DP and radically different attitudes to money

[DPMoneyWorries]

NC for obvious reasons, please don't out me if you think you know me.

I will try to put this as neutrally as possible.

When DP and I met, DP had substantial debt in a debt management plan. I knew about this from early on and was told it was all under control and that, once it was paid off, it would all be ok. I accepted this and, once the relationship got more serious, I was fine with the idea that we were a unit and therefore I would end up paying much more of day-to-day expenses (rent etc).

Since then, DP had a baby. Several times over the past few years, I have discovered DP has not told me the whole truth about money. It's been a mixture of DP not finding out what the truth was and telling me something that wasn't correct, or DP actively lying. Needless to say it has been very rocky.

During this time, we have both had patches of unemployment or under-employment, the longest of which involved me working one year when I worked part-time and had baby DD part-time, and one year when I wasn't working at all and had DD nearly full time (we had her in nursery two afternoons so I qualify to get a job, which I then got).

Since the first time I found out DP had not told me the full truth, I have made the point that I have been spending my savings, including an inheritance my relative meant for a house deposit, to meet our costs. I have always paid at least half, including when I wasn't working, and in total I've paid far more than half.

Now my job has come to an end, and DP has been promoted; I am looking at another patch of possible unemployment and DP is in a position to save money. DP wants us to continue paying half the household costs each. DP's logic here is that, if a relationship is going well, you treat household money as shared, but I have been repeatedly saying I felt that DP had effectively spent 'my' money on false pretences, therefore our relationship no longer functions this way.

DP has absolutely no savings and feels very vulnerable; I am very fortunate as I still do have a small amount of savings and my parents are lending me money to buy a house (me, not DP).

DP's position is that if we each pay 50% of bills, it'll be possible to save about 400 per month, and then when there's 5k in the bank, that would be the time to consider letting me pay less than 50%. But until DP has 5k in the bank, there is no chance of letting me pay less than 50%, let alone subsidising me while unemployed.

I feel really angry and cheated here. DP insists I don't get it because I am not, and have never been, financially really vulnerable. This is true. DP also feels that, if we split up, I would be fine because of my savings and the house. DP says if we stay together, of course the 5k savings would be pooled, but until it's clear the relationship is stable, not saving that money would be too risky. I feel that it is ethically wrong.

What do you think?

[quote DPMoneyWorries]@bibidy - I am currently in work; my contract ends soon and I'm worrying about it taking me a few weeks/months to get something new.

A year or so ago, DP and I planned to buy a house together, using my savings plus a loan from my parents as deposit; we'd have owned that jointly (probably something like a 70/30 split). It then became clear that DP hadn't been honest about money. We couldn't get a mortgage.

If I run down my savings endlessly, no, I won't have a deposit, will I?[/quote]
No you won't have a deposit but that's not your dps problem? She won't get anything at all out of helping you right now. Like @Bibidy said, it would be different if dp was actually going to benefit with a house

Oh so you already have the deposit money from your parents and that’s part of your £20k+ savings? It’s not additional?

It does feel a bit like your DP has a chip in her shoulder/blind spot that your family are loaning you money.

It also feels like she hasn't taken ownership of her poor financial past, her lies around money nor has she saved has much as she could because she's not prepared to go without luxuries.

It also feels like there's a history of it being a one way street.

If you've already been through relationship counselling then baby you really are too different. Is there really no compromise?

She won't get anything at all out of helping you right now. Like @Bibidy said, it would be different if dp was actually going to benefit with a house

This is the thing OP, at the moment there is no incentive for your DP to help you. Genuinely, why would she sacrifice her first opportunity to save so that you can keep hold of yours?

I wonder if she's feeling less secure now you have a child together but yet are still maintaining very separate finances? As you said earlier, she could be concerned that if you did split she wouldn't be able to provide a home for your daughter under the current circumstances.

It also feels like she hasn't taken ownership of her poor financial past, her lies around money nor has she saved has much as she could because she's not prepared to go without luxuries.

