Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

I met my wife (from Tokyo), through a nice tradition they still have there where an existing couple formally invite two single people that they like and think will like each other (and have similar values and expectations). The couple inviting think quite hard about this - it is not just a “you sit here at the dinner party because you are both single”. It has worked well for us (and some other couple we know too). :)

That is a lovely tradition! And how wonderful for them that they were the "Cupid" of your marriage.

[quote LivBa]@SilenceIsInvisible

I took your comments seriously before but I can see now that you're trolling. You're literally creating fictional posts. Nowhere have I said anything about men should be marrying women 20 years their junior 😂 I've not even alluded to age at all. These mentions are just exposing your own biases.

You need to deal with your own misogyny and deal with the fact that a lot of women make different choices based on different life priorities. Not everyone wants to hungrily chase money/status above spending more quality time with their own family. Women who have other types of careers or who choose differently (including staying at home to.look after their own kids instead of paying others to look after them) are in no way less of a catch than women in high paying careers. A lot of these women are intelligent, good company, kind etc. They're in no way less worthy or a downgrade partner to men who happen to have high flying careers.

If men with time consuming careers want to pick women who have less time consuming careers/want to be SAHM to bring up their kids during their formative years, such a decision makes practical sense in a lot of ways for both parties.

Two parents in time-consuming careers are simply not able to spend as much quality time with their kids, compared to families where there's a different set up. If you don't want to hear the truth, that's your problem to deal with.[/quote]
Many of your posts seem to equate time-consuming careers with high-earning careers. That isn't necessarily the case. And plenty of people who earn higher wages are still caring, kind people involved in family life. Your own prejudices are colouring your views and creating logical fallacies in your arguments.

@Gwenhwyfar

"It's snobby for a woman to want a man who is her intellectual equal and has similar drive in terms of career and aspirations etc? confused"

It was nothing about being the intellectual equal and all about career status. And yes, only liking people with high status jobs is snobby. Looking down on people you consider your social inferiors is the definition of snobby.

Wow, some pretty big leaps there. None of my posts spoke about looking down on people. I stated that people tend to have more in common with people who have similar values, work ethics, intellectual abilities, senses of humour etc (these things are intrinsically linked in many ways).

[quote Misty9]@Sunnidayz I lasted nearly 11 years but probably felt similarly after 1.5... I did get therapy after the split though (systemic type) and highly recommend it! Good luck, whatever you choose [/quote]
Thanks, I'll look into that therapy x

This makes me wonder if you have seen any rich men in RL or what your definition of beauty is. Many of the parents who send their kids to my nursery are rich or rich and famous but apart from being well dressed, and well groomed (and in vaguely decent shape) I wouldn’t call any of their partners beautiful. Most of them aren’t even distinguisably young compared to the rich / famous partner.

One of my friends comes from a rich family and did say rich men are more likely to chose rich women their own age - I didn’t believe her until I started working here.

I think this is because in upper class circles it would be considered very bad form and quite embarrassing to the family to be dating someone more than 10 or so years your junior, in general.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Is what men and women find attractive in a partner symmetrical though? And if not why not?

This is something I was only really made aware of when I hit my kid 30s."

I'm quite surprised at some of these comments that appear on MN from time to time. I have very little dating experience, but watched a lot of TV growing up so this has always been obvious to me!
The reasons why have already been given.
Some people say evolutionary biology, others will say it's do with men and women's status in society. If women were the richest and most powerful, would young men then compete for ugly, fat but high status older women?

Short answer: yes.

There is a big misunderstanding about testosterone. It makes males want to seek status, not power or dominance specifically. So if you created a society where altruism was rewarded by social status they'd all be running around doing as many good deeds as possible. I remember a neurologist giving a lecture on this, a TED talk I think.

So if the way for men to get status was by having a rich/ powerful wife, that's exactly what they'd do (biologically speaking).

Therefore the objectification of women in our society and being with a young looking woman being considered a status symbol by other males is exactly what underpins all of this.

‘Therefore the objectification of women in our society and being with a young looking woman being considered a status symbol by other males is exactly what underpins all of this.’

So it’s all biology ????? What about the huge amount of social comsidtooning that teaches men they are entitled and the social structures that have been in place for thousands of years to support this

It’s NOT . It’s about the oppression of women . If it were a biological imperative women would be having sex with multiple men in order to let the best sperm impregnate them in what is known as sperm competition

Not to mention the consumerism those who espouse the biology argument ( often unveils and mgtow ) always come to when asked , if men primarily are attracted to fertility signals how does that work when fertility starts at around age 10 or 11 for many female . How do they know when it’s appropriate to pursue a female or are all men biologically programmed to be attracted to children ... because this is LITERALLy what a biological argument is saying ?????? Especially considering that many young people look much older . I think it’s more than a little concerning to get up and say that the only thing stopping men is the law . So this is something those who argue this biological stance really really need to address

You may have heard on Ted talk but I can assure you the old biology chestnut has been well debunked . You’re right on one thing though . It IS about power Go do some research h about the benefits to men in disempowering and controlling resources through telling women their only value was in what they could provide as in children and sexual service to men .

