June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I am stopping now though as daughter keeps saying ‘feels good doesn’t it’ I’ve told her to slow down but she’s right it’s only clothes, duvets and books (most of which came from charity shops) we aren’t throwing anything sentimental away and I can actually walk to my wardrobe now

Decluttering is also a really good exercise in emotional detachment. Those moments when we feel a bit bad about throwing something away which supposedly has "meaning". Well, bollocks to all that.

My mum used to try and offload all sorts of crap onto me. And that thing about presents? My sister was a master of gifting really shitty presents. I never really understood it until it was explained to me about it being part of the typical narc behaviour. My children found it hurtful but as they got older would make a joke out of "what crap has aunty wrapped up for us this year?"

Back to emotional detachment for a moment - I realise now that this takes a long time, but once you get there, it's a revelation. I can put my hand on heart and say I do not love any of my family of origin. I'm deeply shocked by this revelation, but not surprised.

I’ve reached out to a friendly cousin in Canada that I’ve never met. He was an only child and his mum didn’t talk to my mum. He seems really pleasant normal and nice and my mother always made a big song and dance of NOT giving me his address etc well I managed to track him down on Facebook a year ago - he’s my age. I’ve reached out as after a year of pleasant messages and him saying happy birthday etc I’ve said ‘would you like to meet on zoom and meet my kids’ hopefully we can set it up. He just seems normal his mum left for Canada when she was 17 and had a life out there but died at aged 47. My mum didn’t keep in touch with him and hated her sister - spot a family dynamic - so ill keep it neutral and civil and friendly and see if we can make a connection there

@Sicario

Decluttering is also a really good exercise in emotional detachment. Those moments when we feel a bit bad about throwing something away which supposedly has "meaning". Well, bollocks to all that.

My mum used to try and offload all sorts of crap onto me. And that thing about presents? My sister was a master of gifting really shitty presents. I never really understood it until it was explained to me about it being part of the typical narc behaviour. My children found it hurtful but as they got older would make a joke out of "what crap has aunty wrapped up for us this year?"

Back to emotional detachment for a moment - I realise now that this takes a long time, but once you get there, it's a revelation. I can put my hand on heart and say I do not love any of my family of origin. I'm deeply shocked by this revelation, but not surprised.

This is true. My sister used to wait until I was with my parents (even if it was 6 weeks after my birthday) and send a huge bouquet of flowers to the house and phone and wish me happy birthday 😂she had to do it in public or pass them through my parents or something. She was the golden girl and my parents were also like so thoughtful so kind. But she would demand to be put on speaker phone to wish me happy birthday so everyone could here her - very weird. She’s sent expensive presents 2 years too small for them or something. My parents give me nothing not even a card.

Then it’s a dilemma what do I do? I’m thinking of sending them a card this year saying ‘wishing you a happy and stress free Christmas 2021 - we have massively decluttered and reduced our possessions to make our lives more sustainable - we therefore do not want any gifts and are giving recycled and homemade gifts to our family and friends. We are offering our time to our friends for baby sitting for free, running errands etc kind regards team IAAP. Then I’m going to recycle some of my books and leave them on the doorstep

Thank you all for your support it’s much appreciated.
My ability to go easy on myself be kind to myself is definitely difficult.
I’ve been so well trained to put her needs ahead of mine. That is what decades of parentification does though doesn’t it!
It’s always been about her needs and some of those needs were for me to not be happier, better … in fact anything ‘more than’ her.
In other words ‘take care of me darling but don’t dare overshadow me’.
I think that’s where the self sabotage comes in, the mammalian brain says it not safe to stick your head above the parapet.
I guess me writing something I didn’t feel or mean in a text to her was such a shock.
She is like a spider feeding off her young and I see dsis and to some extent gb caught in her web.
I can’t get too close or I will become trapped again.
I had been so much more emotionally available when I blocked her to my kids and to myself .
It’s a rocky path and I’ll continue to stumble my way through it.
I’m just disappointed I fell into line once again.
You are all very strong and so very brave!