It also feels like there's a history of it being a one way street.

Do we know that?

It could be read that way, or that the DO has a secret gambling habit or worse or it could be that she just has had bad luck, a bad start, or poor money skills.

OP keeps using the emotive word “dishonest” which could be fair enough, or it could be that the DP is embarrassed about continuing ramifications of the old debt and so isn’t keen to completely share the details as it results in OP and her parents sitting around saying how crap she is.

It would help if OP could say how the debt accrued.

Yes if it is pure fecklessness that’s one thing, if it’s more complicated it’s another, but either way it’s the mother of OP’s baby, so the time to be completely dispassionately has probably passed.

This is the thing OP, at the moment there is no incentive for your DP to help you. Genuinely, why would she sacrifice her first opportunity to save so that you can keep hold of yours

Surely you could argue that there's been incentive for the op to help their dp either. And the previous dishonesty about money is a disincentive.

@RickiTarr I was struggling to find the right words hence saying "feels" maybe it should be "what op has written implies".

It all feels very precarious which isn't good for any of them.

[quote DPMoneyWorries]@bibidy - I am currently in work; my contract ends soon and I'm worrying about it taking me a few weeks/months to get something new.

A year or so ago, DP and I planned to buy a house together, using my savings plus a loan from my parents as deposit; we'd have owned that jointly (probably something like a 70/30 split). It then became clear that DP hadn't been honest about money. We couldn't get a mortgage.

If I run down my savings endlessly, no, I won't have a deposit, will I?[/quote]
You did realise that her credit file would take time to recover after paying off the debt? Did she?

What was the thing she “hand to be honest about”, money wise?

I had one like this. Very happy for me to support him when he was between jobs and would blatantly expect money for himself for the weekend (pubs, gambling). But when I expected him to support me for 6 months after the birth of DS that was unreasonable. I would leave whilst you can or you will have nothing left.

[quote RandomMess]@RickiTarr I was struggling to find the right words hence saying "feels" maybe it should be "what op has written implies".

It all feels very precarious which isn't good for any of them.[/quote]
Yes. I agree about the one way street. They’re supposedly a family now, though.

I was actually pondering your first para about what we actually know about the nature and cause of the partner’s financial difficulties.

[quote DPMoneyWorries]@bibidy - I am currently in work; my contract ends soon and I'm worrying about it taking me a few weeks/months to get something new.

A year or so ago, DP and I planned to buy a house together, using my savings plus a loan from my parents as deposit; we'd have owned that jointly (probably something like a 70/30 split). It then became clear that DP hadn't been honest about money. We couldn't get a mortgage.

If I run down my savings endlessly, no, I won't have a deposit, will I?[/quote]
You have been very generous and were willing to continue to be so... She’s not very smart is she? She’s ruined her own chance at a really good secure life with you building the trust between you, a life she would have been unlikely to achieve without you.

This situation is financially risky for you, and she is someone with a track record of having no regard for risk and loss. It seems she has a taste for gain now.

I know you said she worries about it, but that’s completely different to taking decisive lasting action, for example not lying. That is something that needs a bit of time to prove so you can feel secure also.

I feel really sorry for her, but that’s no excuse that she should be allowed to ruin the lives of others.

From you original post, it sounded to me like she was the driving force behind having children... were you as fully on board or needed persuasion? If you are a legal parent, then she knows she will always have your contribution as long as those children are minors. She’s bad with money, but she’s not entirely stupid, this is hardly an accidental pregnancy is it? It doesn’t sound like she thought you were short of a few pence.

I know you love her and I don’t want to speak ill of someone I don’t know... I’m just giving you a few different angles to think about, which may be entirely wrong, if so, sorry. I have been with a woman who was a look out for number one financially sort, and it was astonishing to realise just how cold and calculating she was in comparison to may own thinking. This mindset took me time to discover. I wish I’d had this lovely group of women to talk to back then, they’re really great, and no homophobia here at all.

