Help! Can things be repaired or am I destined to be in a loveless marriage??

[Eric7]

Hi all,

First time posting on one of these forums. Would really welcome some help. Been with my wife for over 20 years (Married for 11). She was my best friend. Things got tougher initially when we had 2 kids. However they are 5 and 7 now and we operate well as a family. Issue is my wife 12 months ago asked me to sleep in the spare room. Prior to that we argued from time to time about various things (work life balance, where we live, libidos (mine higher)). She says all the arguments caused her anxiety.

Since I moved into the spare room there has been no intimacy. My wife is also more detached from me. We still speak and sort of get on. We give each other a kiss in the morning and before bed time, but it is not the same. We have been going to counselling for the past 6 months. She provided a list of things she wanted me to change about things I do, which I think I have made great efforts to address (she agrees to). However there is little change in her stance. She says is affected by what happened previously and also she has lost the emotional connection to me / us and wants to try and find it again. But she doesn’t make much effort in trying to re establish it. It is always me offering her a hug, holding her hand, trying to make conversation. She spends most of her time looking at her phone when we are together.
The last 12 months have been awful. I work in a pretty stressful albeit well paid job and am the sole breadwinner in the house. Our kids are great and I could see us being a happy family and giving them a good life.
The issue however is my wife’s stance with me has taken a massive toll. I feel anxious now when I am around her. I feel constantly low and almost on the brink of tears sometimes. I have to maintain a façade when anyone asks about us, how we are.
With the lack of change I think I have a decision to make. I no longer have hope that we can work things out. I have done all I can to be a better person, but she has just remained withdrawn.
I can leave, but then I will have to move away back to my home town (200 miles away). All the close friends here are our neighbours, so I will lose them if I move out. I still have friends back in my home town, and whilst I doubt they are going to be as good as a rock as say family would be (PS Both my parents passed away so no longer have that support network), they will help. But I suspect I will have to deal with the pain on my own. And the pain of not seeing my kids grow up is horrible.
The other option is to stay, but accept that this is my life for the next 20 years in that I live in a pretty much loveless marriage. I at least get to be a dad to my children, but I fear I will change and become a more bitter person the longer this goes on.
Any thoughts advice appreciated. I would also like to know if anyone has stuck at such a situation and whether they are glad they did. Am in wrong and can things actually be repaired with my wife??? Or whether it was a mistake with hindsight?

Just to be clear I still care massively about my wife, and I think I still love her. I am still very attracted to her and just wish she would be the person I married (or as close to), as I really believe we could be a great family. But maybe my wishes are a bit delusional???

I am in my early forties, so perhaps there is a slim chance I could rebuild my life now. But I am scarred that I could be in the same position after a few more years.
I just want to be with someone who makes me happy, and who I can make happy as well. I don’t think that is unreasonable!!!
Thanks

Don't move away from your children. They won't understand the reasons for you going and will just feel abandoned by you. You need to tough this out near them. Move out, rent a flat or house, join clubs / start new hobbies - make friends that way. Do not move away from your children. That's utterly selfish. You need to be the grown up here and stay around for your children - this is not their fault.

Sit down with your wife, with a piece of paper, a pencil, a calculator and the local property rag.

Explain that you both need a home in the locality for the benefit of the children and yourselves.

If it’s over, her staying and running a four bedroom home isn’t sustainable.

The kids will adapt, better than you think. If you keep things amicable, it will be an adventure for them.

For many years your wife, and probably the children have felt ‘ abandoned . ( Yes I know you worked hard and long hours to provide a comfortable lifestyle for your family ).

Now you are talking about abandoning them again.

Be an adult. Not a man child. 85% of the country has probably got mental health issues at the moment due to us living in near draconian restrictions.......

At times.

Ok I am going to take a slightly different tack here. If you are dipping into your savings on a regular basis to pay bills, then you are living above your means as a family. Either your wife needs to get a job, or you need to downsize. Possibly both. I would suggest that you start looking at how to do that before you start planning your divorce, but you can incorporate into it the idea that if you divorce then you will need two homes, each smaller than your current home. In other words, if you downsize now (before divorce) then pay attention to whether that home is something she can maintain on her own salary.

