent the last 2 years falling for his lies and I just don’t understand. I don’t think he is a nasty person, but how does he keep on doing it , knowing that he is hurting me?
How do people flip from one person to another, over and over?

@AnotherVice

It's unfortunate that your fundamental right to be happy had 'at the expense of another human being' attatched to it.

Your quote of living the dream could not possibly be achieved by someone with a conscience. That feeling of guilt would invade my happiness.

It is a massive planet could you not have met someone who was single and available, it is strange how you have not one jot of empathy towards his wife and family, however bad you feel your own marriage was, does it not take away the 'shine' for your love?

Do you think as time goes on your realisation of the hurt you both caused will become more visable to you.
Have you not been together long?

[quote Macaroni46]@JustAQuickThrowaway I don't think you're selfish. I think to an extent your DH is. He can no longer meet your needs sexually, through no fault of his own but nevertheless, he can't. Yet he expects you to remain celibate and not have your needs met. You were open with him and suggested an open relationship which he declined. Therefore, you are pursuing the only option available to you. You have needs too.
I wish you all the best in what sounds like a very difficult situation. [/quote]
It's not the only option.
She could give him an ultimatum, open relationship or she has to end the relationship.
He might choose to let her go.

@Ladybug123

‘I don't know why posters who are so aghast at the ramifications of cheating keep flocking to a thread about it? Why? If it upsets you so much, what is your gain?’

You don’t know why people who have had real experience of the impact of infidelity would flock to a thread about infidelity? Ok. Strange.

‘People who are happy/love their partner do not cheat. However much the cheated-on person needs to believe otherwise, they just don't.’

Actually there is PLENTY of statistical evidence to the contrary. You could argue they don’t have a true perception of what love is BUT many do believe they love their partners.

If it was just about not being happy in their current relationship and not loving their spouse then we wouldn’t have statistical evidence for dire outcomes for relationships with the affair partner. Which actually is seen anecdotally in this thread.

If it was just about the relationship and ‘poor sausages not having their needs met’ it is strange that you are statistically three to four times more likely to cheat again in a subsequent relationship than someone who has not cheated.

And in answer to your rather strange opening question I’m here and will continue to post to question the narrative around cheating. I am not the only one in a happy, settled, loving relationship until my husband cheated. He would be more than happy to sit down and give you his reasons BUT our marriage and relationship isn’t one of them.

I don't think cheating is black and white or that cheaters are all bad people, but they don't love their partner the way they deserve to be loved and they don't care about them the way they should.

You said it's not just about not being happy in their relationship and not loving their spouse or there wouldn't be statistical evidence for dire outcomes for relationships with the affair partner...that's just your own way of interpreting that statistical evidence and there's lots of angles to look at...such as the pressure for the new relationship to work while dealing with the fallout from the initial relationship ending, issues with kids perhaps, money issues if they have to move out, perhaps having to move in together before they're ready, suddenly becoming a serious real relationship dealing with the day to day stuff together, instead of how it would be in a regular relationship where it would be more gradual, dealing with guilt and shame, lack of trust in the new relationship as a result of how they got together, dealing with judgement from others.

While they might bond over feeling like Romeo and Juliet or feeling like they were meant to be there is also a LOT working against them too.

I cheated on my first love and next boyfriend.

I got with my first love at 15, moved in with him within weeks. I got with him 3mths after my brother died, he also knew him. I had a horrific childhood and was running away from that. We got engaged when I was 18 - it was wrong for me and I literally went into self destruct mode. And in all honesty I didn’t care who I hurt; I was hurting and wanted everyone else to hurt too. I ended the relationship 6mths before our wedding and within months got with my next boyfriend.

It was toxic from day one, we should never have been together. We lived and work together and that made it all a hundred times worse. He cheated on me and so I cheated on him. One day we decided to call it a day, the next day he kicked ten barrels of shit out of me. I also found he had taken loans and credit cards out in my name - over £40k!

At 22 I was homeless, in debt up to my eyeballs and jobless. I had a breakdown. This led into years of MH issues.

At 29 after 7yrs of being single, lots of therapy and antidepressants I met DH. I can honestly say after 13yrs together I have never been tempted to cheat on him. I still have severe MH issues but he ‘gets’ me.

I know I was young when I cheated and my issues don’t excuse my behaviour at all. I’m still very good friends with my first love, he knows everything and ‘gets’ the reasons why I did what I did and I’m grateful he found it in him to forgive me.

This isn’t just MY interpretation. These are the stats that back up current thinking in the psychology around infidelity.

