Help! Can things be repaired or am I destined to be in a loveless marriage??

[Eric7]

Hi all,

First time posting on one of these forums. Would really welcome some help. Been with my wife for over 20 years (Married for 11). She was my best friend. Things got tougher initially when we had 2 kids. However they are 5 and 7 now and we operate well as a family. Issue is my wife 12 months ago asked me to sleep in the spare room. Prior to that we argued from time to time about various things (work life balance, where we live, libidos (mine higher)). She says all the arguments caused her anxiety.

Since I moved into the spare room there has been no intimacy. My wife is also more detached from me. We still speak and sort of get on. We give each other a kiss in the morning and before bed time, but it is not the same. We have been going to counselling for the past 6 months. She provided a list of things she wanted me to change about things I do, which I think I have made great efforts to address (she agrees to). However there is little change in her stance. She says is affected by what happened previously and also she has lost the emotional connection to me / us and wants to try and find it again. But she doesn’t make much effort in trying to re establish it. It is always me offering her a hug, holding her hand, trying to make conversation. She spends most of her time looking at her phone when we are together.
The last 12 months have been awful. I work in a pretty stressful albeit well paid job and am the sole breadwinner in the house. Our kids are great and I could see us being a happy family and giving them a good life.
The issue however is my wife’s stance with me has taken a massive toll. I feel anxious now when I am around her. I feel constantly low and almost on the brink of tears sometimes. I have to maintain a façade when anyone asks about us, how we are.
With the lack of change I think I have a decision to make. I no longer have hope that we can work things out. I have done all I can to be a better person, but she has just remained withdrawn.
I can leave, but then I will have to move away back to my home town (200 miles away). All the close friends here are our neighbours, so I will lose them if I move out. I still have friends back in my home town, and whilst I doubt they are going to be as good as a rock as say family would be (PS Both my parents passed away so no longer have that support network), they will help. But I suspect I will have to deal with the pain on my own. And the pain of not seeing my kids grow up is horrible.
The other option is to stay, but accept that this is my life for the next 20 years in that I live in a pretty much loveless marriage. I at least get to be a dad to my children, but I fear I will change and become a more bitter person the longer this goes on.
Any thoughts advice appreciated. I would also like to know if anyone has stuck at such a situation and whether they are glad they did. Am in wrong and can things actually be repaired with my wife??? Or whether it was a mistake with hindsight?

Just to be clear I still care massively about my wife, and I think I still love her. I am still very attracted to her and just wish she would be the person I married (or as close to), as I really believe we could be a great family. But maybe my wishes are a bit delusional???

I am in my early forties, so perhaps there is a slim chance I could rebuild my life now. But I am scarred that I could be in the same position after a few more years.
I just want to be with someone who makes me happy, and who I can make happy as well. I don’t think that is unreasonable!!!
Thanks

@Lili132 They are school age now, yes; I was describing how it comes about in the first place that the woman ends up not working or only working part-time. What happens next is that because the woman is, for practical reasons, in a less prestigious job, while the man has been able to work constantly on his career, he is seen as the naturally more successful of the two, and she loses confidence. Depends on the individuals, obviously, but I know a couple of women who never really got their chutzpa back.

@Nancydrawn

Thank you for your words.

But I’ve only gone through what some of the women on here have gone through, and many on here have gone through far worse.

I’ve never suffered physical abuse, financial abuse, been abandoned, forced to have sex against my will or by coercion.

Perhaps the most important word in my post was ‘ most ‘

There are nutters and psychos in both camps.

But in the main, mumsnet is a pretty accurate lens on society.

There are some lovely guys out there who are wonderful partners and fathers.

I’m sure there are some lying, selfish cheating women out there, I divorced one.

My statement was ‘ As rule of thumb, I think women are nicer human beings than men ‘.

It’s my opinion, and it’s just one opinion.

If you look at most cultures and societies around the world, they are dominated by men who genuinely believe they are superior to woman.