Also, you said your wife is always exhausted even though you take care of the children on your own regularly so that she has "breaks." I think you need to look into why she is so exhausted. Begin with what she does outside of her downtime. What household/childcare tasks can you take over? Also, given your relationship, I doubt she will be happy if you suggest she sees a doctor about her exhaustion, but if she is unable to work because she is too tired then that may prod her to see a doctor.

You say that you are trying to support your kids by giving them hugs and silly play. That is good but it's not really what good fathering is about, nor (in my opinion) is it what would help your wife. Get a notebook. In it, write the children's clothing and shoe sizes. Write the names and contact info of their doctors and dentists, and the dates of their last annual medical exams and last dental cleanings. Write down a quick summary of some essential medical history: their allergies to medication, if they have any, whether there were any problems with the pregnancy or birth, if they have had any major medical problems or surgeries. Write the name and contact information for their schools. That's the beginning. Plan to fill this book with additional information of the kind that constitutes material caregiving for the children. Then begin taking some of that burden off of your wife. When they have their next annual doctor appointment, plan into your schedule to attend with her. After their dentist visit, ask how things went. When she has her next doctor's visit, try to be available so you can pick up the kids from school.

It is not uncommon for fathers of young kids to leave the day-to-day care to their wives, because career-building happens at the same time of life as when children are young, it's a time when dads feel the need to work as hard as possible to afford the best income for their family, and it's also a time in a career that it is easy to get ejected from your job if you don't put out your absolute best performance. Some marriages recover from it and others don't. I have been through it, and although I really resented it at the time (and still do, to some extent) I can now also see it from my husband's point-of-view that he was afraid if he got laid off then we would be unable to support the children. I think (personally) that one factor in whether marriages recover from this, is whether the family resources are balanced between husband and wife. My money is your money, we both have a say in how our lives are planned, that kind of thing. Although it sounds as if you were not hands-on with the children, you do mention that you wanted to live up north while your wife wanted to live down south. She got the location she preferred. That does count, actually, in the balance of resources, and it's a big thing, since as you mention, your own support network is in the north. Admit your faults but don't allow your good points to be treated as "nothings" in the discussion of why things are as they are. Your wife does not have to stay married to you (and it sounds like she won't) but, in the breakup, she does need to be fair to you as you need to be fair to her.

In my opinion, moving back north would be an abandonment of your children. If there is any kind of emergency for them, having their father nearby can make a material difference to the outcome. The presence of supportive fathers is statistically associated with kids avoiding drugs, avoiding teenage pregnancy, school success, all kinds of good things for your children. Whatever your internal resources, you need to dig down deep and access them so you can be the father your children need.

That's a good point about emergencies. When my youngest needed to go to A&E one evening when he was around 8, I was easily able to take my elder son who was only about 10 to his dad's on my way to the hospital with pjs/school uniform, so he had a smooth night's sleep and was back at school no disruption the next day, whilst me and his little brother were stuck in til the next afternoon. That sort of backup is critical. Quite aside from being near enough to get to hospital if god forbid either child is seriously ill or injured. Imagine how desperate and abandoned your wife would feel in those situations.

And there’s no reason why you couldn’t see your children in the week if you were to stay local to them. Can’t reiterate enough how much of a bad idea it is for you to move away.

Thanks again for all the posts here (aloris - really appreciate your extensive post - a lot of stuff on there I simply have not paid attention to as I have been focussing on one thing rather than the extensive home admin).

OP, do not move far away from your children

Your kids will not care if you have a little flat and that's all. They will know you are round the corner.

If you move 200 miles way you may as well move to Mars in a child's eyes. 10 miles is a 100 miles to a child.

When they are older teens/uni age, then you can move.

For now proximity is key!

Also for you. You might not be able to see them all the time but you will know they are near and feel connected.

won't happen of course weeks will be missed and you will lose your connection with them

Yep all sounds so sadly and depressingly familiar!

show them love hugs, be silly with them. We have sleep overs in each of our rooms at the weekend with the kids

This is NOT true parenting op - it's being a Disney dad! A fun uncle.

