Question for the cheaters out there

[Runrabbitw]

I’m not looking to start a witch hunt, but I’d really like to hear from people who have cheated and how they can live with it? I would be an anxious mess if I did something like that, I’m trying to wrap my head around how my ex can do it. I’ve spent the last 2 years falling for his lies and I just don’t understand. I don’t think he is a nasty person, but how does he keep on doing it , knowing that he is hurting me?
How do people flip from one person to another, over and over?

I don’t think you have to have cheated yourself to understand what reasons for cheating might be, and I think it’s a very grey area indeed. The black and white bit for me is whether it’s right/wrong whatever the grey areas surrounding it.
I’d never judge a person as good/ bad, we’ve all got both within ourselves. I’d judge the behaviour of cheating as ‘bad’ though, and hope that as an inherently good person they’d make better choices in the future.
I think cheaters, affair partners and the victims of cheating are all as capable of lying to themselves to make themselves feel better as each other. That doesn’t make it follow that every cheater must necessarily be in an unhappy relationship though. They might be. They equally might not. On discovery, if their primary relationship is so shit, if they no longer love their primary partner and have a list of their faults a mile long to trot out to the affair partner, it should be a huge relief for the cheater that their primary partner knows, and therefore no point pretending any more, they might as well take it as the opportunity to go, if they are lucky enough to get a choice about it. More choose to try to stay than to leave and it’s not always ‘just for the kids’ or ‘for financial reasons’ either. It might be in some cases, yes, but if truly unhappy that won’t last, but equally it might not. It might equally be because they know they will be happier long-term where they are and actually don’t want to lose their allegedly awful primary partner and allegedly unhappy relationship. They might be relieved that the affair is in the open and just want their lives back.
Most people don’t make themselves miserable deliberately or put themselves back in a miserable situation when there’s allegedly no longer a need to. If miserable relationships ‘drive’ people to cheat, and only unhappy people cheat, they bizarrely don’t all seem to drive people to leave, which would be more logical. Usually the opposite happens.
Discovery forces decisions on people and inserts a hell of a lot of black and white into all the grey areas suddenly. They get to finally see what they stand to lose or gain, and who they would rather live with/ without. Much more black and white now. Lose/ gain with/ without stay/ leave married/ divorced love/ indifference. The list goes on but the grey starts to diminish. The grey areas exist where people think they have the luxury of keeping options open, where they are neither one thing or another, where they have not been forced to really consider what the truth is about the affair or their primary relationship or who they really want to be with.
When push comes to shove they will do exactly what they want to do. They will make a choice. They might decide for their primary relationship or their affair partner, but choose they must.
If the cheater leaves for the affair partner, it’s not nice for the victim of their cheating to know they chose someone else. So they might lie to themselves about their relationship or certain aspects of it. If they choose instead to stay with their primary partner, it’s not nice for an affair partner to be left thinking they just got lied to and played, so they might lie to themselves about their affair partner’s reasons for staying with their spouse and how they really felt about them, too.
Affairs and the aftermath are sadly based on a shitload of lying, to ourselves and others, however anybody wants to dress it up. We are all capable of constructing a narrative around a painful experience to help us to process it and not feel so bad about it. Lying to oneself is not just the domain of the victims of cheating by any means.

@Thewookiemustgo I don't justify it, agree it was wrong. I left my marriage straight away, so did he, and then he went back shortly after one of his children threatened to kill themselves. I'd never do it again. And three years later, never was in a relationship again. Truly scarred.

The feelings come on very strong, it is like a drug induced high that you have to fight. This isn't just "oh he's hot I wouldn't mind..." it's far more. Easy to say "just say no" but it's so extreme I would have needed to leave my dream job to get away from him. They say we fall in love maybe 3 times in our lifetime. It's rare and very compelling.

Second, people don't just up and leave long marriages when they think they might be attracted to someone else. If the lines of communication are not brilliant then you're in trouble. I could never have talked to my husband about how I felt without destroying the marriage or my job anyway. Again not justifying cheating, but just offering reasons why it happens. Oh and I didn't like my husband's controlling ways, porn addiction and I hated the sex. Later I understood it was an exit affair.

Again, I think all the issues could have been solved with communication, but it was not possible with him. Communication prevents affairs!!

Personally I think people can & will present many reasons to explain their infidelity. To justify it to themselves and other's, to lessen the impact of the guilt they have to live with.
Why not just bring the relationship to an end?
Cheaters deserve to be cheated on if only to know and experience the torture & pain they've caused.
Remorse & regret after a conscious decision to pursue ones selfish needs is incomparable to the pain of being cheated on and it's lasting impacts.

I'm not a cheater but my ex is.
I think some emotionally stunted people like to chase and some people like to be chased because they are bored/feel unappreciated etc. Unless they address the issues they will carry on 100%.

