Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

[quote Rozziie]@Gwenhwyfar yes, she did find someone! Mid Life Ex Wife was the column. I found her so negative to be honest...I think she was dating for about a year before she met the guy, which really doesn't seem that bad?

Her writing was so negative that it made me worried and depressed and put me off OLD...looking back, I was only 29 at the time! I can't believe I was sitting there worrying about all that instead of going out and having fun. Now at nearly 36 and having wasted 18 months of dating time in the pandemic, I really regret not just going out there and enjoying myself. I will certainly be doing that now![/quote]
I remember her being annoyed that a man didn't like her because she was overweight, but she should have had full body photos as is recommended. Women are just as shallow, just that the focus will be on height rather than weight.

@Misty9

So it follow then that males with less testosterone - and therefore less masculine looking - will behave less like this? Are they the 'good' men referred to in this thread? And the ones who get snapped up early?

Are they the ones that used to be referred to as 'beta', the ones who complain about being friend zoned?

The friend zone... A non existent place where "nice guys" languish unfairly (Well, according to them anyway)

My 2 happiest relationships have been with men of equal status to me.
My most miserable was with a self appointed "alpha" what a tedious dickhead he was.

@Gwenhwyfar

Whilst some women might go for height and some men for slim I can in no way agree that women are anywhere near as superficial as men
Youth
Big hips /booty
Boobs / small or large dependant on order of the day
Small waist
Pretty face
Shaved body
Tan

God with all the porn most of them are obsessed with we need to be tall and Swedish one day , Japanese and petite the next and Brazilian with curves and booties the next and god help us if we age or get fat
You can seriously think men arnt a MILLION times more superficial

"You can seriously think men arnt a MILLION times more superficial"

They are more into looks than women, yes, but not necessarily more superficial. As has been discussed all through this thread, women often value other things such as status, wealth, power.

@washingtofold agree 🍷

@Washingtofold

Women are just as superficial, it is just that what women are looking for is different to what men are looking for. Men are more interested in looks, yes, but that isn't any different from women focusing on men's height, earning potential, solvency etc.

I am sure you will say these are not important to you, which may be the case but a lot of women find these factors very important.

There is nothing wrong with ageing, getting fat (and I am not talking about putting on a few lbs) however isn't something that needs to happen.

@DateXY I'm not sure I buy this. Most of the single women I know in their thirties ALL had the same situation as me. That is, met someone pretty young (22-25ish), thought that was 'it' and then were suddenly dumped anywhere from 29 to 35 because the man thought he could do better.

I never, ever thought I would end up single in my thirties. I was ironically probably a very good catch at 23, got loads of interest, and I decided to go for someone who was genuinely kind and thoughtful and treated me well. No mind games, no meanness. He was objectively worse looking than me and openly said he felt lucky to be with me. I was also very dedicated to him, turning down work opportunities abroad because he didn't think he'd get work there, and basically sacrificing a lot of my own dreams for what I saw as a stable future. I wanted to get married and have kids at 30ish and he was totally into it. After years of me being supportive of him and building him up, guess what happened? He got a big promotion at work and suddenly started acting like he was better than me. Turned into a really insufferable knob and eventually dumped me when I was 30 for someone he met at work.

I WISH I had 'played the field' in my twenties and got to know myself and what I did and didn't want. I thought I was doing the 'right' thing and look where it got me. I had no experience of dating and got really hurt by horrible men because I just didn't know how to screen them out. Going for the kind, quiet geeky guy didn't work out...I just ended up wasting my best years and getting strung along. At least the 'bad boys' might have been exciting and fun!

@Rozziie yep I know a couple of friends who experienced very similar - it sucks.

My long term relationship in my 20s just fizzled out - we ended up more like brother and sister. Since then I've had pretty much no luck and have given up having a family of my own now. My ex (who is genuinely lovely so I am happy for him) is now married to someone in their late 20s and they're expecting a child.

On the flip side I have friends who did as you suggest - have fun throughout their 20s. Well they're in the same position as me now. I suppose at least they had more fun though!

[quote Holowiwi]@Washingtofold

Women are just as superficial, it is just that what women are looking for is different to what men are looking for. Men are more interested in looks, yes, but that isn't any different from women focusing on men's height, earning potential, solvency etc.

I am sure you will say these are not important to you, which may be the case but a lot of women find these factors very important.

