Help! Can things be repaired or am I destined to be in a loveless marriage??

[Eric7]

Hi all,

First time posting on one of these forums. Would really welcome some help. Been with my wife for over 20 years (Married for 11). She was my best friend. Things got tougher initially when we had 2 kids. However they are 5 and 7 now and we operate well as a family. Issue is my wife 12 months ago asked me to sleep in the spare room. Prior to that we argued from time to time about various things (work life balance, where we live, libidos (mine higher)). She says all the arguments caused her anxiety.

Since I moved into the spare room there has been no intimacy. My wife is also more detached from me. We still speak and sort of get on. We give each other a kiss in the morning and before bed time, but it is not the same. We have been going to counselling for the past 6 months. She provided a list of things she wanted me to change about things I do, which I think I have made great efforts to address (she agrees to). However there is little change in her stance. She says is affected by what happened previously and also she has lost the emotional connection to me / us and wants to try and find it again. But she doesn’t make much effort in trying to re establish it. It is always me offering her a hug, holding her hand, trying to make conversation. She spends most of her time looking at her phone when we are together.
The last 12 months have been awful. I work in a pretty stressful albeit well paid job and am the sole breadwinner in the house. Our kids are great and I could see us being a happy family and giving them a good life.
The issue however is my wife’s stance with me has taken a massive toll. I feel anxious now when I am around her. I feel constantly low and almost on the brink of tears sometimes. I have to maintain a façade when anyone asks about us, how we are.
With the lack of change I think I have a decision to make. I no longer have hope that we can work things out. I have done all I can to be a better person, but she has just remained withdrawn.
I can leave, but then I will have to move away back to my home town (200 miles away). All the close friends here are our neighbours, so I will lose them if I move out. I still have friends back in my home town, and whilst I doubt they are going to be as good as a rock as say family would be (PS Both my parents passed away so no longer have that support network), they will help. But I suspect I will have to deal with the pain on my own. And the pain of not seeing my kids grow up is horrible.
The other option is to stay, but accept that this is my life for the next 20 years in that I live in a pretty much loveless marriage. I at least get to be a dad to my children, but I fear I will change and become a more bitter person the longer this goes on.
Any thoughts advice appreciated. I would also like to know if anyone has stuck at such a situation and whether they are glad they did. Am in wrong and can things actually be repaired with my wife??? Or whether it was a mistake with hindsight?

Just to be clear I still care massively about my wife, and I think I still love her. I am still very attracted to her and just wish she would be the person I married (or as close to), as I really believe we could be a great family. But maybe my wishes are a bit delusional???

I am in my early forties, so perhaps there is a slim chance I could rebuild my life now. But I am scarred that I could be in the same position after a few more years.
I just want to be with someone who makes me happy, and who I can make happy as well. I don’t think that is unreasonable!!!
Thanks

@Mabelone

I also agree that he is getting a hard time. His wife is not blameless in this and yet seems to be getting lots of sympathy.

I think its because there is enough in his narrative to give lie to the fact that he is the good guy who has tried very hard and it is all his wife's fault for ruining everything.

Can your DW contribute financially? She goes to the gym each day and seems to be quite picky about a job when you are working for 10 hrs a day. Seems a bit of an imbalance to me.

@Mabelone

I also agree that he is getting a hard time. His wife is not blameless in this and yet seems to be getting lots of sympathy.

OP has told us himself that he made mistakes and it is his fault. Why would his wife not get sympathy?

OP: "And I have to admit that when the kids were born, I could have been better and more supportive. I was consumed by my job and thought (foolishly with hindsight) that me focussing on giving us financial stability was my role, when I should have been more supportive in the early years with the kids."

Hi all. I wasnt expecting this level of response. It has been very very helpful. I was expecting a balance and wanted a blend of harsh and fair. I was already questioning the decision about moving so far away last night, and then when my 7 year old son recongnised a rock tune on the radio today and said he'd like to go to a concert to see the band, it hammered it home that if I live 200 miles away it wouldnt be possible.

To those who question my love for children / being a disney dad, it isnt as simple as this. Every post I read about divorce / separation reaffirms that having a support network will massively help. It is the fear of simply not having this support network that is driving this decision.