It’s been said a ‘ hidden part ‘ of a man’s brain / mind, deep in his primeval genes, is ‘ war - like ‘

ALL the wars, atrocities, torture, killing and mayhem in the world are committed or directed by men. I do wonder how these ‘ men ‘ treat their wives.

With regard to the Op, I’m really glad he’s reviewing his options. If he can’t work it out with his wife, I hope he stays, close to his kids, puts them first and foremost and becomes an even better Dad. He will never, ever regret it. His kids will be his support network, and he should be theirs.

But equally, I hope he helps and supports his wife through any separation with no rancour, just understanding and hopefully, friendship.

Nancy you and I will just have to amicably agree to disagree.

@Fabiofatshaft1 - I just wanted to say, it’s nice to see that after all the hurt you’ve been through with your ex-wife, you still speak so positively of women.

@Eric7 - I think you need to sit down with your wife and have a serious chat, your marriage at present, is not sustainable, separate rooms, no sex/intimacy are just symptoms of your unhappy marriage. No one should be living this sort of life and it’s also not a good model for your children.
If I am being honest, it sounds like your wife has checked out of the marriage but enjoys the life style which you are able to provide. It’s no wonder you are depressed because this is not how a happy marriage should be.
If things don’t change (maybe even consider marriage counselling) then separating is in the best interests of you both as parents and individuals.

Good luck!

Op you have been together 20 years, a long time and only you know what has led your wife to feel so resentful now that she feels unable to trust you with her heart.

Women who have been in a relationship very rarely lose that intimate connection over nothing ,as for most women losing a sexual connection will have the fear that their partner may stray if they don't connect in some sexual way, it is a fact. It has to be some pretty big hurt to shut things down.

I feel your defensiveness towards posters and then your rebuff of stating facts of suicide were not necessary, I could also state there was a probability of an abandonned wife with the financial, emotional and physical burden of raising children on her own entirely, could make way to serious mental health problems that cannot be overcome.

You are coming across as selfish, you wish to start a life with the support of friends that were in your life over 20 years ago, why? I'm sorry but this does not ring true, people do not abandon their lives, family and children unless there is the promise of a more exiting chapter in their future, not because they have old school friends, that can help with their mental health.

You are asking if it is forgivable to leave behind a life you have had for over 20 years and created children in, and my answer is no it is not forgivable.

Leave your wife if you cannot repair the marriage, but no, if you move you will lose any respect.
Think of this as a market survey, 'will I lose my reputation as a good man/parent' mumsnet has said yes you will and I think in RL it will be far worse.

Stay arround till the kids are older, you have a duty of care to watch over your children till they are strong enough to go it alone in life.

Ok op - I’m just here to tell you it can be repaired. I was in your wife’s position, almost exactly, and got very disheartened and literally felt like I was falling out of love with my DH. He pretty much abandoned me and left me to bring up the kids while he worked. I can, to a degree, see why he left me to it, but it was awful. He was little help and when he was around he was ‘something else to look after’. I was so so resentful, but I did still love him to some degree. Our kids are now all adults.
To be honest, he had to fully admit to what a shit husband and dad he’d been and told me he felt overwhelmed himself, with trying to provide for us. Not completely true as I worked too (I was exhausted) but I think he just chickened out of parenting and left me to it. I was looking after everyone and nobody was looking after me. He has had to put in a lot of work repairing the damage but he is making a huge effort to do this. Being more kind and thoughtful and just being generally better to me etc.
We haven’t put everything right, but we’re really getting there and I’m fairly confident we’ll end our days together happily.
Just to say, if you love her, all may not be lost yet.

I feel really bad for you, but I need to question this -

I was consumed by my job and thought (foolishly with hindsight) that me focussing on giving us financial stability was my role

Did you really think that, in this day and age? Did your wife not communicate to you that she wanted help? Did you feel you could/were allowed play a bigger part with your kids?

