So you think narcissists knows they are behaving narcissistic

[Nicky2021]

Just sat thinking.
Do you think they know exactly what they are doing and saying?
Or do you think sometimes they actually believe that how they are acting is acceptable and normal?
In my experience I genuinely believe he thinks he is behaving normally and hasn’t done anything wrong and when he tells me that I infact did these things not him, I think he genuinely believes himself.
What are your thoughts?

'now he is an adult with money he behaves like a child would'

This ^

The narc in my life has a shocking attitude to money i.e. spends it like water. All about showing off, mostly to themselves. I was once puzzled because they knew the designer brand name of......bath towels. That to me meant they knew the better than average brand of just about everything. That wasn't even scratching the surface of their need to spend, to acquire.

They think that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

The most malignant ones despise people who treat others with kindness and think that they deserve to be treated badly in return

definitely think there is a genetic factor or propensity to the trait as why do some people with narcisstic parents fail to become narcissists themselves?
Some become Narcissists and some enablers/ rescuers and in the second group you see people who themselves become vulnerable to Narcs/ abuse
With Narcs it becomes intergenerational and goes on and on down the family tree.

@Templetreebalm, definitely intergenerational but guess the cause isn't known. Science will provide the answer at some stage. It's said that physcopaths have a different brain structure that is visible on scans.

I think it depends on the intellenge level of the narcisist.

The majority don't because they are not usually into self analysis and any sort of reflection of their actions.

I do think they understand when they are in crisis or fight mode and allow their masks to slip, showing their evil side.
Frightening to see a narc rage.

All these comments and experiences are unbelievably accurate for my (thank god) ExH.
Even the excessive spending.

Now I'm out of that marriage I can 'ignore' the continued abuse I get from him on text, however how the hell do i help our 13yr old DD to deal with his behavior. She 'feels sorry' for him cos he's always right but always the victim ... maybe that's one for another thread.

Mug2018 this is exactly how I feel. I have 3 children to him. I feel guilty that I have escaped his shit but my 3 kids still have to deal with it.
One of the last straws for me was I was in a bit of pain due to a urine infection, and I was going to the toilet quite often and if I didn’t the pain was quite bad in my pelvic area.
We went out to collect food in town and the guys said it would be ready in 15 mins, so we sat outside to wait. I needed the toilet so asked him if he could drive me 5 minutes down the road to a multi storey car park where I knew there was a public toilet. Well he flipped. He was so angry that I had asked him to do this. I was so shocked at his reaction I got upset and this made him worse saying how dare you act like I am in the wrong for being annoyed at this, he told me to think about what i had asked him to do, and it was ridiculous! I should just go wee down the street at the back of the restaurant!!!!
I’ve got to admit for a second I did question myself and wonder whether I was wrong to ask him to do such a thing,,,,but in the end I trusted myself and thought no I only asked him to take me down the road for the toilet. He was shouting etc and my kids were in the back of the car and I thought no...you are wrong here not me

@Nicky2021
We used to own a futon sofa and I would take off the cover every now and then to wash it and then put it back on. This was very difficult task, in fact, futons are cumbersome and the cover shrinks a bit when washed so it takes time to do it, but I would "always" do this by myself. One night I was about to put the cover on when my DH showed up, early from work. I got really excited that he is there so he can help me. It is definitely easier to do with two pairs of hands. My DH looked at me so angry and said: "What would you do if I did not show up?!". I did not say anything but thought to myself, “I would do it by myself like I always do”.
This was in the very beginning of our relationship and it hurt, but still it did not raise the alarm inside me as it should. It took me years, decades, after I glued all these little pieces together to realize who he really is.

Someone can be a narcissist and a twat at the same time so being a narcissist doesn’t exempt them from all responsibility of their actions. It’s like depression can result in little interest in things so people let hygiene standards slip etc but it’s also possible to be depressed and be lazy at the same time, and for poor hygiene standards to have nothing to do with the depressive disorder.

loveyourself2020

I have a very similar story about hanging out the washing. I didn't know how bad it was because I didn't know that being cruel was his true personality. It horrifies me to think how hard I worked to save my painful marriage.

@loveyourself2020, your futon experience sums up life with a narcissist. You just get on with it by yourself. So being alone after the relationship at least is no longer scary because you were already alone, but with a dark cloud always looming.

@coodawoodashooda, the true personality of my husband eluded me too. For so many years I guess I wasn’t ready to accept that he was just a thoroughly nasty person.

My MIL is narc. My DH is deeply damaged by her inability to love unconditionally. He is the “black sheep” according to her since he is the only son who challenges her behaviour. He has discovered over lockdown how going NC has benefitted his whole mental well-being. He still carries guilt but recognises how unhealthy contact with his mother is.
He has learned to recognise when she is about to attack and makes a swift exit. He also realises how some of his learned behaviour re relationships is damaging and will pull himself up when he thinks he has been unreasonable.
So in answer to OPs question a true narc is totally unaware of their behaviour and it is probably inbuilt but the child of a narc can be mistaken for a narc because it is a learned response. The child can however learn how this behaviour is damaging to others with time and support.
I always suspected that MIL lacked true empathy, but she confirmed it when she couldn’t understand SIL and I discussing music that brought us to tears. She has reduced me to tears on many occasions only to tell me that I’m a silly little girl who cries to get attention. I admit I may have done this aged 6 but it didn’t get me anywhere so I soon gave up that routine.
One really weird behaviour is her favouritism. You always know whose in favour when you go in to her house because her living room walls are plastered with their photos. Currently it’s my niece, wedding photos, baby photos, holiday snaps but not one photo of anyone else in the family. It has become a standing joke with my SIL’s and me. It’s very Goldy behaviour but after nearly 30yrs we are all wise to her.

goady not goldy

[quote Fireflygal]@Templetreebalm, definitely intergenerational but guess the cause isn't known. Science will provide the answer at some stage. It's said that physcopaths have a different brain structure that is visible on scans.[/quote]
Childhood abuse damages the brain.
It doesnt develop properly.
That and the poor behavioural examples and toxic behaviour ensure that the abuse becomes intergenerational.
Psychopaths are born, Sociopaths are made.

