DP and radically different attitudes to money

[DPMoneyWorries]

NC for obvious reasons, please don't out me if you think you know me.

I will try to put this as neutrally as possible.

When DP and I met, DP had substantial debt in a debt management plan. I knew about this from early on and was told it was all under control and that, once it was paid off, it would all be ok. I accepted this and, once the relationship got more serious, I was fine with the idea that we were a unit and therefore I would end up paying much more of day-to-day expenses (rent etc).

Since then, DP had a baby. Several times over the past few years, I have discovered DP has not told me the whole truth about money. It's been a mixture of DP not finding out what the truth was and telling me something that wasn't correct, or DP actively lying. Needless to say it has been very rocky.

During this time, we have both had patches of unemployment or under-employment, the longest of which involved me working one year when I worked part-time and had baby DD part-time, and one year when I wasn't working at all and had DD nearly full time (we had her in nursery two afternoons so I qualify to get a job, which I then got).

Since the first time I found out DP had not told me the full truth, I have made the point that I have been spending my savings, including an inheritance my relative meant for a house deposit, to meet our costs. I have always paid at least half, including when I wasn't working, and in total I've paid far more than half.

Now my job has come to an end, and DP has been promoted; I am looking at another patch of possible unemployment and DP is in a position to save money. DP wants us to continue paying half the household costs each. DP's logic here is that, if a relationship is going well, you treat household money as shared, but I have been repeatedly saying I felt that DP had effectively spent 'my' money on false pretences, therefore our relationship no longer functions this way.

DP has absolutely no savings and feels very vulnerable; I am very fortunate as I still do have a small amount of savings and my parents are lending me money to buy a house (me, not DP).

DP's position is that if we each pay 50% of bills, it'll be possible to save about 400 per month, and then when there's 5k in the bank, that would be the time to consider letting me pay less than 50%. But until DP has 5k in the bank, there is no chance of letting me pay less than 50%, let alone subsidising me while unemployed.

I feel really angry and cheated here. DP insists I don't get it because I am not, and have never been, financially really vulnerable. This is true. DP also feels that, if we split up, I would be fine because of my savings and the house. DP says if we stay together, of course the 5k savings would be pooled, but until it's clear the relationship is stable, not saving that money would be too risky. I feel that it is ethically wrong.

What do you think?

Ah, cross posted on the last one.

So they aren't loaning you money? They're buying you a house in your name. They only need to be "repaid" if it needed to go on their care? Otherwise, if they live 10+ years, you keep it and don't have to repay them etc?

@Bibidy

She won't get anything at all out of helping you right now. Like @Bibidy said, it would be different if dp was actually going to benefit with a house

This is the thing OP, at the moment there is no incentive for your DP to help you. Genuinely, why would she sacrifice her first opportunity to save so that you can keep hold of yours?

I wonder if she's feeling less secure now you have a child together but yet are still maintaining very separate finances? As you said earlier, she could be concerned that if you did split she wouldn't be able to provide a home for your daughter under the current circumstances.

No, sorry, that's not the situation (it's a really long thread and I'm sorry for being unclear).

When we first got serious, I was very happy for money to be pooled. We had joint finances. I was aware she had debt and couldn't contribute as much and I didn't hold it against her.

We only separated our finances pretty recently, after it became clear that the latest round of lies meant DP would have a bad credit rating (and no hope of a mortgage) for several more years to come.

We were both pretty cross and nearly split up at this point, and the counselling helped us to work out how to split finances and make sure we were both paying 50/50.

I know she has no financial incentive to help me, but I feel that there's an ethical incentive, and (honestly) it just really hurts me that she is suddenly happy to be hard-nosed about finances at exactly the moment where it's in her financial interests to be so.

That is why I never thought she should be ashamed for getting into debt before she met me, and why I was happy to treat all of our money as shared money. And that is why I didn't simply call it a day the first time I found out she'd been less than truthful. That's why I gave her another chance, and then another, and then another.

At what point will I have shown enough good faith? Because I am awfully worried that will happen just at the point when I no longer have anything more financially to give.

Obviously only you and your DP know your specific circumstances and what she has done to break your trust, and whether it's something that can be moved on from.

I think given her dishonesty about money that you are well within your rights to keep your finances separate. But then that also means she will need to do the same.