While the term generally refers to separated dads it applies to resident uninvolved dads too

Please read this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/fathers.com/featured-resource-center-page/dont-be-a-disney-dad-guest-blog/amp/

And this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/she-divorced-me-i-left-dishes-by-the-sinkbb_9055288/amp

And this

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/26/gender-wars-household-chores-comic

You're expecting her within 6 months to forgive what sounds like several YEARS of apathy, uninvolved parenting and her having to cover the bulk of the chores, childcare AND family's mental load. You should be prepared I would say to put at least 18 months of genuine, focused effort into your marriage and your family before making any permanent decisions. Frankly it's the least you can do

But what can I do if I am working 10 hour days Monday to Friday. Cant really quit . Even with my salary, most months I have to take money out of my savings to cover house running costs. So I have to keep doing what I am doing.

There's a LOT you both could have changed before now on the financial side to be honest. With 2 young dc a 4 bed is frankly unnecessary - unless one of you pushed for this then you are both to blame for overextending yourselves. A 2 bed would have been fine until the dc reached an age they needed their own room or even a 3 bed. This would have greatly reduced bills too.

It's a choice to work those hours, it's a choice to work in a demanding job and it's a choice how you behave when you aren't at work too.

Your presence is more important to your dc than you being your "person I want to be" your dc HAVE to come first. Considering you've been a father 7 years you shouldn't really need to be told this but apparently you do. I can well imagine this is a source of great frustration to your wife too.

Are you only changing the things she and the counsellor have identified and specified or have you done ANYTHING to go - from your perspective - above and beyond? Because you have making up to do!

Tbh I get the sense you're punishing her for not agreeing to move back up north - and by default also punishing your dc

Moving that far if you split will effectively be you abandoning your dc. You won't be able to attend school events, hobby events, special days in weekdays, they'll be KNACKERED doing all that travelling which in all likelihood means their mother will be dealing with the resultant cranky and irritable behaviour. When they reach teen stage and you can no longer force them to have contact they prefer to be nearer their friends and their locale and won't want to see you due to the inconvenience and if you haven't lost them before then you very likely will then. You'll be as pp said limiting severely her options for work as you won't be providing actual parenting just a weekend visit.

You don't seem actually that bothered about being a dad.

My ex as soon as we split lost interest in our dd. I foolishly pushed and pushed for contact and even facilitated and paid for it alone until I could no longer physically or financially manage, at which point within a year all contact had ended he wasn't even phoning.

We who are responding have seen time and time again...

Men not being fully involved fathers and husbands/partners

The wife/partner becomes resentful and the relationship is negatively impacted

The man only really notices when intimacy is stopped

The man then makes a cursory and half hearted effort to "help" more at home - it's not help! It's YOUR home and YOUR family too even if wife is Sahm that DOESN'T mean everything home related is her responsibility 24/7 365 days a year! It also doesn't mean it's fair to cast her as "bad cop" with the kids all the time and only be a "Disney dad" only dealing with/bothering with the fun stuff

After a few months the man goes "I tried" and then gives up! Sometimes throwing in an affair for good measure

Marriage ends and man BARELY Bothers with having dc eow, frequently cancels, swaps weekends last min etc and when they do have the dc they let the dc run wild eating crap, having late nights and no discipline and mum has to deal with the fallout

IF contact is maintained (huge stats on how unlikely this is) as dc get older they realise dad is actually pretty useless and not a proper parent and don't want to spend time with him.

Contact with dc disappears and kids feel abandoned

It's often repeated on here and I've seen it so many times in real life too.

Also the men tend to blame the mum for "stopping me seeing my kids" when the vast majority of the time it's down to their actions, their lack of effort as parents

My dd is 20 now, it's been utterly heartbreaking seeing the way her fathers abandonment has affected her and I wish to god I had not pushed for that contact initially because it was blindingly obvious he couldn't give a shit! She was younger than yours and therefore young enough to have forgotten him.

