Lovely husband versus different life with friend – what to do?

[KormasABitch]

Apologies for the long post, I will try not to dripfeed.

I have a lovely husband, let’s call him Pete. We’ve been together almost a decade. He’s devoted to me, endlessly kind; nothing is too much trouble. A few years ago, we moved to a country where, unfortunately, he can’t get work (I’m OK as I work online). We’re planning to move elsewhere. In the meantime, he does all the shopping and cooking, chops wood for the fire, etc. We get on brilliantly and have none of the irritations I associate even with close friendships. We have the same tastes in music, films etc and often enjoy lovely weekends away doing things together like hiking or cycling. We never get bored with each other’s company.

Pete’s quite a bit younger than me, which hasn’t worried us over the years because as far as we’re concerned, being incredibly compatible is so lucky that it outweighs everything. However, one snag is our difference in life experience. He’s used to renting a place, and I’m not sure he’ll ever be what I’d call a responsible home owner. General maintenance etc doesn’t seem to occur to him, and I don’t want to be a nag, but find the overall neglect depressing when I’m so busy. He covers the basics, but anything else is a bit like pushing water uphill.

None of this might have mattered had it not been for life throwing me a curve ball.

My oldest friend, “John” (we’ve known each other 20-odd years), got divorced a couple of years ago. I helped him through the emotional process. We’ve always been close (despite him living in another country), but I suppose that brought us a bit closer for a while. I never thought much of it when he left his wife, but over the past couple of years we have exchanged friendly (not flirtatious!) messages and sometimes I find myself pining for the kind of life I could have with him. Over the years, we’ve had some great adventures together (when married to other people, so we never acknowledged or acted on the chemistry that was there), we have a good laugh, we understand each other well, and we have the same values. Pete, for example, can’t be bothered with family and I wish he made more effort to know my parents, who won’t be around for much longer; whereas I know John would connect well.

I am approaching retirement age and financial security has become more important to me than it once was. I hate to admit it, but combining forces with someone who has worked as hard as me is also appealing.

This is all churning round and round in my head, and I feel ridiculous. I don’t want to discuss it with anyone IRL, but would appreciate any input here. I hate feeling even a smidgen of disloyalty to Pete, because I adore him. It feels as though my priorities in life might be shifting somewhat, but maybe I’m just doing that “grass greener” thing and should just STFU.

I have finally sent off that urgent piece of work, and can now luxuriate in answering questions!

I will try not to be glib but I can’t help making jokes, especially tasteless ones. I’m not trying to avoid facing anything, I think I’m just trying to cheer myself up!

Hilarious.

@SorryWoman first of all thank you so much for bothering to RTFT, that's quite a hefty read.

And I'm really amazed by the coincidences. I did actually live in Saltdean! I love that place.

I was joking about changing countries every 5 minutes. It's just that we came to this one on a bit of a whim, and in more of a hurry than we expected (our home in the UK sold overnight to a cash buyer before it even went properly on the market).

I think the appeal of coming here was (a) sunshine! but also (b) being on an equal footing. Here, we are both foreigners, whereas Peter was the foreigner in the UK. It gives you rather a different outlook. I've lived abroad a couple of times in the past, and so has he, but this is a new country for us both.

I know exactly what you're saying about him being a dosser, because there's not much evidence of him doing much else in recent years.

I like the way he deals with people. Once he got going here, despite language barriers he got a few locals to help him chop trees etc and they like and respect him enormously. They had such a laugh working together. It was the same in the UK, he'd do things like take a bottle of champagne to the lady at the Post Office for having been so helpful during the year.

I love the way his brain works. My work requires some technical expertise and close/perfectionist attention to detail, and he's the same. It was one of the things that amused us about each other when we first got together.

Like me, he’s used to being his own boss. Back in his early 20s he had his own business back in his home country, and was pretty successful. Then he moved to the UK and found semi-slavery (he says it was pretty much like the GTA clip below -- everyone who'd got to the UK was bullshitting everyone back home about how much they earned, etc). He ended up doing agency work because he liked being in different places learning new skills.*

We didn’t live together for a long time after meeting, and all that time he was cycling to work at 06:00 in all weathers and putting in long hours working at shitty jobs like loading up freezers or disposing of chemical waste. He worked hard.