I am not sure how sustainable it is to have some things totally separate and then some things shared when you don't both agree on that approach. I can completely understand you keeping your savings separate, but can't then understand the logic of thinking she's unfair not to support you while you're out of work?

I know she has no financial incentive to help me, but I feel that there's an ethical incentive, and (honestly) it just really hurts me that she is suddenly happy to be hard-nosed about finances at exactly the moment where it's in her financial interests to be so.

Yes I completely understand where you're coming from there. I would feel the same given how much you've done previously.

I guess though - unfortunately!! - this issue is the first to have arisen following the counselling where you made the agreement to keep it strictly 50/50.

Tbh given what you've said re counselling, in your shoes I wouldn't want to muddy the waters again as if she does help you out here (assuming you did need it and don't find another contract asap, which hopefully you will :)) you can bet she will be expecting something in return again.

Right, I hope I answered all the questions - sorry if I didn't. Thank you very much for replies everyone, I do appreciate it.

Well if they’re outright lies, start working to the separation now, because her living in your house will make this worse.

@RickiTarr

That is why I never thought she should be ashamed for getting into debt before she met me, and why I was happy to treat all of our money as shared money. And that is why I didn't simply call it a day the first time I found out she'd been less than truthful. That's why I gave her another chance, and then another, and then another.

It really does sound massively complicated.

So is it that she isn’t good with money and then panics and tries to cover her mistakes? Or do you think it is something more reckless? Or even more calculated?

When you say you were going to buy a house jointly last year but she was dishonest and her credit was poor and she couldn’t qualify, but hat was the lie she told?

On top of the nature of the dishonesty the other big question is do you live her and want to be with her? If you do, i would get into counselling quickly so at least later if it fails you know you tried everything.

It is complicated.

As I say, we live together, have done for a few years as we have a DD together.

The dishonesty is a mixture really. I've covered a few examples in the thread. Specifically with the credit rating, the issue was that her debt plan seemed to end early - they put a block on payments before she'd expected it to be due to finish. I was worried and suggested she get confirmation in writing it was all clear, and she said she'd done that. Then she got phone messages chasing a debt, and she thought they were spam so ignored them, and then it turned out they were real. She thought I'd be angry and I said no, of course I wasn't, it was clearly a mix up as she'd written confirmation the debt was clear. I gave her loads of emotional support and told her we'd sort it together and make sure they understood it was their mistake.

We were applying for a mortgage in principle during this and I explained to the broker there was this issue but it was a mistake. We even put in an offer on a house. Then the broker asked me to get detailed credit reports for both of us, and hers looked funny. But she reassured me it was a mistake.

Eventually she went looking for the paperwork providing she'd had confirmation that the debt company had made the mistake, and had wrongly told her the debt was clear. She said she must have lost it. Eventually she came clean and admitted she'd never bothered to get it.

So she'd lied all along about it. By this point I was too near the end of my contract to qualify for a mortgage on my own.

@LeafBeetle

So he thinks that it's OK for you to pay more than half if he's struggling, but not OK for him to pay more than half if you're struggling?

He sounds like an absolute twat OP. You supported him when things were tough, and he has lied to you and betrayed you.

He is a SHE.

@Bibidy, you're making a lot of sense and your replies are really helpful, thank you!

(I am trying not to add to the massive amount of quote-post in this thread!)

@selflove

Couldn't you come up with a compromise? You use your savings until you have spent £5K or until she has saved £5K, whatever comes first. Then you stop using your savings? It still leaves you with 15K savings while she has none and pays for everything for you, but at least it's closer to the middle of what you both want.

That's a really good idea about until I've spent 5k! I would be happy with that. I just don't want to feel as if it'd be unending.

If my parents died and never wanted the loan back, it'd go into the value of their estate and be split between me and my brothers. It might well be I'd get it straight back, effectively. I do know I'm really, really lucky.

[quote DPMoneyWorries]@Bibidy, you're making a lot of sense and your replies are really helpful, thank you!

(I am trying not to add to the massive amount of quote-post in this thread!)[/quote]
No problem :)

One other thing to consider is that you may also struggle to get a mortgage yourself if you are contracting, particularly if you end up having a period out of work. I think mortgage providers are quite strict on self-employment/contracting and you have to show quite robust financials before being approved, which I guess you wouldn't have if you did end up without a contract when this one finished?