The reason why I'm questioning is that when a marriage fails, sometimes people have a tendency of burying their heads in the sand or making a narrative that puts them in a better light, that's slightly more palatable to the ego.

Some men ignore their wives. They allow them to do most of the childcare, not valuing their contribution as actual work and therefore never really helping like they should. They assume their wives never need time to themselves (because they're at home all day just playing with kids, according to them, and it's not 'real' work).

However, the husbands don't want to be doing all of that because deep down they might realise what a relentless, often menial or thankful job it is that even they themselves don't truly value, and so throw themselves into work. They get a get-a-out of jail card which helps them shirk the more messy, boring side of parenting. They leave it all to their wives who struggle, become more and more resentful as the years go as they wonder where their previously lovely husband went. A husband, that despite being absent, still expects regular sex for their exhausted wife.

Their wives then make it clear that they're at breaking point and then all of a sudden the husband comes out with this more flattering narrative about himself - that he was just doing what he thought he was supposed to, that he was the stoic, masculine hero throwing himself into work for the sake of the family......whereas actually he totally ignored his wife's pleas for help because it suited him.

Once you see that, once you've seen that your partner neglected you because they could, once they let you down like that, it's really difficult to come back from it.

@EarthSight - you have put it more articulately than I ever could. Nail on the head.

But then I can try and still be a good albeit long distance father, as I know emotionally I have a chance of rebuilding my life and confidence. But staying here, I may well be more present. But I will be a shadow of my former self. So they will see me more, but not the person I want to be

Long distance father? You won't really be doing the menial, less fun side of parenting then, will you? Who do you think will have to look after them every time they're sick and to mop up their vomit, every time they're at a doctor's appointment, be taking them to and from school, be taking them to their friend's houses, be ferrying them around for events or classes? Who do you think will pack their bags in the morning? Who'll be doing their laundry? How often will they see you in person?

With the way you've written that, it sounds like you are almost looking for a reason to leave normal family life. I would urge you to have a go at living more locally first before making an major decisions/moves. Your children might be more forgiving when they're younger, when you're able to entertain them when they/you visit, but when they're older they will be able to put things into context. Make sure your decisions are ones you can truly justify, and will be understood/sympathised with by them as adults, one that isn't reliant on casting your wife in a bad light to them in order to balance out your own.

I think the first thing that needs to happen is that your wife needs to start working more. She's clever you say? What does she want to go back to study? I'm thinking that part of the reason she might be ok with the way things are for the time being is because she's hoping you'll fund her studies. She might think of it as compensation.

@Flippittyflopperty Glad you think so because I've already seen a few things in my post that need correcting. No edit button! Argh.

@EarthSight spot on!

I agree there are 2 kinds of father

Present

Absent

Simple

but when they're older they will be able to put things into context

I was blindsided myself when dd figured out her dad

The first point was when she was learning about sex Ed and took it upon herself to work out when her dads 2nd wife fell pregnant with their first (we were still married, dd knew when we had split - month and year)

The next was when she saw some things by accident that led to her working out I'd been organising, chivvying her dad, facilitating and paying for all the contact he did have with her. She asked me to stop, which I had to anyway at least the paying side as I could no longer afford. But she wanted to see if he'd step up...he didn't.

She is now 20 and totally has his number without me having to say a word!

I brought up 2 kids whilst my DH worked incredibly hard. There was a period where he would get up at 4am on Monday, drive to the airport, fly to another country and return on Friday evening. Whilst at work he would get in at 8 am and leave around 10 pm as his workload was huge.

Yes it was tough for me and yes I had days where my world was breaking and I longed for adult conversation which was not centred around the kids but I also had days with friends going out with the kids, I had mornings where we would all lie in bed together watching TV and eating crap. It was wonderful and I would love to have those days again.

My DH never got that for years and now we are older the kids (grown up) adore him to the point that our son chose him as his best man at his wedding. I would say it is not all a one sided misery with kids it is also uplifting and I don't believe there is a more rewarding job on the planet.