I'm not sure. My ex used to say the maddest things that i thought he surely must believe this mad thing because its too mad to think I would believe it. I think maybe they think they are justified in behaving however they want and don't care if they hurt people along the way. So I think maybe they aren't doing it deliberately to hurt you, they are behaving entirely selfishly and don't care that you get hurt by their behaviour. Does that make sense!?

@ILoveRossGeller

I think narcissists genuinely believe they are never in the wrong

I agree. In FIL's case he is a victim of an astonishingly long list of people who have all gone no contact with him.

No insight or empathy whatsoever. And yes, at some level I feel sorry for him. He had ended up very sad and bitter through his own actions.

They behave badly because ultimately they are incredibly insecure and selfish people who act on emotion and are incapable of even considering they may have done something wrong

This sums it up nicely.

I think their feelings about themselves play a part also.
They have intense feelings that they are far superior to others, entitled and arrogant ( but off the scale)
When others dont acknowledge this they become utterly enraged and enact their rage out on others.
Because they have a perfect self image others are to blame, never them.

Other people are just "props" in their self-imagined theatre. They play the central role, and everyone else must act the part that the narcissist has created for them. If they fail to comply, all hell breaks loose.

They don't see it as their behaviour as being wrong, I think that's the key. The same way as I feel it right to give my dd the largest bit of a shared cake, a narcissist would feel it's right to take the larger bit.

So to them they are not acting inappropriately or being selfish, they are simply doing what feels right to them. Which is why they are outraged when people challenge their behaviour

My sister is a narc and she was born like it. From an early age she used to get pleasure in winding up our DMum. She used to reduce my DDad to tears of frustration. Both parents are dead now but I remember my Dad's mantra to my Mum of , 'Why is she like it Gal?' Born vile, lives a vile life. Will die vile.

My DBro's daughter has inherited the gene. Like my sister she does nothing unless it benefits her. Zero empathy. Nasty comments and put downs. Breathtaking entitled behaviour. Treats animals and people around her like shit. I can't stand being in the same room as either of them.

@GelfBride

My sister is a narc and she was born like it. From an early age she used to get pleasure in winding up our DMum. She used to reduce my DDad to tears of frustration. Both parents are dead now but I remember my Dad's mantra to my Mum of , 'Why is she like it Gal?' Born vile, lives a vile life. Will die vile.

My DBro's daughter has inherited the gene. Like my sister she does nothing unless it benefits her. Zero empathy. Nasty comments and put downs. Breathtaking entitled behaviour. Treats animals and people around her like shit. I can't stand being in the same room as either of them.

Apparently it develops around age 2 or 3.

I've often said on here that looking back I can remember seeing it in a few kids of 8 or 9. That they were horrible kids - and are horrible adults. It cant be diagnosed until adulthood but its long since formed by then.

People dont like hearing it as they like to think kids can change. But these ones don't, they just sometimes get sneaker about how they show it as they age.

I remember adults making excuses for ridiculously cruel behaviour on the basis of children being children. And feeling bloody insulted by the implication that childhood was somehow an excuse for being a horrible human being.

Kids can be selfish sometimes but not to the same extent as those ones. And if a child is continuously vindictive, that shit is NOT normal.

@sicario Other people are just "props" in their self-imagined theatre. They play the central role, and everyone else must act the part that the narcissist has created for them. If they fail to comply, all hell breaks loose.

Agree. Very useful, helpful remark.

@Templetreebalm - I think their feelings about themselves play a part also.
They have intense feelings that they are far superior to others, entitled and arrogant ( but off the scale)
When others dont acknowledge this they become utterly enraged and enact their rage out on others.
Because they have a perfect self image others are to blame, never them.

Again, most useful. Thank you.

Narcisists or in the case of the narc in my life got narc traits at the very least. If they really were a diagnosed narc they would have been president of America by now.

Apparently, one time, they were upset with me. Their complaint to me was that I had done it deliberately. OK, I had. Probably just another skirmish but they were more upset at the deliberateness of it than the thing itself.

What did that mean ? That they act with impunity because they don't do it deliberately to hurt. If others get hurt by their arrogance, self entitlement, superiority, selfishness, well that wasn't done deliberately so hurt feelings are the problem of the holder of said hurt feelings and more fool them.

Do Narcissists tend to describe themselves as perfectionists or 'type A' personality's ? Or is it just the one I know?

It makes sense to me that they think they are perfect and everyone else is not as good as they are so they will tell others they are perfectionists to describe their superiority. They can't take any form of criticism so will find any way they can to blame mistakes on others and this helps reinforce the belief that they are perfect !