June 2021 - Well we took you to Stately Homes...

[Sicario]

June 2021, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Picking up from previous thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/4182916-March-2021-Well-we-took-you-to-Stately-Homes-thread?pg=39

Forerunning threads since December 2007 are linked on the previous threads if you want to click back and have a look.

This thread has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

The title refers to an original poster's family who claimed they could not have been abusive as they had taken her to plenty of Stately Homes during her childhood!

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

Alice Miller
Personality Disorders definition
Daughters of narcissistic mothers
Out of the FOG
You carry the cure in your own heart
Help for adult children of child abuse
Pete Walker
The Echo Society
There are also one or two less public offshoots of Stately Homes, PM AttilaTheMeerkat or toomuchtooold for details.

Some books:

Toxic Parents by Susan Forward
Homecoming by John Bradshaw
Will I ever be good enough? by Karyl McBride
If you had controlling parents by Dan Neuharth
When you and your mother can't be friends by Victoria Segunda
Children of the self-absorbed by Nina Brown - check reviews on this, I didn't find it useful myself.
Recovery of your inner child by Lucia Capacchione
Childhood Disrupted by Donna Jackson Nazakawa

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield:

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

I did also pick up a voicemail message from my mother shortly before I sent the note. She was wailing "where are you? where are you?" and sounded pretty upset. I felt sorry for her but the ramifications of stepping back into the viper's nest would have started a decline back into the toxic fog, and I'd had enough.

@Sicario - thank you for sharing that. It sounds like you had to manage a monumental decision alone, but that 4/5years down the line you are very much better off for it. I am so sorry that you had to suffer such awful experiences when you were growing up, and into adulthood.

What upsets me about going NC with my siblings are my nieces and nephews, and the cousin relationships.

Upon talking about this thread with my DP this evening and saying how cathartic it was to be able to write it down and read the responses, he said he finds it quite shocking that we are having a baby together, and yet he's met my parents perhaps four times. I feel like not only have I protected myself, I've also protected my DC and him too. In August 2018 my mother raised her hand to hit me, after which time I said she would never, ever have time alone with either of my DC. Ironically it was my DF who cornered my eldest DC this summer, which made me feel distinctly uncomfortable, and I told him so.

When I put it all in writing it's almost like I've been sleeping and just needed to wake up to it all again, and dust off the shutters. A bit of housekeeping, perhaps.

You're not wrong, MahMah. The collateral damage of going NC is significant. My kids are adults and understand the reasoning behind my decision, but the eldest one still finds it upsetting. She is a peacemaker. They remain in touch with their cousins, although we did completely lose one set of cousins due to a highly acrimonious divorce between my brother and his ex-wife. That was a shame but c'est la vie.

I was also mindful that I couldn't do anything about the toxic lies and scapegoating from my sister and BIL, so that would have been passed down the line to their adult kids too. I don't hear from them, but I have fond memories and send them greetings on their birthdays.

It's all quite hard to navigate, and sometimes I don't know what to do for the best. But they're adults now with their own lives, and I doubt they lose any sleep over it.

It is very difficult to navigate I agree . I do worry that my DC will end up not seeing or speaking to each other because they have normalised all.
I have a DB who cut us all off many years ago and so my children never got to know his dc in the first place. With his second wife we have never even met their DC.
Dsis has no children and I doubt that will change now.
My son was very close to GBs eldest because they are the same age but I saw history repeating itself all over again. GB is focused on using me and now my family as fodder to gloat and feel superior.
That was my role set up by TM so he’s been trained to do so.
Interestingly it affects me and my son never really noticed at all and had his own view on things. I think Amy damage for ds came from me and my own feelings of inadequacy therefore I wish I’d cut them lose before he was born like I did with dd.
It made me a better mother.
DS is very perceptive however and he sees that his cousin is very controlled .
We are all works in progress

We do have some very close friends who the kids have known since they were babies and I think they are like cousins and will probably be friends for life.
I think we can only try to model what we want our kids to have for themselves.
If kids see us not respecting our own selves and needs by allowing bat shit crazy relatives into our lives and enabling them to abuse us then what?
I still feel for the small me that didn’t experience love and nurture and more importantly the right to be who she was born to be.
You know what though I have a great life now and that is what I need to focus on.

My awful childhood definitely made me a better mother. I vowed to be the antithesis of my own mother. I adore my children and would take a bullet for them. They have grown into magnificent women and we have a great relationship. They know they can rely on me and that I deeply respect them as adults. I have also made it clear that they owe me absolutely nothing, not now, not ever, and that raising them has been my honour.