I’ve never cheated, but my husband of 31 years cheated on me….twice. He never really gave an explanation as to why he cheated the first time. We just moved on, and I didn’t mention it. Found out in April he was cheating again, but had my suspicions for months before that. He kept telling me the usual, I was delusional, I was silly he was happy with me, blah blah blah, even after I found out he asked if we could work it out, now he is saying he was unhappy for a while and all that he said to me was him tying to convince himself it would be okay and we could work it out. To me it’s just lies, and I had absolutely no idea he was unhappy, everyone said it was a shock. All the plans we were making for the future, right up until I found out. I will say this, I don’t know where he got the stamina to have sex with her with her, as we were at it like rabbits!

@Lovestoned I’ve fallen in love deeply myself, I know the heady and all consuming feelings first hand. I wouldn’t dream of reducing your experience to ‘oh, he’s hot’ or anything like that, I have no idea how truly intense your feelings were. I’m sorry you went through so much, I truly am, but my point is that it doesn’t matter how you feel, infatuation, lust, true love, soulmates, whatever it is, nobody can help that. It can be all consuming and compelling, very strong, yes. Drug like and addictive, yes. But if you have made a commitment to someone else you do have to fight it. It’s fucking awful to be in that situation, absolutely, but you are still faced with a choice. Nobody and nothing forces anyone to cheat, working with him must have been hard feeling like that, but you were not incapacitated, you both chose to act on those feelings.
I understand that you are not justifying it and I’m not judging you, the part I disagree with is that you still could have chosen not to do it. Feelings don’t render us incapable of decision making and acting on our choices. I sympathise in that it must be awful to love someone like that when you are married to someone else. We can’t help how we feel. But we can help what we do about it. There is still a point where you know it’s wrong to act but you still act out of personal choice, not coercion. Your feelings are neither here nor there on this point, horrible as I’m sure it was. No, people don’t just up and leave long marriages when they are attracted to someone else, but they don’t necessarily act on it either. It’s a choice, not mandatory. I’m in a long marriage and I have met people over the years I was attracted to, I can see how it happens. But it’s still a choice. I honestly get how it happens, I also get how it doesn’t happen. You back off, remain professional at all times if it’s in the workplace and remain loyal. Easy to say and hard to do, granted.
I’m sorry everyone was so badly affected. There are no winners in affairs. I hope you manage to find some happiness somewhere. Infidelity doesn’t define people or make them a bad person going forward if they learn from it and make more honourable choices in the future. Take care.

@DillonPanthersTexas

An ex mate of mine used to pretty much hook up every time his girlfriend's back was turned. He was a team mate in my rugby side, we played semi pro in the national leagues so were literally trekking across the country at weekends for away fixtures, staying in hotels etc. I concluded he was completely amoral, there was not even a flicker of remorse or regret. Our friendship hit the rocks when he started to expect me to lie to his girlfriend on the rare occasions she got suspicious. It was just very odd, he simply had no moral compass. Knew a few women like this as well and they had an equally weird internalised way of dealing with it.

Yeah I worked with a guy like this. He was married, kids and having an affair with two different women in the office at the same time. He also spent everyday trying it on with me, but I was having none of it. I once asked him about how he could do that to his wife, he told me he never loved her, she tricked him into it, they never had sex, bla bla bla The two women were total rivals for his attention and he lapped it up. It was disturbing seeing these two women allowing themselves to be manipulated by him but blaming each other. I never saw anything like it before or since.

‘I don't know why posters who are so aghast at the ramifications of cheating keep flocking to a thread about it? Why? If it upsets you so much, what is your gain?’

You don’t know why people who have had real experience of the impact of infidelity would flock to a thread about infidelity? Ok. Strange.

‘People who are happy/love their partner do not cheat. However much the cheated-on person needs to believe otherwise, they just don't.’

Actually there is PLENTY of statistical evidence to the contrary. You could argue they don’t have a true perception of what love is BUT many do believe they love their partners.

If it was just about not being happy in their current relationship and not loving their spouse then we wouldn’t have statistical evidence for dire outcomes for relationships with the affair partner. Which actually is seen anecdotally in this thread.

If it was just about the relationship and ‘poor sausages not having their needs met’ it is strange that you are statistically three to four times more likely to cheat again in a subsequent relationship than someone who has not cheated.

And in answer to your rather strange opening question I’m here and will continue to post to question the narrative around cheating. I am not the only one in a happy, settled, loving relationship until my husband cheated. He would be more than happy to sit down and give you his reasons BUT our marriage and relationship isn’t one of them.

I will add the narrative around unhappy relationship = cheating is extremely damaging for both the betrayed and cheater if they choose to get back together. It leads to fake remorse, it leads to betrayed bending over backwards to try to control the outcome, it leads to rugsweeping and recurrent cheating. It’s not healthy for either partner.