Therealsmithfield

I have always found the following to be spot on:-

"There's no middle ground of ordinary normal humanity for narcissists. They can't tolerate the least disagreement. In fact, if you say, "Please don't do that again it hurts," narcissists will turn around and do it again harder to prove that they were right the first time; their reasoning seems to be something like "I am a good person and can do no wrong; therefore, I didn't hurt you and you are lying about it now..." sorry, folks, I get lost after that. Anyhow, narcissists are habitually cruel in little ways, as well as big ones, because they're paying attention to their fantasy and not to you, but the bruises on you are REAL, not in your imagination. Thus, no matter how gently you suggest that they might do better to change their ways or get some help, they will react in one of two equally horrible ways: they will attack or they will withdraw. Be wary of wandering into this dragon's cave narcissists will say ANYTHING, they will trash anyone in their own self-justification, and then they will expect the immediate restoration of the status quo. They will attack you (sometimes physically) and spew a load of bile, insult, abuse, contempt, threats, etc., and then well, it's kind of like they had indigestion and the vicious tirade worked like a burp: "There. Now I feel better. Where were we?" They feel better, so they expect you to feel better, too. They will say you are nothing, worthless, and turn around immediately and say that they love you. When you object to this kind of treatment, they will say, "You just have to accept me the way I am. (God made me this way, so God loves me even if you are too stupid to understand how special I am.)"

Accepting them as they are (and staying away from them entirely) is excellent advice. The other "punishment" narcissists mete out is banishing you from their glorious presence this can turn into a farce, since by this point you are probably praying to be rescued, "Dear God! How do I get out of this?" The narcissist expects that you will be devastated by the withdrawal of her/his divine attention, so that after a while a few weeks or months (i.e., the next time the narcissist needs to use you for something) -- the narcissist will expect you to have learned your lesson and be eager to return to the fold. If you have learned your lesson, you won't answer that call".

Just popping on very quickly: I did something today which I have rarely been able to do before.

'D'M phoned at the crack of dawn. I'm home alone as DC are with XH. She knows this. "We are going to pop over this morning for coffee? Does that suit? I'm out with the dog at the moment. See you at 11."

I was caught off guard - didn't really know what to say. Pulled on my big girl pants and called back. "The DC will be back later and I'm sure they'd love to see you. Can we make it Saturday instead?" She pushed to come today AND Saturday. I said "no, Saturday suits me better."

They won't come, I know they won't. Because Saturday would be on my terms, not hers / theirs.

I'm very proud of myself.

Well done for rebuffing her and laying down a firm boundary as you did. That will not go down well with then at all; disordered of thinking people do not like others setting boundaries.

Your mother has a brass neck, all this about does that suit you (well no) then stating that she will see you at 11.00!.

I would also be keeping your kids well away from your mother. She is truly not an emotionally safe person to be around.

Hi, may I ask for some help/advice please. Ive posted previously on here but I've never managed to get myself out. I'm struggling to go low contact as I get accused of ignoring/ falling out/ causing problems but I can't carry on with how things are. I've tried no contact before but it ended up with my grandparents not talking to me and other family members saying I was killing my mother through a broken heart.

She lied to me last week over something which hurt, she did something she knew would hurt me then lied to cover it. I haven't called her out on it or spoken to her since but I have spoken to my grandma who would have told her. If I don't make some form of contact she'll say I'm ignoring her even if she hasn't contacted me. I was thinking of phoning her with my husband present for support and just keeping it very non-subject and not acknowledging what she's done. If I did say something it would end up being my fault she lied somehow or she didn't lie and I'd have to apologise.

How do you manage to get a relationship with your mother to a place where they are ok with you only talking every now and then please?

Thank you @AttilaTheMeerkat - she used to have a habit of calling and saying "can we come for coffee on X day?" I would say "I have plans, how about Y or Z day?" She would huff and puff and complain how busy I was (I really wasn't, I just had a couple of things on each week), so I would change my plans on the X day to accommodate her.

Then she would cancel on the day, or else come for 20 minutes. Currently the flying monkey is on holiday (so she can't go there) and my other sibling has her DD's birthday today, so they're busy. Hence why she's reached to the bottom of the barrel and phoned me.

She huffed and puffed this morning, but, considering the last face to face conversation was the "Brexit trump your divorce the pandemic", I don't want to be here on my own hosting them. I would prefer the back up of my DP, and the distraction of my DC - I hear what you say about keeping DC away from her as she is emotionally unsafe - don't I know it. She said a couple of years ago to my eldest (he was probably 8? I was mid divorce) "speak to me and your grandfather - we are stable. Our relationship is stable. Our marriage is stable." It was around Christmas time. He was confused as to the stable Jesus was born in and what she was talking about.

It was very very bizarre - they don't get left alone with her. Ever. And they won't.

@Justrealised

Hi, may I ask for some help/advice please. Ive posted previously on here but I've never managed to get myself out. I'm struggling to go low contact as I get accused of ignoring/ falling out/ causing problems but I can't carry on with how things are. I've tried no contact before but it ended up with my grandparents not talking to me and other family members saying I was killing my mother through a broken heart.