It seems a stupid use of his time to send him back into some kind of slavery just for the satisfaction of insisting he contribute something now. I’d rather he was enjoying himself and/or looking after me. He tells me “One day the party will be on your street,” and I believe him.

Just to be on the safe side I’ve asked him what his ideal future looks like, and whether he would prefer an easy life or working hard to look after me. (Especially given that I will by then have a moustache and smell of wee.) Surprisingly perhaps, he continues to prefer the second option and is looking forward to taking his turn at being the provider. It’s always been his ambition to achieve a successful business venture, and he made reasonable progress with it in the UK before we pulled the plug on everything to come here. He’s very well organised and devotes himself to the task. (Not just WoW!)

Believe me (and I know you will!), I have most definitely been with dossers in the past and Pete is not one of them. They've all been characterised by immaturity generally, such as falling out with the boss and flouncing out, and Pete's nothing like that at all. He's more grown-up than me in many ways, I know that's hard to believe!!!!!! 😋

*For example he fitted the kitchen here, doing all the plumbing and wiring etc as well as the units. He did it his way of course, staying up all night drinking beer, but when I woke up in the morning he had the kettle all set up with my favourite mug next to it and tea bags and cake, and my slippers pointing at them. This is what I mean about him coming up trumps once he realises what needs doing. I just honestly think he's not used to living in anything more than a room or two. We hadn't lived long together in the UK before moving here.

Hmmm I'll probably think of more to add, but that will do for now...

@Roussette thanks for your encouragement. I think you and @SorryWoman really "get" the situation I'm experiencing.

aaaagggh forgot the GTA clip!

@SorryWoman
By the way, over the years, what has John said about Pete and your relationship?

They've only met once, briefly, a few years ago, because John also lives outside the UK. So they don't know each other, John only knows what I tell him about Pete. And John is really canny about financial planning, so he does refer to it as something of a can of worms, and says he would find it a struggle having to work so hard as I do. But he is also glad that I'm happy (little does he know!!!!! 😋)

Thanks Korma I can only speak of how my Pete has been for me. And I can tell that you are reading everyone's posts carefully. I'm sure it's a lot to mull over, and you won't be doing any knee jerk decisions based on what anyone on here says!
Sometimes these things take months/years to assimilate and either accept, or not.

@whatkindofdaughter

So far there has been no spare money to pay into any kind of private pension for myself or him, but I do pay for his health insurance etc

Good grief.

So when you stop work, how w ill you live?
Have you reached 60+ ish with no money except the state pension (if you even qualify for that, having lived overseas for some time.)

Does he contribute anything financially? Or has he ever?

I've still got a bit of time.

I did have some $$$ stashed away but the renovations here were rather costly. Anyone who's ever done up a ruin will know that you can think of a number and double it when budgeting for what needs doing.

I do have a full paid state pension.

We have no mortgage, so all my income can now be stashed away and it should only take me two or three years to set aside a reasonable amount.

No, he doesn't contribute anything financially, unless you count data mining, which paid for a weekend away recently! And yes, he has in the past. Things were starting to go quite well, and then we both got sick of shivering all the time and had a bright idea to move somewhere warmer. I wonder how that worked out.

@whatkindofdaughter

You have no private pensions - nothing from years ago waiting to be cashed in, either?
I consolidated it all into a SIPP, and then spent all that on the renovations here. But I've just started stashing some away again.

How will you be able to stop work? Will Pete have to step up and be the breadwinner?
Yes, that's the plan.

@whatkindofdaughter

And I agree with *@sorrywoman*.

Your self-worth sounds pretty low. You are accepting the bare minimum of what anyone in a relationship should have.

I hate to say it, as it sounds like a cliche, (because I'm relaxed about age-gap relationships) but this does seem more like a mother-son set-up than an equal marriage.

Do you have a history of picking men who need looking after? Has your maternal instinct been driven in that direction?

Are you always attracted to 'weaker men' who aren't demanding in some ways?

Does it make you feel better to be the dominant partner, the one responsible? Is this because of your own lack of confidence, seep down?

