Red flags on second date

[Beauxandarrow]

Hi all.

Before I dive in to this, I’m not asking if these are red flags or not, I know they are. I just want an opinion on how likely this scenario is to be true, because all my senses are telling me to run for the hills to be honest.

So I went on a second date last night. We went to dinner at a nice sushi restaurant and I was looking forward to it after a good first date and good conversation over messaging following our first meet up.

It started well last night and we talked about a few things we have in common such as values etc. After a few drinks though, he told me that in the interest of being transparent, he wanted to tell me that he has a conviction for sexual assault.

He is in the military and said that he was on a night out a few years back and him and his friends got chatting to some girls in the pub and one of them accused him of putting his hand down her top and groping her. Apparently the CCTV didn’t show the table they were sat on so it was very much a he said/she said scenario. This turned in to a 9 month long court process and despite 6 of his friends apparently telling consistent stories to the court, there was a risk of him being found guilty so he was advised to plead guilty to save his job.

Something doesn’t feel right about this story.

9 months of court for groping? I’m not minimising that at all, but it sounds like more actually happened than he is letting on. Also, under what circumstance could it be advised to plead guilty to something you didn’t do? I questioned this and told him I can’t understand why that would save your job and he said if he had pleaded not guilty and then been found guilty he would’ve been kicked out.

He then went on to mention how he has been verbally and physically assaulted by blokes on his ship following the incident because of hearsay and people making rumours about him being a rapist.

This is just not right is it? I am just not convinced that this is because of ‘transparency’. I have friends in the military and I feel like he’s only told me this before someone else does.

Very, very odd. Needless to say I don’t feel another date is on the cards.

I had one like this, but it was another type of offence. He did the transparency lark, too, 'This is me, warts and all' to prove how 'honest' he was. It's a front. He really was what his conviction was, a shit person.

Nah. No people with criminal records, that's one of my dealbreakers.

You need to bin him off NOW. No more chances, benefit of the doubt, see how it goes, be kind, female social conditioning bullshit.

@Beauxandarrow

For those saying my counselling hasn’t worked... it has. That’s why I’m not buying what he’s said to me.

You need to use what you've learned in counselling and confidently walk away. It's great you see how worrying what he has said is, but it's a bit troubling you seem quite torn over what to do. You need to walk away, 100%.

You should be dating at all until you no longer feel compelled to even contemplate binning someone off for whatever reason you like. Being desperate just to have a relationship is like a magnet to people like this man.

Thank you everyone.
I understand what you’re saying in that it appears concerning that I’m debating going on a date with him again. I’m not, we won’t be seeing each other again.

I suppose it’s just surprising how people can appear so normal but be absolute liars!

Ah well it’s really no loss, only two dates in! I’m grateful this has been mentioned early on whilst it’s easy to cut it off and walk away.

He’s obviously a creep and more importantly a criminal. I just find it a bit nuts how people like that can come across so ‘normal’.

For the record I’m not desperate for a relationship I’ve been single for three years by choice and this is the first date I’ve had. I’m very much set up and fine on my own

Google often doesn't show spent convictions due to a court case years ago.

However if you know where it happened and the court case was in the same area then search the website of the local paper, even if they didn't do a story about it, it's usually been included in their weekly "who's been in the docks" name and shame

Well, people can be convicted unfairly obviously. It just seems very unlikely as PP’s have said in a sexual assault or harassment case, when it’s so rare to get a conviction in the first place.

In the very very unlikely situation that he is telling the truth, it’s a really really sad situation for him to be in as of course this will follow him all his days. But I don’t think I would be taking that risk - I think you are absolutely right here OP.

(And I am probably very unusually liberal, in that not all types of past conviction would put me off someone. Anything of this type tho, 100% yes!)

OP good call. A someone has said upthread, on the basis of what he has said to you he would not even have been charged. The prosecution has to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that the offence happened. He is lying.

Block and ghost him. There's lots of lovely men out there who don't have a criminal record for sexual assault.

Put in a clare’s law request with the local police and follow what it says to place the application. This is a way to protect you when starting a new relationship.