@spicychickenwing

I think its because in this country we cannot talk about relationships calmly and maturely including that they may have a shelf life. Until we get better at those extremely difficult conversations then cheating will continue to happen. We need to talk about our unhappiness in relationships honestly to understand if it is a phase or fatal. The irony is that most people are so afraid of hurting their partner by sharing these feelings that they end up doing something which hurts them far more.

I firmly believe cheating is a symptom of something and not a cause. Happy people in fulfilling relationships with good mental health do not as a rule go off on a path of destruction. Because i believe that most people are inherently good even the ones who make these mistakes.

When we flame and castigate and judge these people we miss out on all the learning opportunities for them to do better next time and us all avoid it by forcing it underground and stigmatising it.

I think its a bigger problem with our society and lives and concepts of marriage and long term relationships-and not that vast swathes of people are evil love rats.

This.

I just don't think human beings are programmed to be with one person. Affairs have been around through the ages - it was just covered up and wives 'put up with it' as back in the day as most were dependent on their husbands financially and the shame of divorce.
It is cruel and hurtful to be cheated on and in an ideal world respect should come in to play but sadly it does not - it is temptation and the thrill of meeting someone new

I couldn't do it. I find it so disrespectful and it saddens me it happened in my last relationship. I won't ever be hurt like that again.

@Ladybug123

This isn’t just MY interpretation. These are the stats that back up current thinking in the psychology around infidelity.

Statistics can be read in many ways. It depends on what you're looking for!

And psychology is a bunch of theories!
And I say that as someone with a degree in it!

There are also issues with any self-reported data. People might say they were happy, that doesn't mean that they were!

There's statistics out there with self-reported 'straight' men who say they have sex with men (not for money etc but out of choice). Just because they say they're straight when taking the survey doesn't mean that they were!

Right… yeah… they were only claiming to be happy.,, ok… I think I’m done here because my eyes can’t roll enough.

Ladybug you've chosen to stay with your husband. Your choice but this is a man who - whatever he has told you - has proved to you that he didn't love or care for you enough to not cheat. How are you so naive as to think that he was happy in the relationship with you?

That isn't any kind of assessment of you, not at all. It's about him. The lying, cheating louse. I winced at your proclamation that he's working so hard to put it right, has done this and that to look deep into himself and his behaviour. Too little, too late. He should have done that before starting a relationship with another woman.

You can believe what you want - and you need to do that as you've forgiven him - but don't lecture other people based on your experience of frankly, a cheating liar who didn't put you first. If your perception is that you've gained something good then, I'm sorry for you.

Of course he's going to say that he was happy - he wanted to be forgiven. Ask yourself why that is? Why he wasn't willing to give up his home comforts after all? See children intermittently? Spend a fortune on finding somewhere else to live. It's men that do this - expect forgiveness - and get it.

I'm really sorry that you and others who've been betrayed are on this thread because it isn't any sort of comfort to you.

Wow that’s so spiteful and personal.

You don’t know anything about my relationship and you know nothing about what happened in the aftermath.

Don’t say sorry to me or any other betrayed when you’ve gone for the jugular like that.

That’s wicked and quite frankly you should be ashamed of yourself.

I have tried to argue on here in a reasoned way. I’ve pointed out statistics as well as real life situations. I’ve tried to bring balance to the ‘bad relationship’ narrative and I would hope I’ve always been respectful.

I’m honestly aghast that instead of debating you just go for destroying my choice to reconcile. What a nasty thing to do.

@Ladybug123

Right… yeah… they were only claiming to be happy.,, ok… I think I’m done here because my eyes can’t roll enough.

I'm not sure why you're rolling your eyes, you keep going on about statistics as if they prove anything. They don't.

Personally I actually think it's far worse that anyone would cheat if they were happy, how the hell could the cheater be trusted again if they cheated while they were happy? It's so much worse!

My boyfriend cheated on me for ages. He did break up with me but then continued to try and get back together and work on things. I only found out about his other girlfriend when we were close to reuniting. He’s now moved in with her. She doesn’t know I exist though.
I know it’s totally different because the OW didn’t know she was the OW but I sure hope their relationship crashes and burns.
I feel like I’ll never be the same person again…

Ladybug I'm being neither spiteful or personal. It's the same scenario always, it's not about you and this thread wasn't about you either.

I'm not destroying your choice to carry on with your relationship - it's your relationship, what does my opinion matter to you? I've been on both sides of this and it's really, really difficult to engage in any sort of discussion with such a blinkered view. I understand it but I can't tiptoe around it and don't think that I should have to. If you (general) accept that there is a 'script' then you also accept the sub-text of it.

I'm sorry for your pain. I'm not apologising for my post(s), again, it isn't personal and it's not about you for the reasons I've said.

Cheater's cheat because they are entitled, not because they are unhappy.