These are the deeper issues that need exploring so you understand what's driving your behaviour and choices.

See, I know you mean well, but this is exactly why I don't want to talk to a counsellor about this. The only way I could make proper sense of it is to talk to someone who really knows Pete, and I don't want to discuss it IRL with anyone but him.

I've had bare minimums in relationships before, believe me, and this is very different.

It's very very hard to describe him because he's unique. You'd laugh if you met him because your "mother/son" thing would go out the window straight away. Maternal instinct, eeerrrrrmmmm no! Nothing like that, I promise you. To be honest I'm not sure I've ever had a maternal instinct, although I have been a mug.

I certainly wouldn't call him weak, or me the dominant partner, either. It's very equal. Just not economically.

@whichwayisup Thanks for all your posts!

And this is why you really do need to speak to a therapist because more and more is being leaked.
Is it? I thought I've said more or less these things from the start? Although you might be right.

Words like you "let" Pete play WOW. He doesn't have a joint account with you...
By letting him play WoW, I mean I don't go in there and smash him over the head with a frying pan and tell him to get his sorry ass out into those fields with a shovel, which is perhaps what many posters would like to see me do.

Re the joint account, what's the point having another account when we both use mine? We share a mobile phone too. Duplication seems unnecessary. Also we have different surnames -- his is a bit of a mouthful so I didn't change when we got married.

When the older lady gets rid they move on to the next one.
Yes, I'm sure this happens. But I know he can't be bothered with another relationship if I die first (which I might not; anything could happen). Because relationships tend to involve a certain amount of bullshit, and at the very first whiff of that he'd be gone. He'd rather get a few animals.

You've explained how John is from a very poor background and so your lifestyle must be quite attractive to him. He gets to live well and all he has to do it's plan trips he enjoys himself and make dinner.
I know. He loves it! He's very grateful, and permanently cheerful -- as you'd expect, I suppose, but some people manage to find a way to be moody anyway don't they?

The fact that John is your oldest friend is strange too. You met him when he was a family man and you had a romantic interest in him which you thought was reciprocated.
No, this is a really long story so I haven't spelt it out before. He was a friend of my first husband. My first marriage was pretty abusive, and John was the kind person who stepped in to calm things down now and then. Because we share loads of interests, we did lots of things together and I did have a terrible crush on him for a while because he represented important things missing from my marriage, such as kindness. I never let on to him, though. My feeling that it might have been reciprocated is based entirely on that buzzing sensation you get when there's a bit of chemistry going on. But it could have all been in my head.

You glibly write off the fact you moved to a country you knew John would struggle to find work in, in a remote area where you knew there would be limited job opportunities. Why? You can't say...oh it's just me and my whimsy... With the internet and well just half a brain, you would have considered these points even if you don't want to admit it now.
I didn't glibly write it off, I've admitted a few times that I was a fucking moron, no? We just made excited plans together and did them straight away, and then came a cropper.

you would have considered these points even if you don't want to admit it now. These are things a good therapist would pull out. They wouldn't let you glibly slide over the interesting parts of the story you are telling yourself.
I'm never scared of admitting anything, though! I honestly don't think I am concealing anything from anyone, including myself. I'm not sure what you think I had in mind by coming to live here. It sounds like the Machiavellian "orchestration" another PP accused me of. Why would anyone deliberately shoot themselves in the foot...? I don't get it, sorry!

[quote Shallysally]@Roussette

OK he's not a go-getter as far as earning money, nor is my Pete, but affability, kindness and adoration counts for a helluva lot!

This ^^ 1000 times over! It really does, and should never be underestimated [/quote]
Yes... I mean, he gladdens my heart.

thanks @Shallysally 😍

@HaveringWavering

OP you’re criticising Pete for not having a “mature homeowner” type attitude to life. You on the other hand seem to have some sort of professional job, but you’ve just mentioned that you have never paid into a pension. That’s arguably less mature than someone who has always rented but never owned a home. Have you ever been employed, or always freelance? (Usually employment would have had some sort of pension attached). Did your sensible father and brothers never talk to you about this?