Sorry ....
not to mention the conundrum those who espouse ...( often incels )

And ok let’s not say power , let’s call it status.

Doesn’t really matter . Men have gained hugely through keeping women down. , especially older women who become more empowered and more competition to resources as they gain life experiences , become free of the burden of raising children and free of caring about pleasing men

Troy with the tattoos...That’s what they want and keep looking for even though they aren’t any good for them...They don’t want Graham the accountant 😂And honestly they are all women in their mid thirties to early 40s
In my 20s I was more keen on status and money. I wanted a husband and a nice house and a baby without having to worry about finances, so Graham was the sort of guy I was looking for. At 40 if I got divorced my priorities would be different. I don’t want any more kids so I don’t need a good father with plenty of money. I don’t want to remarry so I don’t need a man who will commit. I already have a house. Truthfully I’d probably go for someone hot like Troy who I can have fun with. That’s if Troy was interested in me, which he probably wouldn’t be!

I have often pondered this with my friends and DH and the only conclusion we came to was that the good ones basically get snapped up quickly so are out of the dating pool.

My DH is also foreign and happy to say we have the best marriage - we have the same sense of humour and get on like a house on fire which is so important to me - sod status and money

@Washingtofold

‘Therefore the objectification of women in our society and being with a young looking woman being considered a status symbol by other males is exactly what underpins all of this.’

So it’s all biology ????? What about the huge amount of social comsidtooning that teaches men they are entitled and the social structures that have been in place for thousands of years to support this

It’s NOT . It’s about the oppression of women . If it were a biological imperative women would be having sex with multiple men in order to let the best sperm impregnate them in what is known as sperm competition

Not to mention the consumerism those who espouse the biology argument ( often unveils and mgtow ) always come to when asked , if men primarily are attracted to fertility signals how does that work when fertility starts at around age 10 or 11 for many female . How do they know when it’s appropriate to pursue a female or are all men biologically programmed to be attracted to children ... because this is LITERALLy what a biological argument is saying ?????? Especially considering that many young people look much older . I think it’s more than a little concerning to get up and say that the only thing stopping men is the law . So this is something those who argue this biological stance really really need to address

You may have heard on Ted talk but I can assure you the old biology chestnut has been well debunked . You’re right on one thing though . It IS about power Go do some research h about the benefits to men in disempowering and controlling resources through telling women their only value was in what they could provide as in children and sexual service to men .

No. The motivation of men to behave this way - as I believe my post made clear - is driven primarily by two factors: a) testosterone creating a high drive to seek social status, and; b) the structure of our society in that younger female partners are considered a symbol of status, money is considered a symbol of status, there is no social penalty or ostracism for appalling behaviour towards women, ghosting, violence, abandoning your children etc.

@Washingtofold

‘Therefore the objectification of women in our society and being with a young looking woman being considered a status symbol by other males is exactly what underpins all of this.’

So it’s all biology ????? What about the huge amount of social comsidtooning that teaches men they are entitled and the social structures that have been in place for thousands of years to support this

It’s NOT . It’s about the oppression of women . If it were a biological imperative women would be having sex with multiple men in order to let the best sperm impregnate them in what is known as sperm competition

Not to mention the consumerism those who espouse the biology argument ( often unveils and mgtow ) always come to when asked , if men primarily are attracted to fertility signals how does that work when fertility starts at around age 10 or 11 for many female . How do they know when it’s appropriate to pursue a female or are all men biologically programmed to be attracted to children ... because this is LITERALLy what a biological argument is saying ?????? Especially considering that many young people look much older . I think it’s more than a little concerning to get up and say that the only thing stopping men is the law . So this is something those who argue this biological stance really really need to address

You may have heard on Ted talk but I can assure you the old biology chestnut has been well debunked . You’re right on one thing though . It IS about power Go do some research h about the benefits to men in disempowering and controlling resources through telling women their only value was in what they could provide as in children and sexual service to men .

Also what I said was nothing to do with a biological attraction of men to young women. I said that their high levels of testosterone leads them to seek social status and that our society has decided to link male status party to attracting young women (at least for the more crass members of it).

You seem to have misunderstood my post entirely.

@SilenceIsNotAvailable

My apologies I did indeed misunderstand and was thinking it was an argument for the biological justification of men’s behaviour . I think just too many late nights for me and frustration with the posts that I see on here from ( usually males ) who appear to put absolutely zero thought into the implications of their ‘ biology arguments ‘ . Clearly after rereading that’s not what you were saying at all and I agree entirely on the points you make about the status seeking behaviour and lack of social penalties

So it follow then that males with less testosterone - and therefore less masculine looking - will behave less like this? Are they the 'good' men referred to in this thread? And the ones who get snapped up early?

@Misty9

So it follow then that males with less testosterone - and therefore less masculine looking - will behave less like this? Are they the 'good' men referred to in this thread? And the ones who get snapped up early?