There is nothing wrong with ageing, getting fat (and I am not talking about putting on a few lbs) however isn't something that needs to happen.[/quote]
Absolutely disagree and as for the aging thing , many many men have an issue with their wives aging and then decide to chase after the younger women . Tell me how that’s not the most superficial thing in the world , to literally leave because of something the partner has ZERO control over
And as for the getting fat, sure but many men also have a major issue with women carrying even small amounts ( considering it’s natural to gain a couple pounds with each child ) how is THAT not superficial
Men have issues with changes in looks WHETHER THOSE CHANGES can be controlled or not !!!

Don’t try telling me porn is filled with women with scars who are aged because hey men don’t care if you can’t help it 😂
And with the shallow emotional depth of most men , shared history makes little difference when kiss young and pretty comes along
And the jumping from physical desire to physical desire like women are dolls in porn . - doesn’t even come close to wanting to be In a relationship with someone who is solvent . A very practical and controllable thing

You’re being very naive or deliberately disengenuous to imply men don’t leave women because they no longer find them ‘hot ‘ due to aging or changes from pregnancy ( not weight ) once another woman comes along

In my experience, men my age (early 30's) in my part of the UK either want a fuck buddy, or if they want a relationship, they want someone who'll mother them/be their skivvy, only with the added benefit of sex.

@coronaway Yeah exactly, or maybe they at least got to focus on their career or travelling or whatever they wanted to do. I feel cheated and stupid for listening to the 'find a good one in your twenties' advice. No matter how solid the relationship seems and how dedicated he seems, people change a lot in their twenties, and sometimes for the worse, like my ex did. I see now that when I first met him, he was lacking in confidence, and as soon as he felt like he was getting somewhere in life, his true patronising, pompous, superior personality came out. I basically invested in him during my twenties and got absolutely nothing out of it. I should have focused on myself and building a career and doing what I wanted to do.

It's really frustrating how often single women in their thirties are blamed for 'choosing' not to settle down earlier when the most common scenario from what I've seen is being dumped after a very long term relationship because the man suddenly thinks he can do better than when he was 25, now he has more status, money, looks, etc. I never thought my ex would do that to me after all my loyalty, but when it comes down to it, they don't care. It all means nothing. I wish I'd understood earlier in life that most people are just out for themselves and will drop you in a heartbeat if it suits them.

Part of the challenge is that some women (only some) do seem to be very attracted to men with power, career success, money et al. In your example Rozziiee, your ex seems to have benefited from you supporting him to advance his career and confidence, inadvertently making him much more attractive to some. Then he got attention he liked and decided he ‘could do better’ as you say. I agree, very unfair. Then people assume that you have been living some sort of ‘romcom life’ of endless parties and travel with eligible chaps in your twenties - and now want to settle down. This seems such a familiar assumption to men and women - annoying I know.

@Rozziie thanks for sharing, it does underline and reinforce the pressures women are under. You can make pretty much all the ‘right’ choices and still become unstuck through no fault of your own.

As this thread has gone on, and I’ve given it more thought I believe I actually now reject the premise of the question. There are no good men, and actually there never were. What there are instead are simply men, with a propensity for good and the propensity for bad. Where we fall on every given day is entirely down to the choices we make.

I think the best you can hope for is someone committed, and not necessarily to relationships per se, but to self knowledge, personal responsibility, and the integrity to commit to trying to embody the angels of their better nature more often than to the demons.

We all want love and to be loved, but actually doing that for someone else consistently isn’t easy. It never has been.

"oesn’t even come close to wanting to be In a relationship with someone who is solvent . A very practical and controllable thing"

When 'solvent' is used in dating, it doesn't have its real meaning of not being in debt, it's used for rich. It's not controllable at all.

I spent my 20's on and off with an abusive asshole it took me years to get away from, hoping he would change (he didn't). I'm glad I didn't marry him at least (we were engaged though). Now I feel like I wasted my best years on a shit head, and all the "good" men are taken.

I just want someone who's kind, decent, reasonably independent (knows how to use a washing machine, or a dry cleaning service, and has some kind of job or income), who doesn't drink lots (my ex was an alcoholic), and isn't a sexist/misogynistic moron. I don't think that's too much too ask for in a man, but soo hard to find.

They get snapped up at university, or in the 7 years following. Anyone else is probably not really serious about marriage.

I'm now leaving my DP as I've been strung along with the carrot of marriage for far too long.

Having just turned 40, with 2 small DC, I fully expect to be single for a long time, potentially the rest of my life!

I have a good career, and earn a very high wage, and it seemed my DP could not handle this or support me, as he earned half of what I did, and was very resentful of anything I ever mentioned that was work related. From what I'm reading here (given women who only want to marry up have a very small pool to choose from), it'll be much easier if I just give up now!