I will always remain sad that I had to go NC, but it turned out that my sister was cut from exactly the same cloth as my mother, and once the scales fell from my eyes and I saw the whole fucked-up thing for what it was, there was no other option. I only wish I had done it years ago rather than putting myself through the mincer time after time.

I genuinely wish my family of origin every happiness, but finally learned that it is not my responsibility to deliver it.

@Sicario I could have written this.
I try to see the strengths in my family of origin but I try to parent exactly how I wasn’t! I have 2 under 5 so I have some way to go!
I have also finally blocked her everywhere and sent an email saying I didn’t want her to contact me again. I feel at peace.

@Sicario, @Readingtoaster - I am finding it so hard to navigate this ship (again), as for me, my childhood was "normal", and it is only when I look back on it as an adult, with the knowledge that I have now, that I realise it clearly wasn't. To be used as a human shield at around the age of 8, defending my mother from her own parents' behaviour. To be fearful of her rage and her physical violence, to have no friends because she would not hold back from making anyone who came over feel distinctly uncomfortable. To ask for affection / cuddles and be turned down. To be told time and again not to upset her, because of the sister she lost when she was 9. Yes there were fun times and we were very lucky, but also there were really confusing and upsetting times. She would often manipulate arguments between me and my DF, and being the last child at home, I could not wait to get away so went to Uni (4 years) and then moved abroad for 7 years. I probably shouldn't have come back.

I fear that my own children may suffer because of my own experiences. Although I champion them and tell them that they make me proud every day, I worry that sometimes I'm too tired to be affectionate or give them the attention that they crave to talk endlessly about Harry Potter, Star Wars, or Pokémon. I worry that perhaps I don't have the empathy that I find so very lacking in my own mother. Admittedly I'm glad I have two boys so far - I worry that I'd replicate my own experience of a relationship with my mother if this baby is a girl. But I will endeavour to remain aware of this possibility at all times and try not to fall into that trap.

As it happens, I left my ex because the children were not going to learn how to form healthy reciprocal relationships by experiencing my marriage dynamic with their father. And fortunately they are really doing well at their new schools, and already had mates over "to hang out". This never happened at my home. My friends were terrified of my mother. 🤦🏼‍♀️

@therealsmithfield

We do have some very close friends who the kids have known since they were babies and I think they are like cousins and will probably be friends for life. I think we can only try to model what we want our kids to have for themselves. If kids see us not respecting our own selves and needs by allowing bat shit crazy relatives into our lives and enabling them to abuse us then what? I still feel for the small me that didn’t experience love and nurture and more importantly the right to be who she was born to be. You know what though I have a great life now and that is what I need to focus on.

This is so important actually - she didn't have the right to be who she was when she was born. As a homework topic during therapy when I was 18, I had to ask my 'D'M what my birth was like. So she told me - I was induced because my eldest sister was in the hospital at the time really poorly. So I wasn't wanted at that time - she actually said that. "You were definitely wanted, but not right then." When I was born my mother went immediately to visit my sister, and when she came back to the room "you refused to breastfeed."

I explained all this to the therapist at the age of 18.

When I returned to therapy during my divorce, I explained the same story. The therapist said "you do realise that as an newborn you aren't the one to blame for not breastfeeding?" And she was so right: I carried that guilt with me for years - the guilt that I rejected my own mother - because that's how she made me feel.

😳

Total NC is hard...I've been NC with my father for 32 years now, I'm 53. Although it was my mother that pushed myself and my two brothers to sever all contact with him when he left her for OW when I was 21, we'd had a pretty poor relationship for the decade before that. I've figured out recently that in that decade he'd only actually been around for about 3 years of it - the rest of the time he was working abroad. Most of the time he wouldn't come home when he had annual leave. He'd never wanted to be a father in the first place, and once my older brother hit 10 he basically gave up on family life.

He'd be 75 now, if he's still alive. The last time he tried getting in touch with me was about 12 years ago, through Facebook. I ignored his message, locked down my security settings and changed my name on there so he has no chance of finding me now. He's been out of my life for far longer than he was in it...he's a complete stranger now.

To be honest it's what other people say about it all that can make it hard - like I've posted on here before, people who had 'normal' childhoods and parents just don't get it. And of course not actually liking, let alone loving, your parents is still so unacceptable. 'Blood is thicker than water' is one of the stupidest sayings ever. I won't put up with shit from anyone, especially just because they happen to be related to me...in fact I expect more and better treatment from family. I feel very alone sometimes with thinking this way. The media doesn't help of course, particularly around Christmas.