The majority of cheaters I have known had the upper hand in their relationships and seriously took their partner's love for granted.
They were happy at home with the status quo but wanted extra, as I've said before cheaters tend to be self centered individuals who are so self assured they cannot see or fear the consequenses.

Being utterly selfish in life doesn't mean you are unhappy !

@Ladybug123 is not wrong in her assesment that her partner was happy, she knows him, he stayed, why would you state otherwise.
He didn't leave her for a partner who he knew to be just as selfish and lacking in morals as he was.

No that's the irony, many cheaters do not wan't to be with other cheaters full time.

It's so easy to turn this crap round, but the bottom line is some people like insulting good people who had the good sense, morals and loyalty to keep the family unit from being destroyed, instead of excuse making to assuage their guilt.

Some people do not wish to hurt others, some do not care.
There are many people who live a life without the ramifications and dialogue of affairs in their life, it's just here on MN, we have the betrayed and the affair apologists trying to ease their pain or dampen their guilt, so it seems like a majority.

There are plenty of people who are intellegent enough for love, fair, honest and reciprocal love that requires selflessness at times from BOTH parties.

@spicychickenwing

You seem to wish to fault society when I belive the fault lies with individuals.
Just because you believe there are a lot of cheaters does not mean it is right and should become the norm.

There are many things in society that we would be better off without.
Lying cheating individuals who have no empathy are a breed that would be better phased out.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

I agree you shouldn't have to tip toe around your view, it is your view and you are free to present it.

As spiceychicken brought up society, I think that is a good point about the bigger picture...

There seems to be an unspoken economic aspect of cheaters. For monogomous faithful couples there is an unspoken frowning upon of betrayers, betraying their children and offspring.

Human nature pairs up couples for the best chance of survival of their children, this doesn't seem to be in the forefront of many cheater's minds.

I knew a woman, who had been married 4 times, each relationship overlapped the next, 3 children, lost contact with the real father, they were jostled through all marriages.

The real father was wealthy, he left his children nothing, the mother died before the last stepfather died. The stepfather signed everthing over before he died to his own children.

Money is usually thought of as crass to be talked of, as apposed to feelings, but I can tell you those children did feel abandoned, all because their mother was continually in a quest for her romantic hit.

The kids never entered into it.

Why don't some people put their children and family unit before their own needs, is that unblinkered enough for you?

Many betrayed partners think of cheaters as simple and superficial, chasing rediculous romantic unicorns, with no common sense, it's not all about hate.

Many betrayers seem to have the view that we betrayed are all about being bitter and twisted, of course we see the wood for the trees, it's just our values and what's important in the long term and beyond that are completely different to cheaters.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe how is
“How are you so naive that you think he was happy in the relationship with you?” not an assessment of Ladybug and her relationship? Have you not assessed her as naive here?
“If your perception is you’ve gained something good, I’m sorry for you.” So you’ve just assessed Ladybug’s perception. You’ve assessed from a very small amount of information that Ladybug is worthy of your pity, presumably because you think (despite being a total stranger to her, him and their relationship) that she’s a fool to believe him.
“It’s not an assessment of you” is not true. You’ve assessed him also, but your opinions are assessments of Ladybug.
It’s impossible to form and state an opinion without assessing anything.
You’re entitled to this opinion, and it’s as valid as anyone else’s, if that’s what you think, you’re absolutely entitled to it, but you state that it’s not an assessment of her when it clearly is. You’ve made an assessment of her, her husband and her situation with no personal knowledge of them or what actually happened or is happening.
I agree with you that some men do indeed feign remorse for forgiveness and cynically stay in their relationship and eventually cheat again, but some actually don’t. They learn from it and value what they have. For some it’s a horrendous life lesson. I know someone whose husband committed suicide because he couldn’t live with what he did to his family. His self loathing killed him and he was hardly a cynical serial cheat.
People with personal issues can turn themselves around. Counsellors make a living helping people do this.
You’ve just lumped all who cheat as being the same and incapable of any kind of personal growth or redemption. There are no absolutes in life except death.
I’ve dumped one cheat without a backward glance in my life and stayed with another. Totally different people and different circumstances. One was absolutely capable of being cynical in his “remorse” and capable of doing it again and still is, as far as I know. The other a totally different kettle of fish.
We’re all on a spectrum somewhere and without knowing people and their situations an assessment of any kind is unfair and patchy at best.

Thewookiemustgo, Yes I see that. I was talking generally but then did assess based on the information give by Ladybug, it's absolutely not my business and I shouldn't have made assessments at all.

I don't believe that all people are irredeemable but I think that all cheaters calculate 'best odds' based on their knowledge of the people they attempt to reconcile with - and I believe that they will say anything, do anything - without necessarily believing or meaning a word of it. Whatever will achieve the end result is what they will say and do.