@Gwenhwyfar

"oesn’t even come close to wanting to be In a relationship with someone who is solvent . A very practical and controllable thing"

When 'solvent' is used in dating, it doesn't have its real meaning of not being in debt, it's used for rich. It's not controllable at all.

Well that’s NOT how IM referring to it . And even if some women do want men with financial means as you say how does that even come close to requiring someone to defy time . To the many many men who leave women because their body changes after pregnancy in entirely natural and unavoidable ways or if she gets older , for the younger women Yoh conveniently pick out ‘ one ‘ word solvent , and ignore all the multiple ways in which men penalise women for actually just undergoing the normal physical changes of time . The ways in which men are consultant of seeking some physical quality their partner doesn’t have , comparing women like meat , developing porn addictions and cheating And here you are .... all you want to notice is the word ‘ solvent ‘ interesting

@Rozziie your post illustrates exactly my previous points. Too many women waste precious years on the wrong men. If you want marriage and commitment why on earth let a guy string you along for years and years on end why he enjoys all the relationship benefits you're giving him??

Unless they have issues, guys in their 20s know within a couple of years if they want to marry the woman they're with or not. And men who are serious about marriage actually propose, they don't just sit around and do nothing or give empty promises. I know plenty of women who got engaged in their 20s. I also know other women like you and your friends, but most of the men in those situations ended up proposing to other women soon after. There are some of those men who are still not married, but they're exactly the commitment phobe types that should be avoided.

Unless the relationships started before uni, the vast majority of women I know who were in relationships that lasted around 3.5 years or more, never married that boyfriend. It's also been shown in studies, that the longer a couple lives together before marriage, the more likely they are to divorce if they do marry. Women need to stop giving men all the power and break up when proposals don't materialise (if they want commitment) and find another man.

@Holowiwi

Imagine a man who is 35, 6 feet tall, keeps himself in good shape, is doing well financially and is confident. Such a man can basically date women from 23 upwards quite easily. Men do not have any problems dating down socioeconomically. They do not prioritise the same qualities women may look for in a man. And this just a question not an attack but why would such a man date your friends when there are a lot more options available to him?

Honestly some friends of mine that fit this criteria have complained about the quality of women in the UK and have increasingly developing relationships with women from abroad.

I guess there is a disconnect somewhere.

I work with a lot of men who fit this description.

They are almost all married to women who hail from various countries in Europe.

@Edgeofacoin

It doesn't sound great but that is the reality of the situation. People may cry its not fair and complain but it does not change the outcome and it certainly won't help them.

My advice would be to start seriously looking for a good man by age 25. Either an older man (and I am not saying 40+) or find one around their age who has a lot of potential (of course this means they will have to build together and men around this age still need to develop). Women around 23-27 will have the most choice when it comes to life long partners. Avoid having random children, keep the 'must have' list really short, keep in shape and be friendly, men are really not that complicated.

"Well that’s NOT how IM referring to it ."

We're talking about the world of dating and solvent means rich, or at least, well off. Plenty have mentioned here that they want a man who owns his own home, for example.
"And here you are .... all you want to notice is the word ‘ solvent ‘ smile interesting"

I don't know what you're trying to infer with that, but you seem quite hostile, so I won't engage with your comments any more.

[quote Dervel]@Rozziie thanks for sharing, it does underline and reinforce the pressures women are under. You can make pretty much all the ‘right’ choices and still become unstuck through no fault of your own.

As this thread has gone on, and I’ve given it more thought I believe I actually now reject the premise of the question. There are no good men, and actually there never were. What there are instead are simply men, with a propensity for good and the propensity for bad. Where we fall on every given day is entirely down to the choices we make.

I think the best you can hope for is someone committed, and not necessarily to relationships per se, but to self knowledge, personal responsibility, and the integrity to commit to trying to embody the angels of their better nature more often than to the demons.

We all want love and to be loved, but actually doing that for someone else consistently isn’t easy. It never has been.[/quote]
I keep coming back and reading your comment because I think it's so true. I think being "good" isn't just a matter of character, it's something you do each day.

@Gwenhwyfar

"Well that’s NOT how IM referring to it ."

We're talking about the world of dating and solvent means rich, or at least, well off. Plenty have mentioned here that they want a man who owns his own home, for example.
"And here you are .... all you want to notice is the word ‘ solvent ‘ smile interesting"

I don't know what you're trying to infer with that, but you seem quite hostile, so I won't engage with your comments any more.

No not hostile at l just get tired of hearing how women seem to want this yet I see no evidence of women requiring men to own their own homes or even have a lot of resources prior to dating . On the counterpart most women I know met their partners when they were starting their careers and didn’t have a lot of money , nor was earning potential