As for the OP yes he has made mistakes, we all do, but he should not have to live a life where he has to constantly be reminded of it and to continually pay for it.

If the OP is still reading this I would say the choice to possibly move away is wrong and you will regret it forever. Sit down, apologise to your wife for past mistakes and find a way forward or separate for your sake, the kids sake and you DWs sake.

Well put @Graphista Your experience is classic and something that happens over and over again.
Op, you’d do well to listen to the advice you’ve been given here. If you’re so keen to be a good father you need to be so careful of what you do next and how you do it. The mothers and fathers that put in the graft and work with their partners/former partners are the parents that do the best with their kids - and the adults that these kids become recognise who it was that did the heavy lifting.

I think the core of the hurt women like this feel when men leave it all to them during the very tough labour intensive years, is that the women recognise pur selfishness.

That the men choose themselves completely above the family.

That kills love, respect and certainly libido.

The longer it goes on the greater the detachment.

Unfortunately for many men their wives are often very over them by the time the penny drops.

Any whiff of the OP leaving and moving will confirm to his wife everything that she has felt, and rightly so.

OP have you had any couple counselling ?
You say she is angry about you working so much when the children were very small, but you have explained why, and tried to work through this, so at some point she has to let it go and move on, or you need to split up. Holding on to resentment is pointless.
I wonder if she was so ground down by the slog of small children that she placed all her frustrations on to you, whereas both of you were trying to do your best.
My DH has always done a huge amount with the children, but even so when they were very little we moved areas and then had a patch where we bickered a lot, I was just exhausted all the time, and had no friends nearby to talk to, he was working hard to support us all , so he was stressed. I think this is very commonly a tough time for couples. I also did not want to be cuddled or kissed , as I spent all day with a baby and a toddler cuddled up with me, so when they were asleep I just wanted to have some quiet and be left alone ( this is my temperament, nothing to do with my DH ). Again this seems fairly common. I have a health issue that causes extreme tiredness that hadn’t been diagnosed at that point which was another factor.
We generally get along very well and rarely argue, so the low level bickering was upsetting for both of us. After some rows it became clear to me that he was doing his best, it was just a difficult time that would eventually pass, as it did. It helped that we did always like each other and laugh at things together, even when I was tired all the time, and snappy, and he was also tired out and grumpy.

I think your wife is stuck in this feeling of you being the one at fault, and maybe you are, but it seems to be more that children are a massive adjustment, and you made a mistake by focusing on work but that you didn’t mean to be unsupportive, you both just had different ideas of what life should be like with little children. You say she acknowledges that you have changed your behaviour, does she talk about the future ? Does she still love you ? Is she depressed ?
I think there can be a lot of resentment and adjustment when you have babies, that as a mother you are the one who is ultimately responsible, that your life is more changed if you see what I mean ? As evidenced here by your suggestion of moving so far away, and leaving her to deal with every illness, every drama or emergency, all the day to day stuff of young children all alone.

Do you ever manage to have any fun together ? Because it all sounds so joyless. She is resentful and unhappy, and possibly would be much happier working. You are anxious and miserable and constantly on the back foot. It can’t go on like this, you both need something to change.

I think counselling together might be helpful. Maybe you do need to separate ( and I agree with all pps, do not move away from your children) , but maybe you can move forward and have a fresh start. Good luck.

@EarthSight

I feel really bad for you, but I need to question this -

I was consumed by my job and thought (foolishly with hindsight) that me focussing on giving us financial stability was my role

Did you really think that, in this day and age? Did your wife not communicate to you that she wanted help? Did you feel you could/were allowed play a bigger part with your kids?

The reason why I'm questioning is that when a marriage fails, sometimes people have a tendency of burying their heads in the sand or making a narrative that puts them in a better light, that's slightly more palatable to the ego.

Some men ignore their wives. They allow them to do most of the childcare, not valuing their contribution as actual work and therefore never really helping like they should. They assume their wives never need time to themselves (because they're at home all day just playing with kids, according to them, and it's not 'real' work).