Checking in here. I have a counselling session booked for tonight. In the last couple of days - I’ve broken down twice. We have had Covid and are recovering (out of isolation) but it’s at times like this I want a family.

I feel like I’ve been such a bad mum, I sometimes haven’t slept for days and my temper far from ideal, brush eldest off and away as I’m too busy with work. Youngest is SEN and bloody hard work.
I just want a hug.
I get torn between friends saying ‘they are in their 80s’ forgive them and move forward with them and other saying NC. I did NC / LC with them for 5 years a number of years ago and it made me very very ill. Really Ill. My mother is bad but nowhere near the scale of my father. I did ring her this morning as I have asked her a number of times since July to meet up and all were ignored yet she texts me about a letter and then a tv programme. So I phoned and left a message to her mobile just neutral - hi hope both ok would love to meet for a coffee today or tomorrow or even next week - look forward to hearing from you. They I regretted it as I’ve been looking at my phone at all - no reply. Went for a long walk with a friend and cried. I want to open up more to my counsellor but I’m afraid - every time I reach out to friends they ignore me (sometimes). I pulled my best friend up on her shorty treatment of me and we had a long talk she agreed she was a user and had treated me badly - her daughter is cutting and attempting suicide so she felt bad about being in touch ( I have a daughter the same age) as mine is doing ok - I said to her that it can’t be a pity party for both of us and we both need to look at what we were getting from it as currently she was using me for her emotional crutch and dropping and picking me up at will.

I know I will be skated on here for contacting my mum but at times she has been great and I can’t go no contact I do still love them and want a relationship.

I’m just hoping she replies which is stupid - as given she hasn’t replied to any of the 5/6 texts asking to meet up - I doubt I will get a reply. I want a relationship with boundaries eg meet up for a coffee, chat and not me going round or then knowing where I live

IAAP

re your comments:-
"I know I will be skated on here for contacting my mum but at times she has been great and I can’t go no contact I do still love them and want a relationship".

I am not going to slate you but I honestly do think you are chasing your own tail here for your parents; both of whom do not give a fig about you and for that matter your kids. Running yourself into the ground emotionally for them is harming you immensely and you need to stop doing that now. They have really put you all through the wringer these last few months as well. Their behaviour for one incident re your belongings is way up there appallingly bad and I have read of many bad things on the Stately Homes thread over the years. Your family
is your children and you; you do have a family here in them.

Abusive people can be "nice" sometimes and that is probably the part you cling onto at all costs. However, this is really all part and parcel of the nice/nasty cycle of abuse which is a continuous one.
You absolutely do need to drop the rope here. As long as you have any hope here re either of them you will keep on this ultimately unhappy path.

"I’m just hoping she replies which is stupid - as given she hasn’t replied to any of the 5/6 texts asking to meet up - I doubt I will get a reply. I want a relationship with boundaries eg meet up for a coffee, chat and not me going round or then knowing where I live"

What you want is clearly not going to happen; you're going to have to let go of any and all residual hope here re them. Your parents cannot accept and do not respect any boundaries you care to set them, they are not built that way and that is not your fault either.

I would examine a lot more closely how and when your mother has been "great" towards you because on further reflection its likely not been the case at all. Its all likely been totally conditional on you behaving nicely, keeping quiet and being compliant around them.

How skilled is your counsellor on the subject of abuse and abusive relationships?. I hope your session goes well this evening.

I’m just in pieces though I want a family. I want to be loved we moved here for them, sold a house, got a job here - eldest now doing GCSEs we can not move. We just can’t. I hate the thought of being in the town and bumping into them or seeing them - every old person that even remotely looks like them I stop and my heart races and I panic. I can’t drop the rope. I’m drowning.

Just a quick check in. I have been relieved of the burden of being 'the outsider' following the death of father. Having lost mother 18 months ago, it is a blessed relief.

Conversely, it has had a positive bearing on my relationship with my estranged sister. We have a long way to go but have come to a mutual understanding that our parents were equally culpable in the rift. Which is odd as I expected her to side with them even now. But lately, with the burden of sick father falling to her, she said she has realised somewhat the position I was in as she was unable to escape the dysfunction and the effect it has had on her family.

It might also help that she has recently separated from her husband and has literally no support network. No close family. She allowed herself to be cut off from everyone. Her only 'friends' are friends of our parents who stayed in touch with her, she feels out of obligation.

So, I have a small amount of guilt that I am not devastated and grieving as everyone expects I should. But it is overwhelmingly outweighed by a huge weight being lifted. And having supportive friends who absolutely understand my position.