She lied to me last week over something which hurt, she did something she knew would hurt me then lied to cover it. I haven't called her out on it or spoken to her since but I have spoken to my grandma who would have told her. If I don't make some form of contact she'll say I'm ignoring her even if she hasn't contacted me. I was thinking of phoning her with my husband present for support and just keeping it very non-subject and not acknowledging what she's done. If I did say something it would end up being my fault she lied somehow or she didn't lie and I'd have to apologise.

How do you manage to get a relationship with your mother to a place where they are ok with you only talking every now and then please?

Hi @Justrealised. Your post really rings bells with me and I'm also trying to (again) go very low contact with my 'D'M / a flying monkey. This habit of gaslighting - doing something wrong and then denying it - is a pattern of behaviour, and Attila has outlined something which I think you should read about 4 posts below. When you finally lay down your boundaries and say "no", it really puts their noses out of joint and their reaction can be vicious, sometimes physical.

Can I ask - why do you think you need to be the one to make that call? I used to apologise all the time for my behaviour. I realised that was through conditioning - the irony was it wasn't necessary for me to be the first one to say sorry.... in my family dynamic nor in my marriage....

@Justrealised You asked: How do you manage to get a relationship with your mother to a place where they are ok with you only talking every now and then please?

For me personally - I moved to the other side of the world. Drastic, I know, but my mother had literally driven me to being suicidal and I knew for the sake of mental health I need to get as far away from her as humanly possible.

That was nearly 30 years ago, when I was 25. Since then, I've only gone to see her (she can't travel such a long distance anymore) twice, staying on average a month at a time. The last time I was there was 12 years ago, and I actually cut my visit short by 3 weeks because of the way she was acting. I'm the only girl out of 3 children and because she is as sexist as all get out, I'm the one she has always burdened with her emotions - and that started from when I was about 11 ...she just doesn't do it to my two brothers. I'm talking about issues that really need her to be talking to a professional, both a psychiatrist and psychologist, but she is of the generation that sees mental health problems as something to be ashamed of.

I was diagnosed as bipolar when I was 23...with the help of my psychiatrist I decided at 25 that I could no longer deal with both mine and my mother's emotional problems and that I had to put myself first because my mother never had and never would. I ring her on average every month or so and keep the conversation as bland and general as possible. She still says things that really hurt and are quite horrible - a recent example is that she once again blamed me for my father going off with a OW when I was 21 - but the distance, the fact that I don't actually have to see her and that I get to decide when we interact, helps a great deal.

@MahMahMahMahCorona thank you for your reply. If I don't make the call or message, they'll think I'm not talking to her and then I'll get the guilt trips and it'll get very nasty. You're right I shouldn't have to. I just want an easy life.

I'm worried af the moment because the longer this goes on the worse It will be, it's crazy.

I understand what you mean about apologising all the time, I always do it, its just easier sometimes.

Getting to low contact is so incredibly difficult, you sound like you're making good progress. Did you bring the boundaries in all at once or gently please?

@noirchatsdeux thank you for the reply, my mum does this also with my brother. My dsil jokingly refers to him as "golden balls" because he doesn't get any of the stress or have any demands placed on him. My mum will just say "boys are like that".

I'd like to get to a place where I have control over how much we interact, I think it will really help. I wish we could move away from it all.

@Justrealised - it's so interesting how much we have been conditioned into the cycle of behaviour. You say "if i don't make the call or message, they'll think I'm not talking to her and then I'll get the guilt trips and it'll get very nasty. You're right I shouldn't have to. I just want an easy life."

What it took me a time to realise is that they used to always consider that I was a drama Queen - my eldest sister in fact said once "I can't deal with anymore of your drama." I had just confided in her that a family friend (my fathers age) had tried to sexually assault me. What I realise now is that they would in fact call, I would have my barriers up, they would find the tiniest open little crack and lever it open so I would confide, and then they would shriek my confidences over the parapets to whoever would listen. You name it - my PTSD diagnosis, details of my divorce, the difficulties I was having financially - it was music to their ears when I would share it with them.

It's taken time and I went low contact in 2018, with the help of this board, and no contact in 2019, then pandemic and the boundaries were perhaps a little helped by lockdown, and now we have come out the other side I realise they've been trying to stomp all over them again - my 'D'M managed to get me to confide in her (I am pregnant and for the first time she didn't tell anyone after we told her, so she reeled me back in....) about something really important. Then my flying monkey sister alluded to it about 6 weeks later, minimised it, trod all over it. Disgraceful behaviour.

