Where did all the good men go in the UK?

[DadAManger]

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

"That's just life - the good ones get taken off the shelf the quickest. "

Not necessarily. Some people who don't consider themselves a good catch will get married early for fear of never finding anyone else.

"It's snobby for a woman to want a man who is her intellectual equal and has similar drive in terms of career and aspirations etc? confused"

It was nothing about being the intellectual equal and all about career status. And yes, only liking people with high status jobs is snobby. Looking down on people you consider your social inferiors is the definition of snobby.

@JanuaryJonez

Well I've got a positive tale - not me but a woman I see regularly for a beauty treatment (not want to be too outing here).

She's 43 and last year came out of a long term relationship (no DDCs) She's not what I'd call a looker and she's not particularly slim, but she's a sweet and friendly person with a successful business.

She has had spectacular success with OLD - since the offset she's had a couple of dates a week (Covid restrictions aside) and has now met a lovely guy she really likes (8 years younger) who feels the same. She said she would always have a video call first, to flag anyone really unsuitable, and can't understand why everyone doesn't do this.

It's meant she's only dated people she clicked with and, although only one worked out, she's actually remained friends with a lot of them.

I was so fascinated when she told me and can't wait for our next appointment so I can hear more!

Sounds good. There used to be a column on OLD in middle age, in the Guardian I think, and it was fascinating. I can't remember if she found someone in the end.

@MrsTerryPratchett

I married a foreigner. I can thoroughly recommend it

Same!

@EarthSight I absolutely agree! But you can be attracted to someone sexually who is not objectively good looking, but YOU fancy them. Some women seem to want OTHER people to think their OH is hot, ie 'look at Emily, didn't she land a fit man'. I've fancied people before who I can tell aren't good-looking, but there's something about them that I do fancy ☺️

It was nothing about being the intellectual equal and all about career status. And yes, only liking people with high status jobs is snobby. Looking down on people you consider your social inferiors is the definition of snobby
I agree.
One of my friends is a cafe manager. They are highly intelligent, but have no interest in pursuing a high flying career. They like generating cake recipes, trying out new dishes with the chefs, and talking to the customers. They are much happier in a job they enjoy with time to follow their other interests.

I'd understand if someone chose not to date them because they had very different lifestyle outlooks to my friend, or different priorities in life.

But it would be sheer snobbery to decide that someone who works in a cafe must be intellectually inferior.

Unfortunately some people are quite snobby. I've lost track of how many times I've been talking about postgraduate study, or wider interests with students and someone has said "so why are you a teacher then?" or "why would you give up another career to teach us? or more bluntly "don't take this the wrong way but are you not too clever to be a teacher?" They were nice students and had no intention of causing offence. Teenagers don't get those ideas from thin air.

Donitta has being a “good man” -as per the OP’s opening post - ever come into it?
In my experience the rich and/or handsome men are dicks because they can be. They get loads of women (because women like rich and handsome) and they become arrogant. The “nice guys” are nice because they’re not rich or handsome and therefore never had the opportunity to be arrogant. Imo you have to choose between attractive and nice.

@Donitta

Donitta has being a “good man” -as per the OP’s opening post - ever come into it? In my experience the rich and/or handsome men are dicks because they can be. They get loads of women (because women like rich and handsome) and they become arrogant. The “nice guys” are nice because they’re not rich or handsome and therefore never had the opportunity to be arrogant. Imo you have to choose between attractive and nice.

So according to this logic all men basically are deep down dicks and arrogant or want to behave this way but only do so when allowed to do so by having the opportunity with money and being handsome Hmmm, well who wants even a good nice one who could at any time win the lottery and become an arrogant dick ?

@Washingtofold @Donitta

imo you have to choose between attractive or nice
So only men who are objectively good looking or rich are attractive? Okay…

I hate to say it, however you realise this feeds right in to the whole misogynistic incel interpretation of women only wanting rich and hot men?

Personally I’m more with @FeistySheep on that score.

I think some men are decent but most are not. Men haven’t changed, women just no longer want to be abused, a mother to a man child or a subservient. The game is changing but the players haven’t caught up yet!

Men haven’t changed
I agree many relationship survived in the past because women didn't have a better alternative, now that they do they have less incentive to stay in a relationship where they are being exploited.
Men no longer have the leverage that they used to but are reluctant to accept this, understandable! no one cedes power willingly

My dh of 22 years is lovely and British.