You have been very generous and were willing to continue to be so... She’s not very smart is she? She’s ruined her own chance at a really good secure life with you building the trust between you, a life she would have been unlikely to achieve without you.

Has everyone fully understood that the DP has had OP’s baby?

I get this slightly unpleasant feeling that some posters are suffering from a degree of homophobia here.

This isn’t a random grifter or a surrogate or something. OP can’t just throw her away. They’re legally co-parents. They have to find a way to rub along together either as a couple or as co-parents for a very long time now.

@KylieKoKo

This is the thing OP, at the moment there is no incentive for your DP to help you. Genuinely, why would she sacrifice her first opportunity to save so that you can keep hold of yours

Surely you could argue that there's been incentive for the op to help their dp either. And the previous dishonesty about money is a disincentive.

I agree!! But I think if you're separate then you're separate. Now there is no debt, DP starts her own pot of savings and OP has to use some of hers to cover her period of unemployment.

In these circumstances, and with a child now, I would not sacrifice my potential to save something as a security blanket in order to help my DP preserve his pot, which will then be used to purchase a house I specifically will not be involved in. Not saying this is OP's fault at all, as her DP's history has made this the case.

But it does mean DP will be more vulnerable should they split, and I can see why she wants to try and put something aside for herself (& child) rather than using anything she has spare to support OP while she finds another contract when she does have money in the bank she could dip into instead.

I know they have a baby, and I believe the OP has said she is a legally recognised parent, this why I threw in the mention of her having to think about contribution even in the event of a split. She can’t just walk away and change her mind and forget about it.

I am myself a woman and have had relationships with women, and have been on both sides of the have and have nots, to a lesser degree than this couple perhaps, admittedly.

The biological mother needs support, but the OP I assume is a young lady herself and needs support to, if more of the emotional kind more than anything else. There are a lot of predators out there sadly, men and women.

So DP wants you to subsidise their savings? Fuck that

@RickiTarr, agreed that the causes of the debt make all the difference.

However, “forgetting” to pay for your child’s nursery and continuing to buy for yourself after the original big debt has been cleared and you are working is a little unusual. Certainly there might be a perfectly reasonable set of circumstances that caused that, but unfortunately the other partner isn’t here to defend herself and we have limited information and that’s all we can work with. If she had posted her own separate thread, revealing other things, I’m sure she would get a lot of sympathy and much needed useful advice.

If I run down my savings endlessly, no, I won't have a deposit, will I?

But equally if she forfeits her chance to save so that you don’t have to use your savings, she will never have money for a deposit either. I do understand where you’re coming from OP, I really do, but I don’t think either of you are wrong as such, you’re both looking after yourselves rather than working together.

@RickiTarr

I can see this immensely complicated but, I think, on balance, this is why MN tells women no marry before they have babies.

Everybody is lining up to treat this woman like a feckless fool, including your parents, which can’t feel great, and won’t encourage her to share any difficulties she is having with you. Maybe you could show her the tricks of better financial management but I’m not surprised that she is till hiding things from you. Neither am I surprised that she feels she needs a nest egg to give her some security.

Do you know that she is truly bad with money or is just that she has never had enough of it? Where are her parents? Were they supportive in getting her launched in life?

Either way, talking down to her is not the way forward. She will only feel patronised or belittled.

The basic problem is that you considered her good enough to have a baby for you but not good enough to marry or share assets with, which is making her feel anxious and probably hormonal.

I can’t really understand why you did that, but having done it, I think you need to show her more respect. Just a bit. It might pay dividends. Why not go along with the plan for her to save £5k as the next financial priority? It shows good faith. You already have savings and strong parental support, so you can afford to make the gesture (both senses). It might well be that finally having rainy day savings and your support makes all the difference?

I hope I didn't and don't talk down to her.

We didn't get married, initially, because it's not possible in our Church; we both felt we'd like to wait and see if that would change. Now I feel no, I don't want to marry someone who hasn't been honest with me about money.