If that's the case then it may be that you both have a couple of years to wait until you are in a position to get a mortgage, so you might be able to do so then? (with legal protections in place for you if you bring the greater amount of money to it).

I would definitely ring-fence the money from your parents or, as someone else suggested, potentially pass it back to them until you are ready to use it, as it does sound like your DP thinks that money is fair game for you to use. When actually it has been given to you for a specific purpose by your parents and it would be unfair of you to use it in another way.

Being in debt and handling it well and making changes is fine.

Continuing to choose to make bad financial decisions and telling lies is completely different and personally to me not acceptable. For me that would be more than enough to end the relationship.

Has she been to a financial adviser at all?

I don't think talking about what might happen when both your parents die is helpful. There are too many variables. You don't know how much money they have, how much they might earn, if they will ask you to repay the loan or when they will die. If one or both of them ends up needing to pay for residential care there might not be any estate to inherit.

If you have only decided recently to split finances 50/50, it seems to me you need to stick with that decision, plan accordingly and see how it goes. Maybe talk about re-evaluating the agreement after a period of time, e.g. 6 months or 1 year.

I also think giving the loan money back to your parents until you are ready to use it is a good idea.

@MrsSquirrel

I don't think talking about what might happen when both your parents die is helpful. There are too many variables. You don't know how much money they have, how much they might earn, if they will ask you to repay the loan or when they will die. If one or both of them ends up needing to pay for residential care there might not be any estate to inherit.

If you have only decided recently to split finances 50/50, it seems to me you need to stick with that decision, plan accordingly and see how it goes. Maybe talk about re-evaluating the agreement after a period of time, e.g. 6 months or 1 year.

I was just trying to reply to questions about it.

@MrsSquirrel

I also think giving the loan money back to your parents until you are ready to use it is a good idea.

No, sorry, I already said upthread - I can see why people would think that's a good idea, but for various reasons, it would be very difficult now (my parents are very much the ones behind the house purchase).

@Bibidy - YY, I know it might be hard to get a mortgage. I'd never considered it until recently and only thought about whether I could on my own because the broker brought it up. He said he'd be confident I could get one if I had a year left on my contract, but by that point I didn't. I would really hope I'd get another contract or a permanent job soon, obviously.

@SimonJT - no, she won't go to a financial advisor.

What is her excuse for not going to a financial advisor?

Did the counselling bring up that she should take online classes to educate herself about budgeting and spending habits? Failing that, YouTube tutorials, there are so many. There needs to be some effort and willingness to change shown.

When I tried this with my former partner, encouragement to change, it made her defensive, resentful, and passive aggressive - it was the final nail in the coffin for us.

An awfully stressful time for me that made me nearly ill. She liked her habits the way they were and did not want to change, despite promising and paying lip service to this initially. I wish she’d stated her true intentions clearly from the beginning, I felt misled and manipulated... but I learned a lot of good lessons!

These sorts of things can behave in very similar ways to addictions - difficult and maybe impossible to root out.

You have a bit of time before your role ends OP, I'd put your time into finding something new then you won't have to worry about any of this so much and can each save your own money. I can understand why she's concerned about having no savings but I can also understand why you feel it's your turn to be supported for a while. I'd be very concerned about her attitude to money though and be very surprised if she saves even half of what she plans to every month, I think she's more of a spender than a saver.

I think your DP would be really foolish to live with you in a home you own and it would leave her really vulnerable. What happens if you split in 5 years? She will have paid a low rent to you while you are building an assett. If you have had counselling recently it doesn't sound like your relationship is secure enough for her to take that risk.

There have been a few women on here posting about being in exactly that position. I have no idea what you would do with your DD if you split in terms of living arrangements and finances but the women who have custody in these circumstances really struggle to keep their heads above water.

I also understand your hurt and need to protect yourself both financially and emotionally.

Why are you surprised? Your DP has lied continuously and you have continuously swallowed her bullshit. This who she is. The future version of her, where she isn’t self serving and duplicitous isn’t waiting for you around the corner. You clearly have different attitudes to money and she would bleed you dry before she would ever save any of ‘her’ money.

This is just more of her future faking, ducking and diving bullshit. Isn’t it time you got wise to it?