It’s also not clear whether the work you do is bringing in a very healthy amount, or barely keeping the wolf from the door. Do you have a professional network and reputation that gives you a sense of identity and self-worth (eg are you zooming clients all day, developing new business, managing other remote workers, or just doing mindless data entry for hours on end?)

@HaveringWavering I think I mentioned in previous posts that I have no right to accuse Pete of being immature when I am clearly much worse.

I've paid into pensions all my life, but the renovations here ate into them. On a mission now to re-stock those shelves quick!

I'm incredibly, incredibly lucky to have a job that pays pretty well. It uses my brain in ways I enjoy (although you can have too much of a good thing!), and I have minimal contact with other people -- Zoom meetings are pretty rare, thankfully. It's all done by email, which is just the way I like it. I'm really good at my work and get a lot of pride and satisfaction out of it.

See, I know you mean well, but this is exactly why I don't want to talk to a counsellor about this. The only way I could make proper sense of it is to talk to someone who really knows Pete, and I don't want to discuss it IRL with anyone but him.

Don't you think it's significant that you don't seem able to describe the ways in which Pete and you have a strong and equal relationship, and that people who are going purely on your own words are, according to you, almost all completely wrong about him?

You used the word 'slavery' twice to describe the perfectly ordinary manual jobs Pete took when he first came to the UK -- and you use weirdly infantilising language about his (possible?) return to the workforce:

It seems a stupid use of his time to send him back into some kind of slavery just for the satisfaction of insisting he contribute something now. I’d rather he was enjoying himself and/or looking after me. He tells me “One day the party will be on your street,” and I believe him.

But you wouldn't be 'sending' him anywhere, he'd be working because that how all of us feed and clothe ourselves. Your language there sounds like a mother talking about whether her teenager should keep his PT job during A-levels because she thinks he should be using his time better. If you actually think that whenever he does return to work, for instance when you move countries again, he will be returning to what you call 'slavery', why is he not studying remotely for qualifications that will enable him to get a different type of job? It's not a matter of 'slavery' or 'staying at home playing computer games'.

(And I should say here that it's the language you use to speak about Pete and not the age gap that is making people feel you infantilise him -- I have no issue with age-gaps relationships and one of the happiest long-married couples I know has almost twenty years between them. Though, saying that, the woman of the couple has just retired and as her husband has years to go in the profession they both shared, it's been a difficult dynamic.)

@whichwayisup
I forgot this bit sorry!

You don't like people because they don't "get you", but nothing in terms of your life choices re moving around and living in interesting places sounds very out of the ordinary.

It's not that I don't like people, except when verrrrrry drunk and overreacting to messages I've misread 🤣 ... just that people make me nervous, I suppose because I feel defensive. I don't think what we've done is all that unusual, it's just the way we've done it.

No, certainly not Machiavellian, I've enjoyed your thread as you are so honest actually. Being honest but being unaware of underlying motivations are two different things.

A mother and son dynamic is not about a maternal instinct.

I think you've explained John and I can understand that dynamic now and I can also understand why, given his previous saviour status, you would be fantasising about his rescuing you when you are tired and a bit fed up with things.

In the end korma, I think you'll stick with Pete and tbh you sound like you are happy with him. For what it's worth, I think you sound very normal, not at all strange and I think hiding away from people is a real shame for the rest of us.

And there isn't any perfect relationship. Everyone just finds their own way. Thanks for this thread and good luck with everything.

That's an interesting take, @PleasurePrinciple. It never crossed my mind that talking about "sending" him to work was infantilising him in any way. I was more responding to PPs who seem to think I should insist on what he does next and order him out of the door, or to study, or whatever.

You used the word 'slavery' twice to describe perfectly ordinary manual jobs
Have you ever tried doing any of these perfectly ordinary manual jobs yourself?

Re studying for qualifications, that's a long-term investment in being employed by someone else, no? When his plan is to work for himself.

@whichwayisup

No, certainly not Machiavellian, I've enjoyed your thread as you are so honest actually. Being honest but being unaware of underlying motivations are two different things.

A mother and son dynamic is not about a maternal instinct.

I think you've explained John and I can understand that dynamic now and I can also understand why, given his previous saviour status, you would be fantasising about his rescuing you when you are tired and a bit fed up with things.