I do take your point that a lot of her issues around money must be to do with having not had enough.

That is why I never thought she should be ashamed for getting into debt before she met me, and why I was happy to treat all of our money as shared money. And that is why I didn't simply call it a day the first time I found out she'd been less than truthful. That's why I gave her another chance, and then another, and then another.

At what point will I have shown enough good faith? Because I am awfully worried that will happen just at the point when I no longer have anything more financially to give.

@Naunet

If I run down my savings endlessly, no, I won't have a deposit, will I?

But equally if she forfeits her chance to save so that you don’t have to use your savings, she will never have money for a deposit either. I do understand where you’re coming from OP, I really do, but I don’t think either of you are wrong as such, you’re both looking after yourselves rather than working together.

Yes it’s rather split into two teams by the sounds of things.

@TheSecondAct I just hope OP isn’t being unduly influenced to give up on something fixable by her parents. Money management issues can sometimes be fixed. It doesn’t seem a good enough reason to throw away a relationship with a small child in it.

@Naunet

If I run down my savings endlessly, no, I won't have a deposit, will I?

But equally if she forfeits her chance to save so that you don’t have to use your savings, she will never have money for a deposit either. I do understand where you’re coming from OP, I really do, but I don’t think either of you are wrong as such, you’re both looking after yourselves rather than working together.

This is where the same sex confusion in roles may be coming from. I’ve run into this and it needs a lot of discussion since there are no defined roles at all! Some people settle into this naturally, it’s much easier like that. I would tend to back out at the first sign of a mismatch like that nowadays. OP doesn’t have that luxury, not as far as the parenting goes, but that’s it’s own reward and children are a wonderful thing.

@RickiTarr

What do you know - broadly - about why she was in debt? I think that makes a difference.

It absolutely does. She told me her partner was very bad with money and left her in a really difficult situation, and she herself found it really hard to budget and it just got out of control. I realised more recently that she had been assuming she paid much more towards things with her partner than she did (we discussed it during counselling and it became clear she thought she was affording 50% of a rather luxurious lifestyle, when she can't have been).

On the whole I think she really, genuinely struggles with money. But again - that is why I have given her a lot of chances to be honest and/or to show she's not just taking me for a ride.

That is why I never thought she should be ashamed for getting into debt before she met me, and why I was happy to treat all of our money as shared money. And that is why I didn't simply call it a day the first time I found out she'd been less than truthful. That's why I gave her another chance, and then another, and then another.

It really does sound massively complicated.

So is it that she isn’t good with money and then panics and tries to cover her mistakes? Or do you think it is something more reckless? Or even more calculated?

When you say you were going to buy a house jointly last year but she was dishonest and her credit was poor and she couldn’t qualify, but hat was the lie she told?

On top of the nature of the dishonesty the other big question is do you live her and want to be with her? If you do, i would get into counselling quickly so at least later if it fails you know you tried everything.

No you won't have a deposit but that's not your dps problem? She won't get anything at all out of helping you right now. Like @Bibidy said, it would be different if dp was actually going to benefit with a house.

I'm not suggesting it is her problem, only correcting the misunderstanding that I'd keep my savings the same if we did DP's plan.

@RickiTarr

Oh so you already have the deposit money from your parents and that’s part of your £20k+ savings? It’s not additional?

There's no deposit. Initially, when DP and I planned to buy a house together, my parents said they would lend us money for a deposit. Instead they lent me money for a house. This is obviously enormously kind of them - but it is also money that, if anything happened, I would need to pay back. I hope to goodness nothing does happen to my parents, but if I had to sell the house to pay for care, I would have to sell the house.

Couldn't you come up with a compromise? You use your savings until you have spent £5K or until she has saved £5K, whatever comes first. Then you stop using your savings? It still leaves you with 15K savings while she has none and pays for everything for you, but at least it's closer to the middle of what you both want.