It's not that simplistic because of the interplay between personality (how suggestible someone is for example), environment (how their particular upbringing influenced their attitudes) and the hormonal drive to seek status. The point really is that on a societal level the way to change this behaviour would seem to be my making it socially unacceptable.

If women behaved as too many men do (sleeping around at any opportunity, abandoning children etc) they'd be ridiculed and/ or ostracised for it. If that happened with men also, the vast majority would cease that behaviour.

So for example if other men called them out on it instead of praising it/ laughing about it, and women refused to get involved with men who had exhibited these behaviours, it would become far less common.

[quote Washingtofold]@SilenceIsNotAvailable

My apologies I did indeed misunderstand and was thinking it was an argument for the biological justification of men’s behaviour . I think just too many late nights for me and frustration with the posts that I see on here from ( usually males ) who appear to put absolutely zero thought into the implications of their ‘ biology arguments ‘ . Clearly after rereading that’s not what you were saying at all and I agree entirely on the points you make about the status seeking behaviour and lack of social penalties[/quote]
No problem. It was very late and I share your frustrations with many of the posts in the thread.

@Misty9 I meant to write by making it socially unacceptable.

In the last 20 years more men and women have married someone of similar education level, IQ and earnings It used to be fine for the doctor to have the blonde busty beauty queen or secretary on his arm. Now his friends would think why did you not want someone of the same level as it were? (Not that secretaries cannot be bright and rich of course..)

I spent a bit of time on the phone to one of my daughters in the last few years (who married last month) talking about dating and men was interesting. I am glad it has all worked out for her but she certainly found on internet dating some men were not that great or not looking for marriage and children and she ended up finding someone at work although she does not work there now so there is no work problem over that and no one was the boss of or in the department of the other.

I have 3 unmarried sons. It will be interesting to see who and when and if they choose to marry. My grandfather was on e of 3 girls and 7 boys. Only two of those (the oldest and the youngest children - male) married and had had children. One sister was a nurse for 30 years and ran a ward in Wapping. One worked in haberdashery and the other sister she lived with stayed home and kept house for the 2 spinster sisters. 3 brothers emigrated to Canada/USA and did not make fortunes there and did not even marry. Another brother died unmarried in his 40s. Another in a lunatic asylum again unmarried. That left the other 2 who did marry, one of whom died with 3 very very young children which was very sad. So only my grandfather who married in his 30s due to money problems and only had my father at 49 lived a "normal" married life until he died at 75.

Perhaps we assume too much that everyone will and should marry and have children and stay together. Even on the other side my mother's mother and her mother were both widowed with very young children and were basically single mothers for at least 20 or 30 years

After 19 almost 20 years married I did a fair bit of dating and it was good. I met a lot of nice men in my 40s but I decided more recently I really like being on my own and I don't want more children and I am very happy.

@SilenceIsNotAvailable to be fair, this starting to happen - although we still have some way to go. Certainly amongst my peers if a middle-aged guy suddenly hooks up with a girl the age of his daughter, it tends to cause a cringe rather than a “good on ya mate!” But, by same token, the likes of Elizabeth Gilbert and Esther Perel have framed women leaving ostensibly “good” men and even being unfaithful as a journey of personal discovery or “living their truth”.

There’s a study showing millennial women are apparently as likely to have an affair as a man now too. So it does appear what you suggest might be happening.

@Misty9

So it follow then that males with less testosterone - and therefore less masculine looking - will behave less like this? Are they the 'good' men referred to in this thread? And the ones who get snapped up early?

This clearly doesn't ring true in reality.

I'm disappointed this thread hasn't given me the answers I seek ie how do I find someone like Chris Hemsworth

[quote TossaCoinToYerWitcher]@SilenceIsNotAvailable to be fair, this starting to happen - although we still have some way to go. Certainly amongst my peers if a middle-aged guy suddenly hooks up with a girl the age of his daughter, it tends to cause a cringe rather than a “good on ya mate!” But, by same token, the likes of Elizabeth Gilbert and Esther Perel have framed women leaving ostensibly “good” men and even being unfaithful as a journey of personal discovery or “living their truth”.

There’s a study showing millennial women are apparently as likely to have an affair as a man now too. So it does appear what you suggest might be happening.[/quote]
I hope you're right. It'd be n

Posted too soon!

It'd be nice to think so. Especially for those of us raising daughters. And I think lots of us raising sons are raising them as feminists in the hope they continue to treat women as equals in adulthood. We shall see!

" she ended up finding someone at work "

This is one of the best ways of finding someone because you can get to know them gradually. It's a pity that it seems to be seen as a bad thing increasingly with American influence I think. It will also decrease with more people choosing to work from home.

". I met a lot of nice men in my 40s"

Interesting. Was this through OLD and did you get the usual problems of dick picks, men not wanting to meet up, etc.?

"Well anywhere else library "

The library is a pick-up place??
I doubt it SO much.

The gym, yes, I know some people do that. You'd have to be extremely beautiful though because most people look shit when they exercise.