In short I am more open to the idea of staying local / or at least trying to in the short term. I am unsure if my wife fully appreciates the sacrifices we will have to make and the likelihood that we will have to sell the house.

I think the next steps for me are a) go see a doctor and get some help (which i have arranged an appointment for) and b) have a frank conversation with my wife about our future and the practicalities of separation and the financial consequences.

And please to anyone who did use the phrase "man up" or was pretty cutting in their response. I have no idea if you have been hurt by someone. But just remember that we are not all 4rseholes. Nothing is black and white. It is just confusing and often is the least worse result. I didnt intend to cause my wife anguish. I was just naive / daft and thought financial stability was just as important as being hands on with the kids. And just for clarity I dont work all the hours. Pre pandemic I would go in early and get the train home to be there for bathtime put the kids to bed each night. I do what I can to help, but get it is probably 10% to 20% of the workload (if that actually). But then I am doing 100% of the earning. So I dont know what the correct answer is.

I was expecting some sharp responses, but I can now understand why suicide is so high in my age group if you are being told you are dirt when you ask a question. So please for others who ask the question, dont assume they are terrible human beings. They are just confused and are asking for help / guidance.

However it has done the trick. And now I am thinking more carefully as to what to do. And considering how each option would work (when previously I wasnt thinking about staying here).

Cheers again and wish you all the best.

My DH worked crazy hours including retraining for 5-years when our kids were younger. He never had the joy of taking them to the park with friends or seeing the wonder they had when we went to new places. I love my DH to bits for the sacrifices he made for all of us, and to this day it continues. The kids have never felt unloved by him and when he was around his full focus was on us. His sacrifices have given the kids a great life and given me the opportunity to take a lower paid job in an area where I want to work. Please don't beat yourself up for having the drive to provide, in my eyes it is a wonderful trait.

Glad to hear that you have made an appointment with the doctor, Eric!
If you are really down, then honestly I think it could actually be very helpful to you to have the kids nearby: if they are far away, out of sight, it would be much easier for a depressed mind to come up with unhealthy ideas than if you see them regularly. When you're depressed you imagine throwing yourself under a bus or whatever and you are convinced that the kids would get over it really quickly. All the easier to convince yourself of such weird ideas if the kids are just a distant memory. But when they are there, you get situations like the one you describe above and it brings you back to reality. Plus, having a nice cuddle with your babies is good for you, not just them! I do hope you can arrange it so that you have plenty of time with them.

Come back at some point and let us know how you are doing. In my experience, the point you are at now was absolutely the worst - when you are having to cope with that horrible atmosphere, it does you in. Once you are out of that situation your head wlll start to clear.

Out of interest did you give her a list??

Don't move 200 miles away, that would really hurt your children.

I think you need to look at your past behaviour and ask yourself if your wife has a point and is she being reasonable

You were together a long time before the kids came along so the dynamic will have changed hugely, a bomb going off in your relationship.

We were similar. My wife gave up work and as she was earning £65k i had to ensure I kept my job and advanced my career. As a result I was out of the house 13 hours a day and so all child care mon-fri was down to her. We split it 50/50 at the weekend.

I had the stress of paying for everything, she had the stress of looking after the family, or as we used to joke, she kept the show on the road and I paid for it.

So what I am saying is you have to look at the past and ask if you are entirely to blame or whether your wife is being slightly unreasonable and exaggerating things to mask the fact that she has fallen out of love with you.

Good for you OP.

Forgiveness is hard but important in a marriage at times.

Perhaps you both can't move on and will have to separate but a very frank conversation about your finances needs to be had.

You are living beyond your means and that cannot continue.

You need to do your homework on a spreadsheet and lay it all out for your wife to see.
Why is she not aware of how much is being over spent?

A sharp adjustment is going to have to occur and can be part of a new reality.

Hopefully a full and frank conversation with your GP will bear some fruit.
Tell the GP exactly how you are feeling.
Perhaps some counselling would help you too.

I agree to be so far away from the kids would most likely fuel your depression, support network or not. The older kids get I find the more rewarding it is being a parent and the more I miss them - you're still at the age where they're very dependent and it can feel like a grind. And yes the activities you do with them suddenly seem a lot more fun!

