June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

@therealsmithfield we will. I love it when she tries to manipulate MM when she thinks he’s vulnerable. I can see it ALL now. Off to search out a hot toddy.

@IAAP you are doing really well. Stay strong. Counselling is hard and then you get to the other side. Hugs.

@IAAP what @therealsmithfield says is so right. We’re here for you. Take care.

Thanks everyone. I really appreciate having this as I don't off load in RL.

Lots of things are opening up in therapy. I'm a hoarder -massive eg hundreds of cookery books -reason my mother told me I was useless and couldn't cook -so I buy the books and then just don't use them. It all makes me feel ill. We have 4 guitars -don't even play! a £500 telescope I was given that I have never used.

It's all linked as is the fact that I'm either overweight or very thin. So food an issue too.

I want to learnt about the arts (my mum is an academic in this area) so I buy classics (novels etc ) but I bloody hate them (I'm dyslexic! and I loathe them but I can't get rid of them as I'm thinking -if I just knew more mozart she might love me. -Any one have this issue?

Sister rang last night -we don't get on and never had. Parents divided and ruled. She was ousted by them for about 18 months after having a go at them about Covid - I don't know the currently situation and I don't ask. I left it go to voicemail and it was just a blank message. Weird. So I rang her this morning and very civil neutral conversation eg 'What are you doing at half-term' -I've told her we have Covid. She told me that 'Mum and Dad been on holiday for 3 weeks -have you seen them since they got back a couple of weeks ago?' -I said no. And she said I suppose you aren't seeing them if you have covid. I said no. She asked if I was talking to them I fobbed the questions off but she is suspicious. I don't know how to tell her. They had us competing for affection for years -seeing one but not the other etc.

So issues -what do you do with hoarding issues? What do I do regarding my sister?
How do I explain the last year to her? I really don't know what to do if she asks for my address?
I've been on AD 4 days I'm hoping they kick in soon (normally takes me a week or so.........)

Hi all, I'm not sure if any of you remember me from a few months back.
I predict this will be a long post so thanks in advance to anyone reading but I could really do with your words of wisdom right now and I struggle to deal with this crazy situation.

If anyone remembers, I had had this realisation in Jan that I couldn't deal with/listen to/sort out/try to sort out my mother and sisters intractable issues any more and that I was DONE. I have two small children and a full-time job and it was this moment, the first real moment of clarity in my life, where I started to explore why I am made to feel responsible for my mothers happiness despite the fact that nothing I ever do is good enough anyway.

I was in this cycle where I was always in the bad books for not having done something and I just reached my capacity. I developed a sort of compassion fatigue and realised - with the help of psychology literature, this forum and others like it - that these patterns that played out were actually really common. I learnt that narcissism has various forms, that trauma is inherited, that there are roles in families like scapegoat (me) and golden child (my sister) and that parentified children are those who were made to feel responsible for their parents happiness or wellbeing from a young age.

This was me! I had this lightbulb moment and honestly its been a journey of complete awakening since. I've gone to therapy, I've become a better mother myself, I've been working on my own trauma (severe neglect, abuse, domestic violence) and at various points I tried to - not hold my mother accountable per se - but try to get her to realise that there are patterns behind our terrible relationship, that while I understood a lot of the way she behaved was a result of her own trauma, it was time now (she's only in her early 60s) to try to work through it so we could have a healthier relationship. I stupidly thought this "Out in the open" approach might work. It did not.

What transpired over the next few months was me being branded an ungrateful, mentally unstable bully. I had my sister embark on a campaign of abusive and angry emails and voicemails (having heard sob stories from my mother). I had uncles and aunts who live on the other side of the world and who have never been in contact with any of us, jump on the bandwagon and I was called a liar and completely invalidated and castigated at every turn. At first I tried to explain myself - shouting from the rooftops, "I was just..." , "I'm just very busy", "I have two small children", etc etc but I was met with total hostility so I shut down. I went NC with my mother and sister for a glorious and drama-free 3 months.

None of us live near eachother. My sister lives on another continent. My mother is alone in this country and I am her only next-of-kin and she has no friends or family. So I kept my line open just for that reason. I know for a fact she has had serious
depression/trauma/anxiety for decades but will not get treated. She is very vulnerable, but at the same time malicious. She is the eternal victim, both in her mind and in reality. She lives in abject poverty as a result of her terrible decisions with money and is in considerable debt.