So I'm edging back into my titanium cave, it is so hard. Hence why I posted this morning: I wouldn't "normally" be able to be so strong and firm, I wouldn't normally be able to say "no". Mother also invited me and DP (and then there will be newborn - 4 week old...) for Christmas. I said "no". Felt very proud of myself then too.

I don't often apologise these days to them either - I am really mindful that I have an opinion, my voice deserves to be heard, and that I and my opinion are valid.

So in answer to your question? It's still work in progress. It's hard. I've obviously got too close / allowed them to get too close again (I put a long post up on here in the last week or so, asking for further support), and now it's time to remind myself just why I am protecting myself from their toxicity.

I hope this helps.

@Sicario

Decluttering is also a really good exercise in emotional detachment. Those moments when we feel a bit bad about throwing something away which supposedly has "meaning". Well, bollocks to all that.

My mum used to try and offload all sorts of crap onto me. And that thing about presents? My sister was a master of gifting really shitty presents. I never really understood it until it was explained to me about it being part of the typical narc behaviour. My children found it hurtful but as they got older would make a joke out of "what crap has aunty wrapped up for us this year?"

Back to emotional detachment for a moment - I realise now that this takes a long time, but once you get there, it's a revelation. I can put my hand on heart and say I do not love any of my family of origin. I'm deeply shocked by this revelation, but not surprised.

That’s really interesting as I have been really struggling mentally with trying to declutter/minimise, constant triggers, so much sadness & grief wrapped up in cute little ornaments that have been in a box, hidden away for years but yet letting go feels impossible. I am doing IFS/parts therapy, I believe I have a wounded child part who is struggling to let go of many things, I decided to keep some items but revisit to see how I am feeling again about keeping or giving them to the charity shop, I have so much stuff that I have surrounded myself with over the years, shopped as a way to deal with the trauma they all inflicted on me. I am happy to say that I had no problem with letting go of the see no evil, hear so evil, speak no evil, 3 monkeys ornament my mom gave me, I wonder why she gave me that?! I can also say that through therapy I am starting to feel less guilt & feel OK with being no contact with my mom & sibling, it’s been around 8 years now, recently she tried to get one of her flying monkeys to do her bidding, asking me for my address so she could send me old photos from my childhood. I thanked my flying monkey for checking about my address (they have strict instructions not to give it out) I advised them not to get drawn in with regards to what my mom wants. No address given & no call either as I believe my mom has my phone number, like the last time I got back in touch after years of no contact, it was the same thing, she puts the feelers out, trying to get me to get into contact with her, my biggest regret is ever getting back in touch with her then, I’m not making the same mistake again, I know how she operates, I’ve played this game before, I’m not playing it ever again.

@therealsmithfield

I have completely fallen off the wagon so to speak. It was my birthday and I knew I would get something and wasn’t dreading it like I usually am. When it arrived it took me by surprise because it was actually quite thoughtful. Or was it? One present was the exact same as I had sent my dsis for her birthday the week before and then the same gift also I get each year ( since my dsis mentioned it). So actually it was dsis thoughts not hers. It isn’t about the gift though, a card would suffice I’m not precious about my birthday at all. I was stupid though and unblocked her. I told myself that I was merely unblocking to thank her because that was what I wanted to do . She replied to say it was so good to hear from me. I think I felt so grateful for not being questioned and queried over my absence . In one stupid moment I wrote ‘love you mum’… what? how? Why? Why am I still offering myself up like a sacrificial lamb. I didn’t feel love in that moment , just an overwhelming need to comply. In response she sent me a thumbs up… she then asked for a photo of dd as we were off to her match . So we are back in the loop of her needs and I put myself there. I’ve noticed my mood has plummeted. I’ve let myself down. Abandoned my own needs yet again to please her and dsis. This then cascaded into friendships. I have a massive triangulation going on with two friends and because I stepped out of my role with them they have been trying to push me back in to that role. Well one in particular has and the other who was supposedly my best friend has sat back. I feel consumed with bad feelings and it’s difficult to really be able to explain to anyone in RL the nuances of what and how this affects me. I’m not even sure myself other than the self abuse continues and now my mood has plummeted also. Thanks for listening.

I know these feelings & the pain they bring, I’m so sorry you are going through this. I think we need to see it as a move to installing boundaries, recognising what is going on is good, knowing that you need to take care of your own needs now, it’s OK to do this, don’t feel guilty or ashamed to do this, you matter.

@MahMahMahMahCorona thank you so much for your post and help. Congratulations too!

What your sister said was horrible.

You sound incredibly strong to me, I hope I can be as strong.

Despite all our families being so different, they are uncanny in the feelings they provoke.