@Eric7

Hi all. I wasnt expecting this level of response. It has been very very helpful. I was expecting a balance and wanted a blend of harsh and fair. I was already questioning the decision about moving so far away last night, and then when my 7 year old son recongnised a rock tune on the radio today and said he'd like to go to a concert to see the band, it hammered it home that if I live 200 miles away it wouldnt be possible.

To those who question my love for children / being a disney dad, it isnt as simple as this. Every post I read about divorce / separation reaffirms that having a support network will massively help. It is the fear of simply not having this support network that is driving this decision.

In short I am more open to the idea of staying local / or at least trying to in the short term. I am unsure if my wife fully appreciates the sacrifices we will have to make and the likelihood that we will have to sell the house.

I think the next steps for me are a) go see a doctor and get some help (which i have arranged an appointment for) and b) have a frank conversation with my wife about our future and the practicalities of separation and the financial consequences.

And please to anyone who did use the phrase "man up" or was pretty cutting in their response. I have no idea if you have been hurt by someone. But just remember that we are not all 4rseholes. Nothing is black and white. It is just confusing and often is the least worse result. I didnt intend to cause my wife anguish. I was just naive / daft and thought financial stability was just as important as being hands on with the kids. And just for clarity I dont work all the hours. Pre pandemic I would go in early and get the train home to be there for bathtime put the kids to bed each night. I do what I can to help, but get it is probably 10% to 20% of the workload (if that actually). But then I am doing 100% of the earning. So I dont know what the correct answer is.

I was expecting some sharp responses, but I can now understand why suicide is so high in my age group if you are being told you are dirt when you ask a question. So please for others who ask the question, dont assume they are terrible human beings. They are just confused and are asking for help / guidance.

However it has done the trick. And now I am thinking more carefully as to what to do. And considering how each option would work (when previously I wasnt thinking about staying here).

Cheers again and wish you all the best.

Good for op.

In relation to your little boy wanting to go to an event - the point is not only would you be too far away to take him but your relationship would become one where he didn't casually mention these kinds of things.

FWIW I think you've responded incredibly well to the thread OP, and been dignified in the face of some posts that have minimised the challenges from your side. Good luck with your next steps.

Interesting to see responses if the challenges were mixed up a bit. I've been sleeping in separate bedrooms from my DH for 3 years, and I'm the breadwinner. He does work hard, but spent a decade being chronically underemployed. I did 80% of the earning and also 80% of the parenting and still carry 60%of the mental load of household. This reduced us to compares and housemates, probably irreversibly.

I completely understand how a man with all the social conditioning a man grows up with might feel that being the provider is their best contribution, and also that the demands of this role are frequently underplayed in the world of SAHMs. The key of course is good communication to ensure everyone's needs are met, no matter what the split of household admin / children / earning is, and knowing that the ideal balance will be unique to each family and change over time. It sounds like communication failures are actually what have broken your relationship in the past and are the thing that is preventing a resolution now.

It sounds as if you made her experience of new motherhood quite shitty, with the lack of practical support, the badgering to move north, and what seems to me to be an Inability to see things in any terms except financial, along with a focus on your libido.

It also sounds as if she won't get to experience new motherhood again. So in order to forgive you, she needs to be allowed to grieve whatever she feels she has lost, and reassess whether there's anything left to build on.

But you're pressing her with band holding, which she has interpreted as yet more evidence of you wanting something from her, and you don't seem to understand what it is that landed you in the spare bedroom.

You need to listen really hard to what she's telling you about the damage done to the relationship by the arguments, the topics of the arguments, and how the experience of life with you didn't match her hopes.

I'm in a sexless relationship but not for much longer. Fuck that.
She's using you op.
You only get one life!

Do not move away from your kids, unfortunately your want for old friends (who have their own lives) is not a priority & seems very self centred.
When I divorced it split our friendship groups but you survive, new friends are made, new interests found, new partner possibly.
You’re a dad and your kids must come first, sell up and buy two smaller houses and your wife needs to get a job.

Just to second try and stay near your kids, you can always go and visit friends up north when you haven’t got the kids (or with your kids)

You may find that your local friends do offer the support that you need, or your old ones back home won’t. There are no guarantees!