All this I felt responsible for for my whole life, but it was a bottomless pit. Nothing I ever did to try to help was seen as good enough, so in the end I stopped. I had my own family to take care of, a career to build from the bottom up. I just got on with being a parent, and working, and being sick all the time (young kids, etc), housework...normal stuff but 24/7.

Then around July I noticed my mother was worse than normal: more negative, more confused, very strange. Even slightly negative towards the kids which was unheard of (its usually just me who is on the receiving end). It went on for a few weeks and eventually I persuaded her to see a doctor. When she did (after much cajoling) she was sent in for brain scans and at one point was under the care of a team of neurologists and psychologists in the hospital after they found "considerable damage to the brain that could indicate dementia". It might sound strange but I was relieved. I finally thought she might get the help and support she needs so that everyone would stop expecting me to provide it. At first the doctors were talking to me (actually - finally - after 40 years of trying to deal with my mother alone!!!) and said she will need specialist care!

But...then she just checked herself out of hospital (against their wishes), went home, and won't return. No supports, no doctors and I can't talk to her to determine what is going on.

She's as bad as ever. Can barely get a sentence out. Very defensive, very angry (with me, of course, not with my darling sister or anyone else). I am not in communication with anyone who is also in communication with her. As I said she has no family or friends, not one person. So I tried to call doctors but suddenly none of them would give me information. They said it's up to her to seek treatment, they can't do anything and now is the time for "family and friends to step in". Step in with what? I'm so confused! She has nobody except me and she won't tell me anything.

I know how this comes across, I know how it sounds, but I feel angry because yet again, whatever needs I had have been overshadowed by hers. Yet again nobody is listening to me and yet again I seem to be expected to have skills to take care of a woman whose issues are deeply complex - far too complex for me to deal with. One nurse was very curt with me and said "you're her daughter, its up to you from now on" ....

I don't know if any of you have seen Maid on Netflix but if you have, my situation would be very like that, different issues (and I am not a single mum and I have come out of it now) but the same dynamic, the same sort of guilt and responsibility. A mother who thinks she loves me, says it all the time, but is so wrapped up in her own head she can't act in my best interests.

The doctor (when they would speak to me) said that the damage to her brain is impacting her empathy and judgment and to "bear that in mind when blaming her" (like she had already been speaking to them about how horrible I am).

So...I can't even be angry, I can't even go NC which is what I need for my mental health.

Sorry for the long ramble....its just....exhausting. I have been continuously ill for weeks now, because my body can't deal with the stress of everything.

Firstly you can go LC report her to SS and the LA and her GP and state you are not able to provide care. Keep LC. She is unwell. That’s the only way I have survived is to think of mine as unwell but even before that I made excuses his father is an alcoholic etc realises I love him and sympathy. That is to my credit not to him.

Explain to the doctors she has no local family or friends (if in the U.K.) and they have to sort out SS not you.

@openwaterswimming I really feel for your predicament.
It really is catch 22 from what you say.
This scenario would be tough for someone to deal with even if they did have a normal parent -child relationship growing up.
It sounds as though you have always had the role of parenting your mother . When you were a child you had no choice in the matter at all leaving you powerless.
I sense you feel that overwhelming powerlessness now as you have been thrust back into that position again.
I just wanted to reassure you that you CAN absolutely walk away if that is what you want to do?
It is ultimately your decision and you are absolutely right nitriles to make it. You aren’t obligated to look after her at all.
Perhaps by understanding you have a choice now it may help you feel less overwhelmed?
If YOU decide you can’t and don’t want to completely wash your hands , You also have a choice in how you deal with that scenario going forward. As @IAAP said you can be LC and choose a half way house where you protect yourself but make some provisions from the side lines via SS and LA.
You are in control not her. Not any more.
Walking away will not make you a bad person and I sense the undercurrent of you feeling that it does? Trust me the attitude you have encountered in clinical team members in primary care are normal. They feel overburdened and it is normal for them to push back. It’s no reflection on their views on you .
I hope someone can perhaps provide a little more practical help. Try and take some time to take care of yourself and your needs which you are entitled to do

@IAAP - If you can bear to, please do start de-cluttering. It’s really helpful for the healing process, letting go of the material things that have no part in your future happiness.