In the end korma, I think you'll stick with Pete and tbh you sound like you are happy with him. For what it's worth, I think you sound very normal, not at all strange and I think hiding away from people is a real shame for the rest of us.

And there isn't any perfect relationship. Everyone just finds their own way. Thanks for this thread and good luck with everything.

Awwwwww @whichwayisup that nearly made me cry, thank you

Have a lovely weekend!

@whatkindofdaughter
As a PP said, you don't get away with funny and glib comments in therapy.
See, you've put me right off it now 🤣

[quote SorryWoman]@Shallysally

Sorry, what is kind and adoring about a man who lets his much older partner skip out on paying into a pension because he cant be bothered to work to pay for his own health insurance?[/quote]
I sort of think if I was a bloke and he was a woman, our situation wouldn't raise eyebrows quite so much...?

That's what I was telling myself, anyway, when struggling with the temptation to be rescued by John!

The grass is never greener just carrying watering your own grass and it will be as green as ever.You won't realise what you have until it's gone and when it's gone it gone !why rock the boat? how many other songs can I hint? people don't make these songs without a reason

@whatkindofdaughter

He doesn't do all the housework. I do things like laundry, cleaning the bathrooms, etc.

I wasn't moaning he can't renovate a house. I was moaning that when there were things to be done, like clearing rubbish from the basement, decorating, etc, that we could tackle, he left it to me while he played computer games

He's a man-child @Roussette.

Being 'affable' doesn't change his other selfish behaviour.

I was a bit mean mentioning those things because they were quite soon after we moved in, and he's been much better since as he's got the hang of this home ownership malarkey.

At the time, he couldn't see the rush. I suppose I was trying to get things done at a weekend, but he didn't see why it couldn't all wait till Tuesday or Wednesday ... [etc].

I have told him I wish he had more of a sense of urgency but he says I should wait and see how I feel when I have endless leisure time. He's looking forward to seeing just how much more of a lazy arse I am, given half a chance. I will lose that moral high ground!

@silverstrawberry

The grass is never greener just carrying watering your own grass and it will be as green as ever.You won't realise what you have until it's gone and when it's gone it gone !why rock the boat? how many other songs can I hint? people don't make these songs without a reason

Oh no, I've got so many ear worms now!!!!!!!! Not sure if I want to thank you for that 😁

But yes, I think I've been panicking. But my $$$ situation is salvageable, as long as I don't get my arms chopped off or something in the next couple of years.

@whatkindofdaughter

Are you 'defending' Pete because your own H is the same? *@Roussette*

At face value, how any women of 60 can live with a man of 40-something who doesn't earn, spends his days gaming (other than for doing some basic food shopping and cooking- oh, and chopping wood) I don't know.

He may be lovely in some ways, but as a life partner when you are pushing retirement, have no pension, (therefore you need to keep working) and who sits on his arse most of the day while you do most of the housework, manage the money, worry about how to support you (both) in older age - nope, doesn't inspire me at all.

In some ways they sound as dippy as each other - the impulsive move overseas where there was no work for him, living in a tumble down house- no pension plans etc - but it's not an equal relationship whichever way you look at it.

I agree, but "face value" is the thing.

See, I know, a bit of cooking, but I've finished up work for the day (unless you count catching up on 900 million messages here!) and he is rustling up a mouthwatering dish, and I feel a bit like the busy executive with an attentive, devoted wife.

Not that I get some kind of kick out of being the "boss" which might be what's making everyone think of a mother/son dynamic? just that, well, it's not such a bad arrangement, for now.

Plus it's a joke to think anyone is boss of Pete except himself. That's one of the things I love about him. For example, when involved in REAL slavery (I'm not exaggerating) when he first got to the UK, he was incredibly brave facing up to the gangmasters and getting him and his girlfriend out of there.

Oh, didn't I mention he had a girlfriend?

Just kidding

that was years ago...

@Chikapu

Has Pete ever considered working for Blizzard? If he has a second language and a good knowledge of WOW, he'd have a very good chance.

He's got a few languages up his sleeve, but doesn't have the qualifications on paper for a job like that. Thanks so much for the suggestion, though.