We only have your side of the story and you still come across as a very selfish man who only sees things from your perspective

Definitely

@GravityFalls very well said! As someone who also has severe mh issues and who has moved for other reasons but on paper the move should have improved mh and hasn't - you simply take those issues with you

@mammmamia where does it say he was FORCED to buy a 4 bed exactly where they did and for her to be a sahm without him having ANY say in the matter? Total nonsense

@ravenmum well said

@sortingout 👏👏

Wanting to move so far away from your kids is totally abnormal

Not for men, not in this country

True love is not selfish, it's about sacrifice and self giving when the occasion calls for it, not just enjoying good times

But I agree about this

I think its because there is enough in his narrative to give lie to the fact that he is the good guy who has tried very hard and it is all his wife's fault for ruining everything

Yep

it isnt as simple as this

Of course it's not, but we simplify arguments to get points across. My dad was abusive, it's not all he was, but it's the dominating factor

Every post I read about divorce / separation reaffirms that having a support network will massively help

But there's no reason why you can't build a support network where you are, plus you'd already have the beginnings in the form of your ex wife and dc anyway

Next steps make sense BUT don't be harsh with your wife, she may not see this coming necessarily

I do what I can to help

You're continued attitude here though is precisely the problem - it's not "help" it's BEING a father and husband!

But then I am doing 100% of the earning.

Wow!

If you were a single dad and wife wasn't around could you earn like this? Very very unlikely as it's impossible to get childcare for those kind of hours! I'm a single mum and have been for almost 19 years. You have NO IDEA how much your wife has supported you in your career none!

Regarding the suicide comment

1 low blow!

2 it's really not that simple! Men are more likely to complete suicide because of the methods they tend towards, NOT because they suffer more from depression or are more suicidal than women, that's a myth! The number of people who attempt/visualise suicide are roughly equal between the sexes

The older kids get I find the more rewarding it is being a parent and the more I miss them

Absolutely

You need to listen more and better, and consider how things are for everyone involved not just you

@Fabiofatshaft1

I think all the posts above clearly illustrate that as as a rule of thumb, women are much nicer and better human beings than men.

And I think much of the rhetoric above should be taught in schools and especially young boys.

This is a ridiculous, unhelpful, reductionist, and quite cruel response.

@ravenmum

I have never understood why some men are forced into this position by women who refuse to pull their weight financially and then “check out” of the marriage because the DH was too busy trying to maintain their lifestyle to help much around the house. Surprised this needs an explanation on a site full of mums, but here goes.

The wife works in a child-unfriendly job: if she stays in that job, the children will have to be in paid outside care from the early morning to the evening. So they decide as a couple that it would be better for the wife to be a SAHM.

The husband starts working ten-hour days and does not have time to help her with her duties run his own household along with his wife. His wife tries to adapt and also earn money by a new means. But as her husband will not do any pickups at all, she can only do quite poorly paid jobs (these often having shorter/more flexible hours). If she gets a job with longer hours and thus requiring childcare, the cost of the childcare uses up all the extra pay. She could work more, but they would not be better off as a result.

(Some of this may not apply precisely to OP, but you get the gist.)

The children are school age. Many mums work during school hours. Yes they are usually less paid jobs but it's always extra money compared to not working at all.

@Nancydrawn

You are entitled to your point of view. I am entitled to mine.

I’ve seen the other side. Cheated on, divorced and lost everything, but not long after the divorce, along with having a full time demanding job, my 11 year old son came to live with me full time, because he couldn’t get along with my ( ex ) wife’s affair partner and he was being emotionally abused.

Until he reached manhood. One of the most demanding, challenging, beautiful and enriching periods of my life.

In my experience, it’s the men who walk away and the women who do all the heavy lifting.

Mostly.

So who am I being cruel to !? Is your opinion any less helpful than mine !? Reductionist !? As unhelpful as YOUR opinion.

@Nancydrawn

I like to lay things out in simple terms, ( But with nuance ).

Dictionary definition of Reductionist: Someone who lays out complex issues in simple terms.

You’re right. I’m a reductionist.