I've since come to know other family's where the parents have split and I've learned

Ideal -

Dad stays local, has as much contact as possible, isn't a Disney dad, is involved and engaged and has a good relationship with dc

2nd best -

Dad vanishes and dc learn to cope without them, don't miss what they have never really had

Worst

Dad makes an effort to APPEAR to still be in dcs lives but doesn't really make a true effort, dips in and out of their lives as it suits them inc moving far away and having regular but minimal contact, doesn't parent is a Disney dad/fun uncle type, isn't reliable and isn't there whenever they need them - which can be midweek term time!

How would abandoning your kids not lead to you being depressed/more depressed? I don't understand that at all

I suffer from severe mental illness (ocd agoraphobia as well as depression and anxiety) and have been very ill for the past 15 years, at NO POINT have I not considered what is best for dd.

At one time when I was very ill as in barely functioning she lived with a relative and I visited daily and spoke to her on phone twice a day. During this time I still would "tell her off" if needed or say she needed to behave better over something and that she needed to be respectful and well behaved for the people caring for her. When I was able to have her home the temptation is to make it all fun and nice but that's not what a good parent does that doesn't serve her.

Not being her parent? Unthinkable!

She is away studying just now as an adult child and I miss her like crazy - and that's even though she texts/messages a dozen times a day and calls most days!

And yes antidepressants nowadays CAN be used long term, DON'T Zombify you (a few may make you drowsy for first week or so until your body adjusts) and can make you far more able to cope with life in general - I'd honestly be dead if it weren't for such meds!

Regarding where you are - when I split from my ex we were living somewhere neither of us really knew anyone (he was army) but I stayed at least initially as I wanted to make it easier for dd to see her dad, that as far as I was concerned was a sacrifice worth making and I stayed there 4 years. I was then involved in a serious car accident and ex was utterly useless and i needed more support and so moved back to near my parents (glasgow area) ex was mad which was ridiculous as he was due to be posted anyway and right enough he was posted 3 months later to other side of country from where we were but to a place it was actually easier to get dd to him from glasgow it being a good transport hub than it would have been to travel from where we were living when we split. Wherever I'd lived eventually he was going to be far away from us potentially even overseas and again glasgow has a major airport it would have been far easier to get to him if that had happened.

He managed to make me feel guilty for this is why I ended up DOING All the travelling with dd (so taking her to dads, then coming back same day or only 1 night stopover, then going and getting her and bringing her back) AND paying for it all (which is logistically a nightmare too!)

I made friends in the first area through work, through mums at school gate etc I made the effort for dds sake

Kids that age don't give a stuff about fancy houses or gardens!

They DO care if they have genuinely loving and engaged parents who prioritise the kids needs above the adults wants

True about emergencies too. When I had my accident my ex thought he'd been oh so helpful by collecting dd from school (after I had to tell him which school - she'd been there almost a year! And what time at) and bringing her to me at hospital - where I was still awaiting x-rays etc he thought he'd been AMAZING I ended up staying with a friend when initially discharged as I couldn't have cared for dd alone. That's what informed my decision to move, that even with an emergency he didn't properly step up

a lot of stuff on there I simply have not paid attention to as I have been focussing on one thing rather than the extensive home admin

I suspected as much hence my 2 last links

My now ex fil was married before he married ex's mum, he bought a place around the corner from the family home, paid half the mortgage on the family home until the youngest was 18, paid maintenance of a decent amount (in the days when there was not even a hint of csa) and his kids from that marriage were welcomed and frequently visited the home my ex grew up in. He has a great relationship with all his kids cos he was an actual parent.

This is partly why it was such a shock to me AND my ex's own family when he behaved as he did following our split, it was far from the example he had been shown.

Be more like my fil, not like my ex.

Be a father, not an acquaintance uncle figure in your own kids lives.

Be a true partner to your wife, just because she is a sahm doesn't mean all the family tasks and responsibilities are on her. That's patently unfair. Even working you can do your share. Plenty of us single mums have to!

@Graphista that is an amazing post, so well put!

Wonderful post @Graphista

👏

@Talith

I think you're having a "flight" reaction, in that it all seems so overwhelming you want to run away. It's understandable when you're miserable but in the nicest way I'm going to hand you a grip -- hands grip

I agree you need to do some work on your mental health, could you get some counselling perhaps?