@Miasicarisatia

Men haven’t changed I agree many relationship survived in the past because women didn't have a better alternative, now that they do they have less incentive to stay in a relationship where they are being exploited. Men no longer have the leverage that they used to but are reluctant to accept this, understandable! no one cedes power willingly

I generally agree - though you’ll have forgive me if becoming someone “not too intelligent” so you can “control me easily” is perhaps a bridge to far, in ceding power, even for me 😉

[quote TossaCoinToYerWitcher]**@Washingtofold* @Donitta*

imo you have to choose between attractive or nice
So only men who are objectively good looking or rich are attractive? Okay…

I hate to say it, however you realise this feeds right in to the whole misogynistic incel interpretation of women only wanting rich and hot men?

Personally I’m more with @FeistySheep on that score.[/quote]
I’m definitely not the one saying you have to choose between attractive or nice , that was Sonora’s narrative
Personally I think the majority are jerks regardless of whether they have money are attractive and are nice or or ugly and mean

Or vice versus good looking / mean , nice / ugly etc
There’s no correlation as far as I’m concerned amd no I don’t believe that narrative at all
I believe men are the ones caught up on superficial crap and porn is hugely responsible

My point was to ask donita that if she’s saying all men who are good looking and wealthy are ducks does that mean I should date others who simply can become dicks -
Not that I agree - no way - they are mostly all dicks

@Washingtofold apologies, I included you as you were part of the conversation- didn’t mean to imply that was your view too.

This isn't exclusive to men. Women that can attract a lot of make attention can be similar. Only adjusting in later life when they are the hunters instead of the hunted, so to speak.

So according to this logic all men basically are deep down dicks and arrogant or want to behave this way but only do so when allowed to do so by having the opportunity with money and being handsome
I think it has a lot to do with your experiences during your formative years. Someone who experiences being popular and desired and able to get away with messing others around will develop a different personality from someone who is unpopular and largely rejected. That goes for both men and women. People who become attractive in later life rarely become so arrogant as people who grew up being attractive.

I hate to say it, however you realise this feeds right in to the whole misogynistic incel interpretation of women only wanting rich and hot men?
And men want slim attractive women. In many cases it’s not true that incels can’t get any women at all - they just can’t get the slim attractive women they want.

@Gymsmile21 do men have the will of impetus to change though? Isn't that the worry? Maybe it's just the circles I run around in but from my social circle it's the women who tend to be very keen on relationships and the men less so. Maybe men just talk about it less than women.

@Donitta

I hate to say it, however you realise this feeds right in to the whole misogynistic incel interpretation of women only wanting rich and hot men? And men want slim attractive women. In many cases it’s not true that incels can’t get any women at all - they just can’t get the slim attractive women they want.

But if we accept this stance, it kind of undermines the assertion that these hypothetical men are being unreasonable in wanting that. Because if women want the male equivalent, then what’s the fuss?

@DadAManger

I am asking this for a friend - really!

I hear over and over now from my single friends over 30 that there is a massive shortfall in good quality men in the UK?

Do MN users and readers agree? What are your own experiences? Many happily married women on here I'm sure, so what's your view?

One thing I do notice myself - but don't necessarily share with my single friends (I like them) - is that a lot of them seem to have long lists of "must-have/must-be" points for a guy to be up to standard for them?

All the best men and women, in my opinion, are either married or in long term relationships by 30 and often get snapped up quickly even after those relationships fail.

But if we accept this stance, it kind of undermines the assertion that these hypothetical men are being unreasonable in wanting that. Because if women want the male equivalent, then what’s the fuss?
Well I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want someone you find attractive, whether that’s looks or money or whatever. What’s unreasonable is to complain when you can’t get what you want, because what you want is way out of your league. If you’re unattractive then you aren’t going to have the option to date the most attractive members of the opposite sex.

@Donitta

But if we accept this stance, it kind of undermines the assertion that these hypothetical men are being unreasonable in wanting that. Because if women want the male equivalent, then what’s the fuss? Well I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want someone you find attractive, whether that’s looks or money or whatever. What’s unreasonable is to complain when you can’t get what you want, because what you want is way out of your league. If you’re unattractive then you aren’t going to have the option to date the most attractive members of the opposite sex.

Is what men and women find attractive in a partner symmetrical though? And if not why not?

This is something I was only really made aware of when I hit my kid 30s.