I would also Google ‘assault and the approx date of the crime’ rather than just his name, as eg he could be using his middle name with you, and the crime. Also adding in the local newspaper title can bring up results hidden right down the list.

Abusers do this. Admit a serious behaviour from their past, minimise it, put a shine/spin on it, see how you react.

If you stay, they know how much you're willing to accept.

@EveningOverRooftops

Put in a clare’s law request with the local police and follow what it says to place the application. This is a way to protect you when starting a new relationship.

I would also Google ‘assault and the approx date of the crime’ rather than just his name, as eg he could be using his middle name with you, and the crime. Also adding in the local newspaper title can bring up results hidden right down the list.

Why bother? Just don't go on another date with him.

@WineAcademy

Abusers do this. Admit a serious behaviour from their past, minimise it, put a shine/spin on it, see how you react.

If you stay, they know how much you're willing to accept.

Yep, that's what mine did!

Why bother? Just don't go on another date with him.

I’d still want to know the truth regardless of whether I wanted to continue with a A potential relationship or not. Plus, dodgy men have a habit of lingering around like a bad smell even if you tell them to fuck off and want nothing more to do with them.

Also, adding this here because other women could be reading this and not know about clares law or that it’s an available tool for them to make sure potential partners are what they appear to be.

It's a very common grooming technique, part of trauma bonding. Put you on the back foot, make you question your instincts (he seems so nice and normal, etc), dial up the charm, reel you in.

Generally military guys are pretty loyal - for his colleagues to beat him up and call him a rapist means that he probably raped her, even if that’s not what he was convicted of.

Despite their laddish behaviour and regular desire to get their leg over, all the military guys I knew and worked with had a strong sense of right and wrong, and justice, and did not tolerate that sort of thing at all.

@Sicario

Given that the vast majority of sexual assault cases never make it to a court - it is only the most serious cases, with overwhelming evidence, that get to court - RUN.

This is a no brainer. Block him.

this

Well done OP, I think you’re doing exactly the right thing.

I think he’s disclosed the bare minimum and put the most positive gloss on it possible.

I can see how Clare’s law is amazing for people in new relationships with concerns. In this case though, I am just cutting ties and continuing with my life as I don’t feel I need to know any more. I think the fact he’s got a conviction should be enough for me, and it is!

I think he's hedging his bets in case you invoke Clare's Law and find out that way.

A criminal conviction for sexual assault never becomes "spent" it will always turn up on civilian DAB enquiries from employers, even voluntary work, and disqualify him from many, many paid careers and viluntary placements. Which is why no innocent person would ever admit to a sexual assault they did not commit "to save their career",

Yes, easier to lose your current job and know you have no record!

Tiger talk?
You've rolled your eyes at that. It's not something I made up. It was on CCTV and I've seen it myself. The woman claimed he grabbed her between the legs. To do so he would have to duck because of the height difference. It simply wasn't possible. It was a split second where she walked into him.
I couldn't get my head around his solicitors advice to plead guilty.

There's no way a case would get to trial without solid evidence. If it happened as he said the CPS would not have approved a prosecution. He's lying.

Considering how impossible it is to get a conviction with video evidence and admissions from the actual rapist, there is no way his version of events is true.

My guess, he raped some poor woman and pled down to sexual assault. If you looked him up, what you find is a conviction for that. IME people plead down a charge or two and only if they are guilty as sin. I'm sure it happens the other way but I've only seen it one way.

And he was probably caught on cctv, considering he weirdly added that detail into his story.

He’s obviously a creep and more importantly a criminal. I just find it a bit nuts how people like that can come across so ‘normal’.

Sadly, that isn’t unusual. My DM had no idea that our F was sexually abusing my DSis and me when we were growing up. It was a complete shock to her when we told her a few years ago. (He died many years ago.)

If men like this didn’t appear ‘normal’ then they wouldn’t win over women so easily into getting involved with them.

I suspect that this man is lying, as his version really doesn’t add up. He’s probably being called a rapist because he is one.