You need all the space you can get in order to find your own space. And to give yourself space to breathe.

Get rid of it all. Those fucking books that you berate yourself with, and all the other stuff that you once thought might help fill the emptiness inside. Just dump it.

As for your sister, what do you think you should do about it? You don’t have to explain anything if you don’t want to. You say that you and your sister have never got on, so it’s probably a waste of time to think she might be supportive of you. Maybe speak to you therapist about how to handle that one? In the meantime, probably best not to share your address with her.

I hope the ADs help.

@openwaterswimming - there is an excellent long-running support thread on MN, "the cockroach cafe", for daughters of difficult/abusive elderly parents. You might find some insight there.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/elderly_parents/4285096-Cockroach-Cafe-newly-refurbished-for-the-summer

You ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE for your mother's care, and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

@IAAP what @Sicario is on point ! Great advice . Decluttering can be so satisfying and cleansing.
Do whatever you want to do and bask in the fact you can make your own decisions and choices.
Trust in the decisions you make and that you are capable of making them. All decisions are opportunities for growth and learning.

@openwaterswimming yes, get SS involved. The Hag (toxic mother in law) now has carers in three times a day. Of course, she ‘doesn’t need them’, and constantly moans (of course), but it’s a huge weight off our shoulders and means she doesn’t step over our threshold in her cherished dream of living here (as if). They are experts and paid (a pittance, wrongly)

@IAAP junk everything that makes you feel negative about yourself. Buy a ton of Jilly Cooper to replace the ‘worthy’ books. Things need to bring us joy. When you’ve decluttered, please come to mine. PLEASE.PLEASE.

Sorry, paragraphs are wonky this eve. Yes @openwaterswiming

It’s a huge relief.insist, cite your life, stress, EVERYTHING to get the care plan in place. With the doctors, yes, of course, dementia has the anger element, but bang on about your mental health, long term abuse, fractured relationship. They WILL have heard it all before so you’re not unusual. KEEP PUSHING,

I had an epic fit with social services to really emphasise the Hag’s abuse and impact on me and the other half. They were lovely and completely got it.

Good news on LC, The Hag has finally got it into her self-obsessed thick skull that Mr Monkey doesn’t need daily contact. No phone call today. Bliss. PURE BLISS.

Hello all- long term lurker. Wondering if anyone has a good therapist that is doing online consultations? I have some stuff to overcome with narcissist parent with OCD and addictions. I would be grateful if anyone can point me in right direction. Thank you

Hello @Exitstrategist - the BACP is a good place to start. You can search for a therapist in your area who specialises in your particular type of situation.

www.bacp.co.uk

Hi all. Daughter and I have had a massive talk about hoarding - over half my clothes are either from my mother or I was with her when I brought it ‘as she said it was nice’ so a massive cull has begun. Considering I lived with two suitcases of clothes for 9 months I can live without most. Funnily enough all my underwear is awful so that’s all going and nice new pants coming in. I spoke to daughter as granny did the same to her eg half done tapestry to her (she was 13) as she could finish it. Then my mother would moan about me hoarding the truth is they have 7 bedroom house and she has one room for her art, huge wardrobes packed to the ceiling in every bedroom - when she culls she gives it all to me. I’m so wanting her love I take it and then haven’t be able to get rid. So I said to daughter look through these clothes see if you want any - don’t just think ‘it’s mums and it is nice’ does it suit you, do you like it and if not say no - she’s taken one top out of 6 black sacks full and we have much more to do. Later in the week I will make a start on boxes.
I have 4 tea sets from her relatives that I don’t like given to me as she didn’t want them. We had 4 guitars (!) 4 - two are now up for sale. We posted some of eldest dresses on a selling page but no interest even for £5 each - she was disappointed but I pointed out charity shops will love them. Wish me luck !

@IAAP this is EPIC. Also, food banks and shelters want clothes as they can give clothing for free. Generosity by you and your daughter out of your mum’s control. BRILLIANT.