It’s fine (huge roll of eyes) if you want to justify your exit affair, who cares, your betrayed has just been left in the dust.

Fwiw, when I said in my.comment that my exit affairs didn't last long, I meant they weren't "affairs" for long. The overlap was largely only ever weeks at most. Then they tended to become relationships.

My 20 year marriage was an affair for about a week. If you want to call it an affair - I'd been seeing the other guy fairly casually for three months, so it wasn't some epic betrayal of vows or anything. From anecdotal experience, I know a fair few exit affairs which have turned into long term relationships and others which haven't. I think the narrative of "cheaters aren't unhappy in their marriage, they are just bad people and the affair will never last anyway" is a comforting lie people tell themselves when they don't want to admit that their relationship was not a healthy one to begin with.

Cheaters love cheating, they hate getting caught. Now he will say whatever he has to , to get the result he wants. He's shown you what his priorities are. It up to you now. Also people don't change.

Pottingshed, ‘cheaters aren't unhappy in their marriage, they are just bad people’ I don’t believe cheaters are bad people. I do believe they’re driven by selfishness and entitlement during their affairs and the unhappy marriage is an excuse in cases. And I’m not referring to my own anecdotal experiences of affairs, what you’re saying is statistically untrue. One survey puts those who admitted to cheating at 30% saying the were happy or very happy. Another 40-50%, statistically affairs happen in marriages where the cheater SAYS they are happy.

The exit affair is just one type and in this thread all others are getting overlooked so you exiters can feel better about your decision making.

The fact is that the statistics for long term longevity of affair partners is DIRE. Again I’m not making this up. Read into it. You can anecdotally quote yourself and a couple of mates all you like but statistically what you’re saying is wrong. Relationships born of affairs are most likely doomed.

But I’m banging my head against an exit affair brick wall narrative here so I’m bowing out. If you can’t look at stats and question your believes then what can I do?

I cheated because of unexpressed anger. My ex refused to work and was useless around the house even though I was working full time, so I ended up doing everything and paying for everything. I cheated on him, which gave me the courage to leave him. I do not feel bad about it.

I don't think you should either @Paimuo

If he couldn't be bothered to put the effort in, I think that's valid. A lot of women cheat out of anger and frustration I think.

I wasn't a cheater but it isn't that I'm morally superior or whatever. More that I couldn't cope with the stress really.

@Ladybug123. Absolutely bang on. My H admitted to me there was nothing wrong with our marriage and he was perfectly happy with it- in his case it was all on him, all external factors — so he was happy in our relationship but not happy in other aspects of life— parent dying , business going down the pan, tax owed, — he says that he wanted something that gave him a mental distraction and ‘good feelings’ and an ego boost at a point he felt crappy- not remotely an excuse and he was actually disgusted with himself I think but he compartmentalised in his head that if it was only an emotional thing it wasn’t an affair. I think it’s important to realise this shit can happen in seemingly happy marriages, particularly if other aspects of life are going to shit.

[quote Crikeyalmighty]@Ladybug123. Absolutely bang on. My H admitted to me there was nothing wrong with our marriage and he was perfectly happy with it- in his case it was all on him, all external factors — so he was happy in our relationship but not happy in other aspects of life— parent dying , business going down the pan, tax owed, — he says that he wanted something that gave him a mental distraction and ‘good feelings’ and an ego boost at a point he felt crappy- not remotely an excuse and he was actually disgusted with himself I think but he compartmentalised in his head that if it was only an emotional thing it wasn’t an affair. I think it’s important to realise this shit can happen in seemingly happy marriages, particularly if other aspects of life are going to shit.[/quote]
Absolutely, my husband NEVER blamed our marriage. At first he was completely bewildered by what he’d done. He couldn’t explain it to himself let alone me. He said he knew he loved me and knew he was happy in the relationship but a series of events happened that knocked him sideways and he made a series of damaging choices, and got deeper in. He went to a VERY scary place. He now puts it down to a character flaw which he works daily to address. I feel safe because I know he wakes up every day looking to do better.

I REALLY don’t hate cheaters or feel morally superior. I love a cheater and stand alongside him everyday as he battles to repair the damage he did.

I know that if we start shifting the narrative, if we start really dealing with the abuse that cheating is and knock the quite frankly old fashioned narratives on the head more people would be happier in themselves, happier in their recovery and reconciliation would be seen as something doable and not shameful.

Ladybug, I was mildly curious that those who've been so hurt by cheaters would be on a thread asking cheaters for their experience of living with it. It's not going to be a support thread then but post where and what you like, I never suggested otherwise.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe. I’ve been on the other side too in my first marriage, so have both dished it out and received it which I think gives me quite a wide perspective. As a cheater in my 1st marriage it was definitely because I was unhappy with the relationship— on reflection I do think I was looking for a way out- the other person was single. It was an incredibly stupid and hurtful thing to do , regardless of the fact he was a bit of an arse to me and I actually left 2 years later to be on my own.