Hi OP. This sounds like a difficult situation and I'm sorry.

When you have a child together it is usually advisable to be married and to share finances, but if you don't do this, I think it's important to keep everything 50-50 and for both partners to do paid work - where possible, but obviously this doesn't account for unemployment, or wanting to take time off or go part time to do childcare, etc. It is necessary for the earning partner to support the non (or lower) earning partner and I can understand that inequality and resentment could build if one partner is not contributing fairly or is hiding/lying about money.

It's all a bit of a mess isn't it... because not only do you seem to have different attitudes/approaches to money, which is in itself a source of tension, you also have different starting points (her debts and your savings) and to cap it all she has not been honest about it.

For me I think the trust would be gone I'm afraid and I would want to either end the relationship or have strictly separate finances and everything completely 50-50... which I realise might seem unfair to you if you've already supported her financially and feel that she "owes" you some financial support in return. Realistically though I think that's the sunk costs fallacy. And going forward, I don't think she is going to contribute as much as you will. Unless she makes radical changes to her attitude and money management, she will continue to be a stressful person to be linked to financially.

Have you had other relationship issues in addition to the money/financial side?

So basically, having sucked you dry to get herself out of debt, having lied over and over and over preventing you from making decent financial decisions and forcing you to pay more and more of the bills, she is now deciding that - now there is a chance that she will be the better off one - now she wants to keep everything 50:50.

I’d have left her the first time she lied to you.

I don't really get how the house situation will be working. First you seemed to say your parents were giving you money for a deposit, now it seems to be for the entire house. It seemed originally this would be a gift but now it's being described as a loan? How does that all actually work in practice legally?

Normally if you are being gifted cash in such circumstances forms have to be signed to be very clear that it is actually a gift, and is not a loan, does not need to be returned at any point. If it's to buy the whole house then who actually own the house - you or your parents? Will they actually be setting up some legal documentation that they are loaning you the money with terms for repayment? Will your partner as the birth mother to your child together not have some kind of claim on it?

It all sounds a bit of a mess. I can understand your partner's view that, you are in an apparently far superior position financially, and that your present stance will prevent her from starting savings on her own when she has none, and you apparently have quite a bit. If you want to be in a position of equals on this get a job quickly and continue contributing the 50% or dip into your savings and contribute the 50% each month, because insisting she pay more whilst you are out of work and when she has no savings is leaving her in a very vulnerable position. Is that what you want for her? It sounds like you'll be ok whatever happens in the future, and she might not be - surely you would want her to have a safety net for herself? Yeah, you maybe contributed more when the tables were turned but you were in an easy position to do so; she's not starting from the same place as you.

That said, when there is mistrust in a relationship and you both seem to be working in anticipation of a split it is hardly surprising you are both looking out for your own interests.

Thanks all.

@TheSecondAct - no, counselling didn't suggest free financial advice, oddly. I think DP feels she doesn't need financial counselling (ie., the paid sort) because she feels she knows what she needs to do and just needs to do it. I do have some sympathy there. I wouldn't especially care if she were shit with money and straightforward about it/ considered how it might feel to me.

@Tal45 - I am applying for jobs, absolutely!

@AnotherEmma - I have a really complicated relationship to the standard 'you have kids so should be married'. But I know where it comes from. I think the trust issue is the big one - it is part of other issues where I feel she just doesn't think about other people enough. It's come up with us a lot before.

@suggestionsplease1 - sorry, it is a confusing thread, I know. I didn't think I'd ever said the money from my parents would be a gift, but maybe I'm mistaken, and if I did, sorry, that's not the case. My parents always intended to loan me a sum of money for a deposit. When it suddenly became clear, mid-house-hunt, that DP and I couldn't get a mortgage together, they offered to loan me money to purchase a house. This is legally secured against the value of the house, so if it's sold, the money goes back to them; if they need the money, they can call in the loan and it goes back to them; if they die, the loan is factored into the estate.

The house will be in my name; DP won't have claims on in beyond what law gives because (as you say) we're both parents of the same child.

I don't want DP to feel vulnerable, but equally, I feel as if I've been making sure she doesn't feel vulnerable for the entirety of our relationship; I don't want to feel as if that should continue right up to the point when I don't have any savings left (especially if that coincided with the loan being called in).