[quote MonkeyfromManchester]@IAAP this is EPIC. Also, food banks and shelters want clothes as they can give clothing for free. Generosity by you and your daughter out of your mum’s control. BRILLIANT.[/quote]
Thanks MM I don’t want to single anyone out on this thread as everyone has supported and is supporting me but I have followed your story for a long time - we decided to tackle some clothes today and then books and then start unpacking but look at boxes and think we haven’t had this for over a year do we need it. Likewise I’m dyslexia and so is my son - I have thousands and thousands of books and struggle - maybe an audio subscription is a way to go.

@IAAP amazing progress. You sound excited and optimistic. This is self care right here . So pleased for you. Keep going!

I have completely fallen off the wagon so to speak. It was my birthday and I knew I would get something and wasn’t dreading it like I usually am. When it arrived it took me by surprise because it was actually quite thoughtful.
Or was it? One present was the exact same as I had sent my dsis for her birthday the week before and then the same gift also I get each year ( since my dsis mentioned it). So actually it was dsis thoughts not hers.
It isn’t about the gift though, a card would suffice I’m not precious about my birthday at all.
I was stupid though and unblocked her.
I told myself that I was merely unblocking to thank her because that was what I wanted to do .
She replied to say it was so good to hear from me. I think I felt so grateful for not being questioned and queried over my absence .
In one stupid moment I wrote ‘love you mum’… what? how? Why?
Why am I still offering myself up like a sacrificial lamb. I didn’t feel love in that moment , just an overwhelming need to comply.
In response she sent me a thumbs up… she then asked for a photo of dd as we were off to her match . So we are back in the loop of her needs and I put myself there.
I’ve noticed my mood has plummeted. I’ve let myself down. Abandoned my own needs yet again to please her and dsis.
This then cascaded into friendships. I have a massive triangulation going on with two friends and because I stepped out of my role with them they have been trying to push me back in to that role. Well one in particular has and the other who was supposedly my best friend has sat back.
I feel consumed with bad feelings and it’s difficult to really be able to explain to anyone in RL the nuances of what and how this affects me.
I’m not even sure myself other than the self abuse continues and now my mood has plummeted also.
Thanks for listening.

@therealsmithfield you haven't let yourself down. I can't block my parents -but I'm learning to live. My ideal is a warm loving friendly relationship -them popping around for a cup of tea or to let the dogs out and the children popping over once a fortnight for tea. But -THAT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN unless I apologise beg and plead and they will then berate me in front of the children -telling me their rules or nothing. So I have nothing -but I do know that if and when I am reaching out it is on my terms. Eg I phoned my Mum, like you and I left a voice mail neutral 'Hi it's IAAP hope all is well. Sent you a text about meeting for a cup of tea -off next week. Would be nice to catch up hope you are both well -be nice to here from you' -no reply. You know what that's my boundary -I'm happy to me her in Costa and see her -on MY terms. Not hers. One where I can get up and walk away.

My parents know what they have done and it's their guilt. Totally.

I have kept every sodding book every CGP book my kids and every activity book I've ever done with them -and I wouldn't get rid of anything I wanted them to know I loved them -but that doesn't come from hanging on to all their childhood clothes or books or anything. That comes from the heart.

So in 4 hours -6 black sacks to the charity shop of clothes. Just packed up a huge cardboard boxes of books -out of 50 books I kept like 9. Out of those 9 -3 are earmarked for christmas presents.

My daughter was going through my clothes to see what she wanted and we talked about moving the 'problem along' so I said -if it doesn't suit you or you wouldn't buy it with you own money. Don't take it. She took one top -and put in 6 dresses and two jumpers. I'm actually looking forward to it -might have a low later today as it is beyond a huge task it will take months. But already got rid on FB of all their baby plates and bowls (the youngest is 8!), they have been collected. We have a stupid long way to go though.

@IAAP I’ve really journeyed to a place of no contact with Hag and supported MM to put up boundaries. He’s had little contact with Hag over the last week and she’s stopped raging (sorry, I mean she’s being kind, but, as we know, that’s manipulation)

‘Your mum hasn’t been screaming at you this week’
‘She’s probably screaming at the Slave Brother, but if he doesn’t change it, that’s his problem’

You sound freer by getting rid of stuff. Stuff is protection, but also stuff can be something to use as control or a weapon. Hag has all our gifts stockpiled in her spare room. Total rejection of us. Sorry, me and SIL as we buy the presents and she hates us. Fuck her.