If you move that far away you'll be repeating a damaging pattern of opting out of family life - just on a nuclear scale. And I don't think you would be happier in fact, when my kids are at their dads the house is so empty and quiet, I find it really unsettling. If I had that for a fortnight at a time I'd sink into myself and get into bad habits I think e.g. drink too much and not look after myself etc.

Anyway that's just me. I think the solution is so much easier than what you're proposing. You're talking about sledgehammers to crack nuts. If it comes to separation, go for two smaller houses, nearby, two happier parents, each getting time with kids and time to themselves to develop new interests and friendships and no yawning absences or ludicrous logistics to destroy everyone's free time.

This! Don't run away ffs

Op you are fortunate that you have been given incredible insight from some very knowledgeable posters, it seems a no brainer to up and leave and put such a huge distance between yourself and your children.

It will not work, and you will lose your children.

I do not know of any man who has abandoned their children other than men who have put their career first or they have moved to be closer to another woman.

Why leave if it is niether of these things?

I think all the posts above clearly illustrate that as as a rule of thumb, women are much nicer and better human beings than men.

And I think much of the rhetoric above should be taught in schools and especially young boys.

you do mention that you wanted to live up north while your wife wanted to live down south. She got the location she preferred. That does count, actually, in the balance of resources, and it's a big thing, since as you mention, your own support network is in the north. Admit your faults but don't allow your good points to be treated as "nothings" in the discussion of why things are as they are

This is terrible advice OP. If you want to ensure your marriage never recovers follow this. Your wife is the primary carer. She had built her support networks for her and her children where you both lived. You work long hours. Yet you argued that she should leave literally everything behind and all of her friendships, so that you, in your limited free time, could see more of your support networks. The fact that you were arguing for this with her and could not see what you were asking her to sacrifice, is probably one of the things she cannot forgive. You wanted her to move to be the primary carer, hardly see you and have no friends, but to have to start to slowly try to build friendships again, for her and her children, whilst you happily slotted back into your friendship and support groups. It was an incredibly selfish and blind thing to argue for. She must have felt completely unseen to you that you kept pressing for this. She must have
thought you cared nothing for her but only for yourself.

Your wife has already checked out of the marriage. You are the one wanting her to start to like you again. If you try to get her to see how ' 'generous' you were, by not 'making her' move, you will just remind her of your colossal selfishiness, and how completely invisible her and life and what you you were asking her to give up, was to you.

I'm going to be blunt here. We only have your side of the story and you still come across as a very selfish man who only sees things from your perspective. I suspect this is why your marriage has failed. You need to take a good hard look at yourself to even begin to have any hope of recovering your marriage. You need to get to understand your wife and what her life is like and what she feels about it and what she does.

My exH lives 4000 miles away from his DC. He sees them at school holidays and Facetimes them regularly. He lives there largely I think for his mental health, he found life and working in this country brought him down. But so does being away from his children. He is now married to a woman who lives in his country but is from a completely different country 1000s of miles in the opposite direction, so I don't know what I see happening in the long run. The other day I heard him complaining to DS about work and it was all exactly the same gripes and whinges he had working here! He owns a house here, could literally walk straight into a job in the UK (a shortage area and he's very experienced), so all he's done is complicate his life but end up in the same situation somewhere else. I mean it's sunny but...he didn't solve anything by living so far away, he brought all his problems with him and created a whole bunch more as well.

@GravityFalls Well said, this should be a really useful viewpoint for the OP 👏

If you move away your children will feel you've left them. You may loose them entirely on an emotional level.

Even if you are doing 10 hour days you could still do bedtime a couple of evenings a week and spend every other weekend with them.

I appreciate you'd prefer to move away, but you have kids who will need you even more as their parents separate.

Are you still in counselling? If so use it to ask your wife if she truly sees you too getting back together.

And if you do separate, if your wife continues not to be in paid work then you will need to sell the house and each buy something smaller.

@eric7 I don't mean to kick you when you're down at all here but the fact you're making out your only choice would be to move 200 miles away from your children, shows that you can't have a very good relationship with them at the moment. Perhaps this is the underlying issue for your wife. When you have children, the idea is you are no longer selfishly putting yourself first and should naturally put their needs before your own. You clearly don't do this and personally I think I'd have a hard time if my husband was this way with our DC as my love grows for him when I see how good a father he is. You've obviously worked hard at financial security and that's great but being a present father for your children is incredibly important too.