Not a day goes by when I don’t think about them and the situation it’s like a disease eating me alive. I won’t confuse the situation with my sister and even though she now has a difficult relationship they don’t treat her the same. My sister knows we have Covid - she will tell my parents - she’s digging as I don’t mention them and they probably don’t mention me. I’m starting to focus on my little family and I feel guilty - they don’t want any contact, they want me to ‘move on’ and get over it - they don’t care about us so why are you caring about them? But I’ve had 45 years of it. I’ve tried thinking of them as dead. Or tried to think of them as really ill but they are neither. Everyone else’s situation seems to have so many echoes of my own emotions.

@IAAP - I think it's a certain type of grief we go through, because we were so convinced for a time that our family was "normal". The more I realise over time that actually what I experienced was far from normal, the only process available to me certainly, is to grieve the family dynamic I honestly thought I had.

Well done for decluttering. I moved house last August and it was a huge sense of relief to get rid of the old, heavy, dark, cumbersome furniture, rugs, paintings, trinkets etc my DParents had "gifted" me over the years. Particularly as I had had to pretty much ask for permission to get any of these items out of my house prior to the move. I tend to buy from charity shops or furniture recycling centres these days - you might imagine their view on that. Oh the irony.

@crispsarny thank you for the validation. It’s very much appreciated. Never sure if I am being intentionally unkind to myself as a means of punishment for not being good enough.
Logically of course I know I am but these overpowering emotions come from ok that dark child like place and some how the adult me and child me have to meet in the middle and come-exist.

Yes @IAAP we do share the same emotions because all of us have equally been neglected or been taught to put our needs aside in lieu of our narcissistic parent. Somehow meeting our own needs and putting ourselves first feels viscerally wrong

Currently I wish she would do something dreadful to me to help me cope with not wanting a relationship with her but all the stuff she pulls now is all so low key and under the carpet that it makes me question myself .
If I was living close to her or had constant physical contact I think I would see it. But i don’t.

Out of interest is anyone else watching or has watched ‘maid’? I’m not at the end of it yesterday so not sure what else will be revealed regarding the mother daughter relationship BUT I’d be interested to know which parent you felt was more damaging. For me it is definitely the mother but the daughter seems blind to the impact her behaviour has had on her.

I’m finding it very compelling to watch.

Ps sorry for the typos

Hello everyone . I have dipped my toe in here a couple of times over the years.
Like many of you here I was the scapegoat in my highly dysfunctional family. I have been NC with my emotionally abusive siblings. I maintain low contact with my highly narcissistic mother and enabling very elderly father.
After the scales fell from my eyes and I had a near total psychological collapse 3 years ago I asked for some space. I wasn't even meant to go no contact but they upped the abusive behaviour so much after I tried to draw a boundary I had no choice. I have had therapy and in a better place than I have been.

Fast forward to now - my BIL of my NS has been diagnosed with terminal cancer. My father who has early dementia is asking me to spend Christmas with the whole family according to BIL dying wishes. To have my kids there and be all together.

Talk about emotional pressure - I can't even contemplate it. How does it all fall to me to play the game. If they hated me so much in the family, and goaded and criticised my every move why is the family not complete enough now with me in it?

Hi acornfed

re your comments in quotemarks:-
"Fast forward to now - my BIL of my NS has been diagnosed with terminal cancer. My father who has early dementia is asking me to spend Christmas with the whole family according to BIL dying wishes. To have my kids there and be all together".

I would further block your father from being at all able to contact you in any way. Do not respond or further give your dad's wishes here any consideration whatsoever. The truism applies that if toxic parents are too toxic for YOU to deal with, its the same deal for your children as well.

Your father has and will continue to throw you under the bus for his onw ends; he as a bystander and his wife's enabler has also failed you utterly.

"Talk about emotional pressure - I can't even contemplate it. How does it all fall to me to play the game. If they hated me so much in the family, and goaded and criticised my every move why is the family not complete enough now with me in it?"

Well indeed. Just do not enter into their games.

It’s easy for us to give advice - I find it harder to take.
Could you zoom call with them on your terms? I wouldn’t go into the dragons lair ever again.

My parents (if they ever got in touch wouldn’t meet me in a coffee shop but want me to go to dinner at theirs I expect so they have control.

Protect the children.

I saw my parents today driving back from work - with eldest in the car - they pulled in behind us as we were driving through the town centre. We both have distinctive cars - I wonder if they recognised mine. I told DD that grandparents were behind and she laughed and said - don’t miss them at all. Laughed again and said what do we care if they are behind us - they turned off and we drove home carefully - checking behind us.

Lots of reasons to declutter the house and garage and get the car in the garage.