However, the husbands don't want to be doing all of that because deep down they might realise what a relentless, often menial or thankful job it is that even they themselves don't truly value, and so throw themselves into work. They get a get-a-out of jail card which helps them shirk the more messy, boring side of parenting. They leave it all to their wives who struggle, become more and more resentful as the years go as they wonder where their previously lovely husband went. A husband, that despite being absent, still expects regular sex for their exhausted wife.

Their wives then make it clear that they're at breaking point and then all of a sudden the husband comes out with this more flattering narrative about himself - that he was just doing what he thought he was supposed to, that he was the stoic, masculine hero throwing himself into work for the sake of the family......whereas actually he totally ignored his wife's pleas for help because it suited him.

Once you see that, once you've seen that your partner neglected you because they could, once they let you down like that, it's really difficult to come back from it.

Mine hasn't bothered with the more flattering narrative, it's still my fault. But the rest is spot on.

I do also agree with EarthSight and billy
You need to really think about your motivations OP, and whether you did think that focusing on work was the right thing at the time, or whether it was the nicer thing for you, and be honest with your wife.
Small children are wonderful of course, but it can be exhausting and repetitive looking after a baby and a toddler all day every day.
Humans have evolved to live in extended family groups, it isn’t natural for women to be so alone with young children, and it is hard and lonely to be in that situation.

OP, I genuinely think you could do with some counselling.

You come across as a man who believes they are completely incapable of managing their own emotions, and holds other people responsible for these. You also come across as someone who can only see their own needs, even when meeting their own needs will hurt those who are closest to them, or reliant on them - such as your children.

As I said before, you not only did not give your wife enough support when the children were young - your own admission - but simultaneously wanted her to move from her support networks so you could be closer to yours. ( You needed other people to manage your emotions as you couldn't manage your own, and didn't care if your wife got hurt in the process)

You want to run away now to your support networks as you feel unable to manage your emotions (and don't care if your wife or children get hurt in the process).

You feel you need to move for support during the divorce, as if you will be the main victim and unable to cope, and seem completely unaware or unconcerned that your wife and children will be most adversely affected by the divorce as they are not financially independent as you are. Your move will make things harder for them, and harder for your wife to get herself a position where she can support herself and the children. But you show no awareness or concern for this at all. You are only focussed on you.

You see yourself as not responsible for your emotions to posts on this thread, but blame others for suicidal feelings.

You are capable of managing your own emotions and finding ways where you live now to build a more resilient you.

I really don't think you have any hope of saving your marriage until you work on the attitudes and beliefs I have outlined. Your wife and children will only ever been a supporting role to the main event of you. Your wife appears to have worked this out and I presume it is why she has emotionally disengaged from you.

Small children can be utterly relentless.
Relentless.
Then the broken sleep.
The long days.
The juggling their different needs.
Eyes at the back of your head.
That's before you factor in teething, illness, and just how LONG some days feel.

I remember waking some mornings and asking God/the universe to give me the patience, strength and energy to get through the day.
I had a great husband, great kids and no financial worries whatsoever.
I still found it hard.

There were definitely days where I would have rathered I was in work, doing anything else.

The men who put all their energy into work and conveniently leave their wife to it, are definitely putting themselves and what's easier for them first.

I for one can well imagine it ending the emotional connection, respect and as for libido....it would totally kill it.

It's not as if after running around after children all day, sex would be high on my list anyway.

Having nursed, lifted, carried, dragged, been climbed over all day, the one thing I wanted was to have a bit of body autonomy and rest.

You say she is angry about you working so much when the children were very small, but you have explained why, and tried to work through this, so at some point she has to let it go and move on, or you need to split up. Holding on to resentment is pointless

But this isn't what happened. What happened with you and your husband @SirVixofVixHall isn't the same as what has happened here. At this time he was not just working hard, as was she looking after small children and the house alone, but he was, according to himself, arguing with her about why they should move away to be near his support networks as he needed them.
He couldn't have made his lack of respect and understanding and caring for her clearer. At this time of stress, he wanted to take her away from ALL her support networks so he could access his. He actually argued with her about this.