@IAAP

I’m just in pieces though I want a family. I want to be loved we moved here for them, sold a house, got a job here - eldest now doing GCSEs we can not move. We just can’t. I hate the thought of being in the town and bumping into them or seeing them - every old person that even remotely looks like them I stop and my heart races and I panic. I can’t drop the rope. I’m drowning.

I think that's what a lot of us have in common: we just want a family. But these people who are our "family" are not able to provide this normalcy no matter how much we try to fix them. Sending your mother a text and presuming she won't reply as she hasn't replied to the previous 5/6 you've sent is her enjoying your despair, and her continued control over you. It's not good for you to feel this over and over again 😞

That’s interesting about your sister @minisocks I can see that happening with my sister if anything happens with her husband ( his parents both died young) and he has some health issues. It’s still difficult. My sister will text and say ‘how are you’ and I think she is on a fishing trip for my parents etc I replied recently that things weren’t great as we all had Covid and she never replied (!) so why bother asking - but it’s baby steps there.

The counselling yesterday had opened the floodgates and was good. I’m still not sleeping, still have nausea and diarrhoea and that’s taking it’s toll but homeschooling and bickering dire children. I ended up sending my son to his room for his dinner - he was so rude to me and interrupted me twice whilst I was having a shower demanding things - I was like 10 minutes max and by 8 years old (he is Sen) he needs to stop doing this.

Counselling didn’t start well me sobbing about Covid being a crap mother etc and my mothers and being pulled in all different directions.

Yes my mother is vile sometimes and yes she isn’t a hug mum but she did sometimes stand up for me. I wonder if he dies if then things might be easier. I can remember a number of occasions my father being foul to me: one example he had made a Beautiful carving of the flower with my name on when I was born and it was door sign on my room (nailed on), one day it fell off / I was about 13 I guess maybe 11 - nail wasn’t anywhere to be seen So I picked it up and stuck it with blue tack on the back of the door. One day he came in ranting about me whilst I was studying on my desk and starting screaming at me - I sat in silence trying to do my homework and he started saying ‘you bitch you bugger you piece of shit you little sod’ by this time I was crying silently then he spotted the flower on the back of the door the only ‘proof I had’ that one day he had loved me and he torn it off and snapped it over and over and over again until it was smashed into tiny pieces screaming don’t you ever nail anything in my door - I quietly said ‘it was blue tacked on’ and he stood up and said ‘you little bitch how was I to know you hadn’t nailed it on’ and I was sobbing properly by then and he said ‘you’ll understand when you have kids’ and I replied I won’t have kids I won’t pass your genes on and he said - you’re a fucking slut (I’d never even looked at a boy at this point) you wouldn’t be able to keep your legs shut at the sight of a dick.

It makes my skin crawl. When I told my mother she had a go at me but told me I was making the rest of the exchange up.

Hundreds of times in the car, he would repeatedly slam on the brakes over and over again, if he felt someone was too close until we were screaming thinking we were going to die hundreds and hundreds of times. I never told anyone - we knew if the family but no one else knew.

He’s very high powered - think like a top judge - a huge position of power. He’s vile.

My mother would be screaming at him to stop and he’d talk her round. She was totally controlled by him.

The last time I spoke to her she said he had never been so destroyed and how ill he was and that he was refusing to speak or discuss me or the grand kids. He didn’t speak to his father for 40 years and a brother for 10 years etc I know I can never have a loving parent. But the counsellor said I can grieve I can cry I can feel rejected unloved unwanted - because that’s the reality but that it says what they are like not me.

He said baby steps to self confidence and self esteem and loving myself

So a lot of work to do - my daughter tells me I’m a fab mum and how much she loves me and I’m worried she will see ‘the real me’ and I’ll lose her.

Hang on in there @IAAP - the road to recovery is long and there are many bumps along the way. We hear you. We see you. We understand. You WILL come through this. Please be very gentle with yourself.

Sending strength and solidarity.

@IAAP popping in as not well. You are doing so well. It might not feel like it, but you are. You are bound to be struggling with this.

Counsellor is very right - it is baby steps and self-care.

I totally understand that you want a relationship with your mum, but from what you’ve said about your parents’ relationship, your dad will be pulling the strings.

Keep remembering how your dad behaved to you, how your mum didn’t back you. I guess she didn’t stand up to your dad when he was horrible to YOUR son.

I’m not saying it’s your mum’s fault, per se, as it sounds like he’s abusive to her, but you need to keep yourself safe and away from any link to him.