I was expecting some sharp responses, but I can now understand why suicide is so high in my age group if you are being told you are dirt when you ask a question. So please for others who ask the question, dont assume they are terrible human beings. They are just confused and are asking for help / guidance.

Your response comes across as so manipulative. ‘Don’t hold me to account for my behaviour or I might commit suicide’.

You’re being so disingenuous. Of course earning an income is important, especially when you have kids, but babies and toddlers are SO much work. The sleep deprivation can feel unbearable. It is so much more work than a 50 hour a week job. When my child was a newborn I would have killed to have a 30 minute lunch break or a long commute home so I could listen to a podcast. If my DH didn’t pull his weight when he was at home I would have grown to hate him. You mention that you play golf and go to the gym at the weekends now. I imagine your wife seethes with resentment every day.

Where there's not abuse in a relationship I think usually there's fault on both sides. Things went wrong, you both didn't communicate or hear each other clearly. You both found it tough and distance grew between you. If you hadn't said you were planning to move 200 miles away from your children you would have got a lot less harsh replies. It's hard to think someone is a good parent and husband when they're thinking of opting out of the vast majority of parenting.

I feel for both of you, what you're going through is really tough. GP is a great start. Next start to build some supports where you are. Maybe you could get to know the neighbouring dad's you mentioned better. If you're on Facebook I expect there's Dad's groups you could join. It's great you've taken the advice on board and are considering not moving if your marriage ends.

Something to consider, who you are and what you've been through, the scars and hurts, the depression, none of that gets better by leaving. All of that sadness, anger, hurt you're feeling won't go away by simply moving. It comes with you. The one thing moving will achieve for sure, is adding missing your DC to the other feelings you're struggling with.

If you're old friends are good supports they can be a good support on the phone or on a weekend visit. If you're not currently close currently I doubt moving will give you the closeness and support you're seeking.

Fabio, I'm very sorry that you've had such a difficult time of it. Genuinely.

But I do think it's problematic to say that women are better human beings than men, as a categorical whole. I think it's absolutely fair to talk about toxic masculinity, for example, but I don't think there's anything inherently unkind about men or anything that makes them bad people.

In my own experience, I have known selfish men and selfish women. For example, I've known mothers who were cruel and cold to their children (while the fathers provided the emotional support and stability). I think you only have to go to the stately homes thread to see examples of mothers, sisters, grandmothers, wives, etc. who were emotionally abusive to their families. And there are plenty of threads about female friends, co-workers, bosses, and neighbours who are awful, even abusive, to the posters.

However, I don't think that means women are inherently unkind or bad people. I think it means that like, for everyone, some people are kind and some are not, some are good and some are not. And for almost everybody, there is also a mix of kindness and unkindness, good and bad, in all of us.

What I'm trying to say is that people are complex. They usually can't be reduced on an individual level. And it's very problematic to reduce them on a categorical level.

(On the other hand, you can absolutely and entirely bemoan toxicity, socialization, and gendered culture. That's completely fair.)

Again, I'm sorry you've had so much difficulty in your life. (I really mean that.)

@mathanxiety

It sounds as if you made her experience of new motherhood quite shitty, with the lack of practical support, the badgering to move north, and what seems to me to be an Inability to see things in any terms except financial, along with a focus on your libido.

It also sounds as if she won't get to experience new motherhood again. So in order to forgive you, she needs to be allowed to grieve whatever she feels she has lost, and reassess whether there's anything left to build on.

But you're pressing her with band holding, which she has interpreted as yet more evidence of you wanting something from her, and you don't seem to understand what it is that landed you in the spare bedroom.

You need to listen really hard to what she's telling you about the damage done to the relationship by the arguments, the topics of the arguments, and how the experience of life with you didn't match her hopes.

I was thinking some of this reading your posts. That you're not really understanding how this has impacted her or you wouldn't pressuring her for intimacy. The problems in your relationship need to be fixed first. DH did the same, though there were a couple of scary indcidents mixed in their too. I was trying to feel comfortable being around him again and he kept pushing and pushing, and it was the last straw. It's impossible to fix things now because he couldn't respect my boundaries and my needs.

To be honest you kinda lost me at the kids not being a priority unless your wife improves her attitude and you'd up sticks and move 400 miles away.