I think @aloris has given the best advice so far on this thread.

I think you’re getting a hard time here OP because you are a man and there a some posters who will not see past that and you will always be in the wrong.

I don’t get why you would move away at all, but you’ve had plenty of advice about that.

I actually think that it’s extremely stressful being the main breadwinner and you obviously can’t afford your current lifestyle, your wife needs to take some responsibility for that. I have never understood why some men are forced into this position by women who refuse to pull their weight financially and then “check out” of the marriage because the DH was too busy trying to maintain their lifestyle to help much around the house.

I have never understood why some men are forced into this position by women who refuse to pull their weight financially and then “check out” of the marriage because the DH was too busy trying to maintain their lifestyle to help much around the house.
Surprised this needs an explanation on a site full of mums, but here goes.

The wife works in a child-unfriendly job: if she stays in that job, the children will have to be in paid outside care from the early morning to the evening. So they decide as a couple that it would be better for the wife to be a SAHM.

The husband starts working ten-hour days and does not have time to help her with her duties run his own household along with his wife. His wife tries to adapt and also earn money by a new means. But as her husband will not do any pickups at all, she can only do quite poorly paid jobs (these often having shorter/more flexible hours). If she gets a job with longer hours and thus requiring childcare, the cost of the childcare uses up all the extra pay. She could work more, but they would not be better off as a result.

(Some of this may not apply precisely to OP, but you get the gist.)

I think you’re getting a hard time here OP because you are a man

Its not because he is a man. Its because he is behaving in a stereotypical male pattern way in thinking he can bale on his wife and children because he is finding things hard, and needs to 'rebuild himself' without appearing to think or care about the disastrous impact this will have on their mental health, as well as practically and financially Its not uncommon for a man to do this. It is very rare for a woman to do this.

He's actually getting an easier time because he is a man. I can only imagine the reaction a women would get if she talked of abandoning her children as she family life tough and needed to 'rebuild herself'.
It is very rare for women to do this and they get a whole load of hate if they do. OP is actually benefiting from the fact that he is a man, and we are used to men walking out on their families when the going gets tough, so he knows he can contemplate this and not get the hate in RL that a woman would.

@sortingout 👏

@ravenmum

I feel anxious now when I am around her. I feel constantly low and almost on the brink of tears sometimes. Have you been to see your GP? It sounds like you are currently making decisions from a position of depression and hopelessness. When your mind is altered by depression, you simply cannot imagine things being better - so you can't make properly informed, rational decisions. Depressed people believe truly that their children will be fine without them, even if they would never think that when well. Speak to your GP if you have not done so already and see if they suggest anti-depressants.

Agree with this. Wanting to move so far away from your kids is totally abnormal if you love them so it looks like something deeper is going on here. Seek treatment for depression @Eric7 before you make any decisions about your marriage. It seems you made your wife responsible for your happiness and fulfilment and now things are going through a rough patch you see your wife and family as a tool that is no longer fulfilling its purpose.

But your wife and kids are human beings, not instruments created to fulfil you (and no one is capable of filling that void, only living a values based life with deeper spiritual meaning can do that). True love is not selfish, it's about sacrifice and self giving when the occasion calls for it, not just enjoying good times.

I agree with others that moving away is a very bad idea for the children. You will be busy enough with work and seeing them to not have to overly worry about how much support you have close by. If you have a weekend off every two, you can always head up North to see family and friends.

I think your marriage sounds dead to me. I would give your wife one last chance to make changes. It sounds like you have but she just isn’t prepared to, which indicates that her love for you has gone.

There is a possibility that she is now using you for financial reasons.

I’d give it 6 months, have the chat to really get the message across what is on the line and then see where you go from there. The kids will much prefer two parents close by than a big house and one parent 200 miles away. Whatever you do, don’t do that to them. They need both parents where it is possible.

I also agree that he is getting a hard time. His wife is not blameless in this and yet seems to be getting lots of sympathy.