I almost weakened today and thought why don’t we go out with my mum and the Hag for lunch. Then I thought: nope, she’ll use it to wheedle her way into dominating our Xmas and guilt trip my mum into having her over the entire of OUR Xmas break. Mum won’t take that on. Fuck my decency, I plan to see her on the 25 & 26 December and that’s it.

@therealsmithfield it’s one moment in time and you are so aware of the issues with your mum. Self-reproach is not the answer, celebrate how far you have come and the recognition of patterns. You’ll get your mojo back. Self-care and not beating yourself up is the answer. You will always be listened to and supported here. ALWAYS. Xxxx

@MonkeyfromManchester Oh my god yes! My mother regifts me back things I have brought her and rolls her eyes when I say 'You asked for these soaps and I brought them for you when I was at university (and had no money)' oh she goes -well you enjoy them.

They give the kids a £20 amazon vouchers each christmas and birthday - I get nothing not even a card. I used to think they chose the cards and then we moved in stack on cards in my dad's desk -mum says 'getting a bit low aren't they' off he goes to the nearest cheapy card shop -and buys 20 neutral cards. Tesco Amazon vouchers x20 @ £15 each. Neat little stack with envelopes. Cousin had his birthday parents randomly pull one out (not even looking at the front) and write 'Happy birthday, lots G&G' address and done. I don't want to sound ungrateful but seriously it's not the money and they say we should be grateful for anything -as it's the thought. Yet, she expects flowers and huge fuss etc

I don't want stuff anymore. I wanted them to be polite and civil -and spend time with is -they couldn't do that so I don't want anything else.

Therealsmithfield

I would like to reiterate that you have not let yourself down here.

re your comment:-
"Why am I still offering myself up like a sacrificial lamb. I didn’t feel love in that moment , just an overwhelming need to comply".

Because like so many adult children of narcissists its programmed within you to do so. Do not forget she installed those buttons in you. Many such people still hope that they will one day get through to their parents and as a result they will become the nice people they so dearly wish them to be. Wanting their approval plays a huge part in this too. Unfortunately the scenario in which these parents actually become nice and or reasonable never happens.

Re gifts and regifting (a beloved behaviour of narcissists) narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident.

@AttilaTheMeerkat

Therealsmithfield

I would like to reiterate that you have not let yourself down here.

re your comment:-
"Why am I still offering myself up like a sacrificial lamb. I didn’t feel love in that moment , just an overwhelming need to comply".

Because like so many adult children of narcissists its programmed within you to do so. Do not forget she installed those buttons in you. Many such people still hope that they will one day get through to their parents and as a result they will become the nice people they so dearly wish them to be. Wanting their approval plays a huge part in this too. Unfortunately the scenario in which these parents actually become nice and or reasonable never happens.

Re gifts and regifting (a beloved behaviour of narcissists) narcissists lack empathy, so they don't know what you want or like and, evidently, they don't care either; second, they think their opinions are better and more important than anyone else's, so they'll give you what they think you ought to want, regardless of what you may have said when asked what you wanted for your birthday; third, they're stingy and will give as gifts stuff that's just lying around their house, such as possessions that they no longer have any use for, or in really choice instances return to you something that was yours in the first place. In fact, as a practical matter, the surest way NOT to get what you want from a narcissist is to ask for it; your chances are better if you just keep quiet, because every now and then the narcissist will hit on the right thing by random accident.

This will bloody BELLS on. I so want them to have a lovely christmas, they go -don't buy us anything and then a few days before drop hints eg I've always wanted a bird bath -but don't you spend any money on it -you need to save. So I buy them a bird bath and they go -oh thought we weren't doing gifts, oh dear, we haven't got you ANYTHING. ........Oh come on IAAP don't spoil christmas , you are too big for presents. Meanwhile I'm like FFS. I can't win -and that's the idea -you CAN'T win.

@IAAP @AttilaTheMeerkat @therealsmithfield don’t forget there’s the the one ticket to a remote Atlantic island gift option for them….they could be vile to each other…

We can get on with having a good life.

Daughter and I have just done another 4 black sacks. She also handed me a godawful picture she had done in her art class called ‘my family’ which she gave to eldest - it’s all her memories and favourite things - ha put that in a black sack and will drop it off at their house