@Ladybug123 - I mean, sure. If you have the stats then what is the point of this post? I thought it was to ask for personal experiences and anecdata. As, indeed, is the case with most of MN. If that's stupid because you have the stats and anyone's personal experience is thus irrelevant, why do any of us post here at all?

[quote Potteringshed]@Ladybug123 - I mean, sure. If you have the stats then what is the point of this post? I thought it was to ask for personal experiences and anecdata. As, indeed, is the case with most of MN. If that's stupid because you have the stats and anyone's personal experience is thus irrelevant, why do any of us post here at all?[/quote]
This is what you wrote.

‘I think the narrative of "cheaters aren't unhappy in their marriage, they are just bad people and the affair will never last anyway" is a comforting lie people tell themselves when they don't want to admit that their relationship was not a healthy one to begin with.‘

It’s EXTREMELY contentious, not supported by research, or stats, very hurtful (why attack people in pain) and not true. You were making a sweeping generalisation based on your own experience of cheating 20 odd years ago. Most of us weren’t great while younger and dating. I can’t pretend to have been a saint BUT affairs in LONG TERM financially secure relationships, or marriages or where children are involved are a VERY different kettle of fish.

And as I’ve said I personally post because I believe that people can do better. Not because I’m a hater or bitter.

I want to speak up for betrayed who really truly thought, believed, knew their marriages were happy, that there was laughter and joy and then suddenly an affair, devastation and PTSD, because we exist! We do. Whether it makes everyone feel better to think that all these marriages were ‘unhealthy’ or not!

This narrative makes those who haven’t experienced it feel safe. If I do x,y,z they won’t cheat, it’s rubbish.

I'd describe it as not stopping something from happening as I missed the 'turn away' points.. started as a friendship which my husband was aware of abd developed feelings.
I was weak, won't deny it. But I would know now to nip any budding attraction in the bud early on as later on it was much harder to stop. I take full responsibility though. I look back and think how could I have... it was all online though, no different morally, but easier to fall into and deny what was basically an obsession with the other person.

Many years ago a member of my family had a very short lived affair (a few weeks at the very most) he was kicked out of the house and basically was massively called out on his behaviour. At the time, he was mid twenties, and spent the next 25 years trying to make amends.

His 50th birthday was particularly memorable as his wife chose to leave him, for the man she had been having an affair with for the previous 3 years.

The thing that got me most about this was the fact that he had been "punished" for 25 years for having an affair, and wasn't ever able to put it behind him, but at the same time his wife had a much more significant affair. It took them a further 5 years to divorce and even now that they have both remarried it is he who is still blamed, because "he started it" (such ridiculous behaviour).

Neither of them were blameless, but having been in very close quarters to these affairs I find it harder to forgive her because of the continued deception and the impact it had on her children and grandchildren.

As a result, to be unfaithful to any of my partners has not ever been something I would've considered. Infidelity basically fucked up half of my family.

As to your original post op, how can the cheater flip between two people?

People talk of one party in a relationship as checking out, while this is true I also think it is more than this.

I havn't had an affair and I honestly don't think I could have had the time, energy or inclination to start one.
If you are fully engaged in family life, whatever that covers, children, work, extended family just the general home life of a partnership, how is there possibly time?

No really, the cheater must have a partner that picks up the slack for what the cheater does not get involved with at home. When your mind , body and soul is engaged in family life and working as a team there is no time.

I think that's part of the reason why it is so hurtful for the betrayed, it is usually the betayed who have put everthing and everyone before themselves for the good of the family unit.
Spectacularly ungrafteful.

Could the 'used' betrayed have done the same thing over the years and allowed themselves to be adored, ego infated and put on a pedastal by someone else, hell yes, but they don't.
It is about loyalty, duty and a determination to give the family unit the best chance of posible suvival for future generations aswell.

Some people just think about themselves as a singular unit, I find this bizarre and try to stay away from such individuals now, no matter what excuses they expell.

It is this fundamental difference in how we view ourselves that can lead to one party ultimately never really being accountable for their behaviour as they only have one person to consider, themselves.

That flaw is there at the begging of a relationship, however long it endures, if one person is all about the 'self' then it is probably only a matter of time before they do something to really hurt you.

So it's not really about the flipping, it's about a selfish, self centered flaw that is not worth trying to understand, the best bet is trying to never get too close to these types.

Wish I'd not.

To add, whenever I've tried to answer my (ex)husband's reasons 'why?' It sounds awful as if I'm blaming him (you didn't respect the sacrifices I made for your career, you were a selfish lover) but in honesty, these were huge fucking resentments that drove me to the unthinkable.