Counselling will make you feel more vulnerable at the moment because you’re at the stage of recall and working it through. It’s hard, but the end result of counselling is BRILLIANT.

It’s not the same as she’s not my mother (no words to describe the relief!), but having counsellor has made me see The Hag for what she is (coercive Narc), spot her behaviours and pull away. It’s helped me support Mr Monkey.

Keep going. This is the hardest part. HUGS. XXX

@Sicario Jesus, what a car crash of a family. I can see why you’ve closed the door. And bolted it. Your life sans abusive nutters is much, much better. MM is doing well on not phoning The Hag. He’s pretty ill- we’re waiting for our PCRS - if she’s horrible to him I’m going round to breath on her 84 year old carcass.

Thanks, Monkey. Thank god for all the support we get here (metaphorically because I don't believe in god.) MM is very lucky to have you. You are very insightful and just the right amount of badass MoFo.

@Sicario this forum is a LIFELINE. It’s taught me such a lot and really empowered me. And it’s made me more badass MOFO as I’m very much ‘go for harmony at all costs’. Thank you for all your wisdom.

Our PCRs are negative so Mr Monkey has phoned her (the work to rule on not phoning her every day is going well)

NOT that’s she’s interested. No enquiry after my health OBVIOUSLY. His ‘monkey’s been looking after me’ was met with cursory ‘right’. Lots of caring mother act.

Then she rings back two minutes later re Xmas.
‘I think I’ll just spend Xmas with Slave Son. I’m getting old’.
NO IDEA what that’s about. Probably, she sees him in a weak place so he can play the begging her to come BS. OR I’m getting old so you must spend it with me in my slum. Too old to travel? I can’t always work out the manipulation’s end game, I just know it is. NOTHING CAN BE TAKEN AT FACE VALUE.

He doesn’t bite - the new line is ‘that’s up to you’.

She did have some incredible insight:

‘Slave Son doesn’t want to do Christmas with me’.

@Readingtoaster

I’m also interested in the reaction. The issue I have is I never get contacted so it won’t blow up until I have zero contact at Xmas and when she doesn’t get fawned over on her birthday. I know I’m in for a rough ride here. Although we’ve set the controls To move all her emails to junk it’s a shame I can’t prevent the email from being sent!

Similar for me.

My parents will probably attempt to turn up to the children's schools before Christmas or ask for a meet in a cafe in October and pass over gifts etc. We might get a text for Christmas day but unlikely.

Historically they have refused to tell us what they are doing 'in case we get jealous' and then given us or dropped off presents sometimes in August.

I am struggling I'm back on AD. Which is much needed I think. In 8 months -a handful of texts, all neutral and practical -4 demands to know our address and very little else.

I so want to drop the rope -but I'm drowning and I have no anchor -so at the moment I can't. I want contact. I really do. And I want boundaries. I can not drop the rope -maybe if I had other supportive family or if I had a partner -I don't. It's just me -so without them I'm nothing.

I'm taking baby steps with my counsellor -he's helping me see I sabotage friendships etc. When people tell me they like me I just run away (not men but generally) I just can't do friendships and never did -they told me at school that I was liar, cheat, bitch, bugger etc thick as pig shit etc and I would never have friends. When upset they would stop me phoning them saying -you will drive them away and I bet you tell them all about us from your twisted little point of view. I do and did get friends but I'm struggling and I got 3 degrees but I'm still 'thick' and will always be. Ironically they see two sets of neighbours (known them all for 40 + years) and that's it -no other friends. Other then another couple that go on holiday once a year to the same place -and they meet up the same place - no contact other than that in the year. It's just strange. Lots of people they know -but no real friends. And those friends are dying -neither has any parents. Dad doesn't speak to his brothers -maybe once a year to one and not to the other. Mum's sister is Dad.

@IAAP this right here is everything

‘…. without them I'm nothing.’

This is the lie they have fed you your entire life and you have absorbed to the point you believe it.
Actually , that’s not true . Your ( let’s call it mammalian brain ) believes it’s true and the fear kicks in when they abandon you .
Physically abandon you that is, because in reality you have been abandoned your entire life by them emotionally regardless of if they are physically in your life or not.
And guess what? You’re still here, you are alive and surviving and thriving in spite of them.
They have made you believe the above because that is what allows them total control over you.
Logically you know this but emotionally you have this inbuilt trip wire. They know it’s there because they installed it.
I’m hoping just realising this will help you short circuit that trip wire. Yes it is baby steps and it sure isn’t easy. We are here to support you.

@MonkeyfromManchester get better soon both of you. The hag will not prevail , stay strong.