I also do not believe that people happy in their relationships, cheat. Not all who are unhappy will cheat but all who cheat, are/were.

I know I've upset Ladybug, it wasn't intentional and I'm going to give it a rest now.

@spicychickenwing

Regarding:

its because in this country we cannot talk about relationships calmly and maturely including that they may have a shelf life

I agree with your statement...

I firmly believe cheating is a symptom of something and not a cause. Happy people in fulfilling relationships with good mental health do not as a rule go off on a path of destruction.

... however, there are two factors at play here - the state of the relationship and the state of the cheater's mental health - and I feel your only addressing one of them. I agree many cheaters cheat when something was going wrong in their world (a view shared by Shirley Glass, who pioneered much of the research @Ladybug123 talks about, when she, as a marriage counsellor, was baffled by how many cheaters had no complaints about their spouse).

However, many here assume it must be the relationship that was going wrong. But as PPs here have posted, that doesn't have to be the case. It could be a career tanking, a bereavement, a midlife crisis, the reality of parenting young kids... the list goes on. Or it might be a long-term mental health issue - something they need therapy to sort out.

Why do they cheat? IMO, often for the same reason some people turn to drink, drugs or gambling. To self-medicalise. Take the PP who stated she gave so much for her kids she felt she was entitled to be a bit selfish. However, you wouldn't tell the spouse of a gambling addict that a flaw in their relationship was what was keeping him at the slot machines.

So whilst "We need to talk about our unhappiness in relationships honestly to understand if it is a phase or fatal" is a noble thought, in my opinion it only addresses a narrow sliver of actual causes that could be completely unrelated to the relationship itself. I have two kids with SEN issues. One had colic as a baby. Believe me, I was very unhappy with life at that point and my mental health wasn't good. I can complegtely see how a bit of a Romeo and Juliet style love affair at that point would have made me feel a lot better. But that had nothing to do with the quality of my then-spouse who was as equally drained by events as I.

And there it is the get out clause for the OW or OM.......

"I also do not believe that people happy in relationships, cheat. Not all who are unhappy will cheat but all who cheat, are/were."

Affairs happen for many reasons opportunity, ego, thrill, boredom, fear, distance not always for the reason of being unhappy.
My own husband was at the time riding high with a boost in self confidence with buisness, enjoying life and combined with the flattery of new friends he thought he deserved more.

He wasn't unhappy with me, he just went through a stage of excessive self esteem and over confidence.

So no he wasn't unhappy, he was just incredibly selfish to jepodise over 35 years of friendship , care and love and took it for granted.

He gambled and lost ..... me anyway.
He has regrets.

Was I ever in doubt that at some point his ridiculous ego trip would end?
No I wasn't, but that is where Ladybug, Wookie and I differ, maybe their husbands showed enough romorse, maybe they themselves are more forgiving but it does not by any strettch of the imagination make them gullible or fools.
They have weighed up their options and through sheer selflessness decided to keep in tact their family unit, for whatever reasons they have put others feelings above their own, I don't doubt that.

What is certain though is that it is their right to make that choice, whether or not to rip up their marriage contract is up to them even when a third party has to done their utmost to intervene in the marriage.

What I do take offence with though is this 'every person has to be unhappy', it is an excuse, it is patronising to tell someone in a long marriage that has it's ups and downs, good times and bad, trials and tribulations that a third party has every right to intervene when a period of hardship is occuring.

Because they have no conscience, self respect or honesty. They're people I wouldn't associate with. If they can do that to someone they "love" I imagine they have even less respect for other people in their lives. And cheater enablers and excusers are just as bad.

Nowadays its normal to be unfaithful.

Not where I am. Pretty sad for you that this is what you know as normal.... Or is that to make yourself better for being one of these cretins? Odd statement.

As for people who flip from one to another I have never understood either. Some people can't be alone for a second and have to have the next bed lined up before they leave. I could think of nothing worse. Its pretty gross IMO but then I take my time to get naked and sleep with people so jumping into the next bed so I didn't go a day without a root is pretty ordinary. But there are many people both men and women who have little respect for themselves that NEED to be partnered at all times. It's weird to me but a lot of people do it. A work colleague split up with her long time partner a while back had to have a day off work when we were short staffed to deal with it, following month she's looking to buy a house with her new flame. That certainly was quick! And something I truly don't get but many move even faster than her. It's odd. I'd rather be self sufficient and able to operate without having a partner at all times, it just isn't a necessity for me.

@IfIHadAHeart

I think it depends on the type of cheating. One night stand is different to an ongoing relationship with someone.

No it’s not! Cheating is cheating!