Humans have evolved to live in extended family groups, it isn’t natural for women to be so alone with young children, and it is hard and lonely to be in that situation
Yes and OP was unconcerned about making it lonelier for her so it would be less lonely for him.

That needs to sink in to understand why she emotionally disengaged from him.

I didn’t suggest that my situation was the same, of course no two relationships are the same, just that the time with small children is hard for many relationships, and particularly for women who are left to cope alone.

@SirVixofVixHall

I didn’t suggest that my situation was the same, of course no two relationships are the same, just that the time with small children is hard for many relationships, and particularly for women who are left to cope alone.

Yes, but what I am saying is that I don't think the problem in their marriage has been caused by the 'time with small children', but by the person that OP is and his attitudes and behaviour.

The 'time with small children' may have provided the catalyst for his relationship-destroying underlying beliefs and behaviours to come to the forefront of his wife's attention, but it hasn't caused those beliefs and behaviours.

Hi all,

Just to let you know I am still reading these posts. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I have seriously re-assessed the move away and, quite rightly, it is something that I dont think I could forgive myself for. And I have felt calmer / not as panicky if our marriage ends assuming that I continue life down here to be closer to my children.

You are all right. It is a shitty notion to have thought this. I kind of thought that Skyping / Bi Weekly visits would be enough. But you are right in that so much of the bonding is the day to day, which sometimes appears not particularly exciting, but is very important to building a connection / bond.

So if things dont work out, I dont intend to leave. We may have to buy 2 smaller houses, but I will be there / close by for my children.

In terms of situation with my wife. Well it is just very complicated. We still get on. We still have a laugh sometimes. We kind of are still friends. So I guess that is good? But when we talk about the state of our marriage, that is when things get confrontational. We have tried counselling, but it hasnt worked.

She says she needs time. And that she may never be able to forgive me. Whether I like this or not is irrelevant. It is her view and I must respect this.

But the thing that is inescapable is that this is not what a marriage is supposed to be. So whether I deserve this or not, it is not a situation that is particularly healthy to continue.

I really really hope we can work things out, as we do operate well as a family unit.

Thanks again and take care all

@Eric7 - It sounds like you’ve tried hard (counselling, communicating) which is great but it doesn’t sound like things have changed from a marriage perspective.
It very much sounds like you’re friends and you’re co-parenting.
It’s great that you’ve had a rethink about your living arrangements if you decide to part ways, as this is the time that your children really need you.
Do you have much of a sex life?

We have tried counselling, but it hasn't worked
Most counsellors are crap. A few of good but most are not. I rate the approach to marriage support from the Gottman Institute, all based on research. Its recognises that marriages are about friendship so it works on rebuilding that.

Though tbh, from your posts I strongly get the impression that you don't really understand what it is to be in an intimate relationship with another person, whether your wife or children. There is something strangely lacking when you describe your approach to your relationship with your children or wife. Like there is something really fundamental missing in your understanding. Its partly that you clearly are unable to centre the other person, whether your wife or child, its partly that you seem to speak with more heart and passion about your own feelings and perspectives than about the impact on them which comes across as more of a logical analysis (if mentioned at all). I don't know. Its like you can't really see them as people who matter in their own right, but just in terms of what they bring to your life and what you want to get from them being in your life. And that's maybe why your marriage worked pre-kids if there were no significant ongoing emotional or relational demands placed on you by times of real stress, and you could get by as people who enjoyed each others company and had a laugh. But when kids came and you needed to step up in terms of understanding what it meant to really to understand and be in relation with someone else and see what they needed from you, you weren't able to do that.

@LollyPops111

I have not had sex for over a year with my wife. It feels very odd to disclose this (albeit anonymously) to a collection of helpful strangers. Very much her choice.